Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[Class 170101]

Some operators are like that though. Its not the first time

GTR handed back the Class 317s on their first day
Greater Anglia did the same on their first day.

 

[swt_passenger]

Here you go.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/more-commuters-fewer-seats-for-squeezed-scotrail-1-3690657

That's been significantly altered since the first attempt, at least it makes sense of the numbers going to Southern now.

I see one of the commenters below the story doesn't like a couple of the noises on the 380s, the bang (presumably the VCB opening and closing at neutral sections), and the other weird sounds (presumably the usual variable frequency applied to the AC motors).

Unfortunately with every paper in the land now wanting a login I can't help to explain...

 

[SuffolkRaider]

That's been significantly altered since the first attempt, at least it makes sense of the numbers going to Southern now.

I see one of the commenters below the story doesn't like a couple of the noises on the 380s, the bang (presumably the VCB opening and closing at neutral sections), and the other weird sounds (presumably the usual variable frequency applied to the AC motors).

Unfortunately with every paper in the land now wanting a login I can't help to explain...

Yes SWT it has changed I found the original tweet from Philip Haigh from Rail mag and it said 9 and the article said so when I first read it. Am glad am not going that gaga...(yet) Surprised there wasn't an HS2 reference there every other article seems to have one

 

[petegunstone]

I thought the Fort William services were going over to 158s, with 156s staying on Stranraer services, so a third pool of 158s would be needed for Fort William.

The current WHL 156s have excellent capacity for bikes (up to 6) and outdoor/sporting equipment, which is very important given the patronage of this line. The 158s, as far as I am aware, have a much smaller such storage space which will, I fear, prove insufficient. I hope that modifications are undertaken to the 158s to improve such accommodation.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The current WHL 156s have excellent capacity for bikes (up to 6) and outdoor/sporting equipment, which is very important given the patronage of this line. The 158s, as far as I am aware, have a much smaller such storage space which will, I fear, prove insufficient. I hope that modifications are undertaken to the 158s to improve such accommodation.

Maybe the 158s will have more bike space added during the refurbishment?

 

[IworkforSRail]

Not sure what's supposed to be achieved by losing the 4 class 170s. Trains in Scotland are actually very well patronised, even outside the central belt, especially considering there's a push on these days to encourage people out of their cars.

Wasn't too keen on the HST proposal at first, I thought having all Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen services formed by 2xclass 170 might've been more appropriate. However considering that would cause a break in the gangway connection, and the class 170s are actually quite poor - their maintenance record is not great - and if one so much as coughs they *really* struggle with the Perth to Inverness service, as well as low temperatures in winter. In addition, it also takes away the frequent attaching and detaching of units which is actually fraught with risk.

Only down side with the HSTs is that they'll be pushing 40 years old soon will they not?

 

[ADRboy]

Not sure what's supposed to be achieved by losing the 4 class 170s.
?

End of the lease. Someone must be paying more £££.

 

[Steve childs]

Yes you are spot on with this. eversholt rail have had a better offer for 9 170 sets and are giving them away. Scotrail have managed to hold onto 5 sets for a while. Im sure this is covered in here somewhere. Its like a game of chess at the moment. You lose a few pieces to get the bigger prize.

 

[Rick1984]

this is not an actual suggestion, but would it be possible to modify 2 HST's to work in multiple. For example 2x four car units could start at both Queen St. and Waverly and join at say Stirling.

Obviously no real point, just something I was wondering.

 

[najaB]

this is not an actual suggestion, but would it be possible to modify 2 HST's to work in multiple.

All things are possible, but this would be expensive and have little point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only down side with the HSTs is that they'll be pushing 40 years old soon will they not?

As long as the maintenance has been kept up to date then the actual age of the units doesn't really matter that much.

 

[Bodiddly]

All things are possible, but this would be expensive and have little point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As long as the maintenance has been kept up to date then the actual age of the units doesn't really matter that much.

Are you being serious? Are you trying to say a near 40 year old train set is in the same condition as a set over 20 years It's junior because they have been periodically maintained? All I can ask is do you work in train maintenance?
I'm not doubting the HST's ability as a train and personally I will welcome them with open arms but face it, they will be pushing 50 years old when Scotrail are finished with them.
If it wasn't for the fact they are IC125's, there would be a public outcry.

 

[sprinterguy]

Only down side with the HSTs is that they'll be pushing 40 years old soon will they not?

The body shells will be around 40 years old for the oldest examples, but the power units, turbo chargers and electronics in the power cars will be more like 10 (getting on for 15, by the time they enter service with Scotrail) years old.

The coaching stock is expected to undergo a major refurbishment before entering service that will see the interiors and electrics replaced, and I would think that the bogies will also be refurbished and any corrosion issues attended to at the same time.

 

[najaB]

Are you being serious? Are you trying to say a near 40 year old train set is in the same condition as a set over 20 years It's junior because they have been periodically maintained? All I can ask is do you work in train maintenance?

It won't be in the same condition - by virtue of being older - but may not be that different in terms of availability and reliability. There are very old aircraft out there that are more reliable than newer frames because they have been very well maintained. There are, I imagine, considerable similarities between aircraft and train maintenance regimes.

 

[Gadget88]

I was absoluley staggered when I read this news. I had been following the forums about the 170's potentially going down South but never expected this.

I am stunned they would open the borders railway with no extra trains. Anyway body remember when we had the Commonwealth games last year the fleet was really stretched then.

Now I have been on the push and pull train on the Fife circle. It's comfertable but definitely from a by gone era of railways. I love going to the heritage railways and there's lots of nice steam and diesel trains down at Boness. I believe it's slow and has to pull in around South Gyle to let the fast trains pass not sure if it's because of the Fife express services. Generally these trains are very rusty and look in poor condition now. The push handle doors generally are not popular on the routes with passengers. No wi-fi either. It just doesn't seem right to see such long trains on these types of routes. I believe these are what would have been going down the East Coast lines maybe 40 years ago or something?

Even Euro star have just replaced there entire fleet with new trains and they are barely 20 years old.

Now 158 trains seem poplar on here but my experience is they are cramped when there's over crowding, lack of bike space compared to the 170, smaller Isle space, smelly and tacky now as there last refit must have been around 2004 maybe earlier? Some of them have loads of tables too and not many single seats. Plus there's the older ones without the electronic board with the destination and no wi-fi. These trains will be a good 30 years old
And in my option should be coming out of service or atleast on less busy routes.

Now I have some questions shorter trains are we talking more 158's? Two car 170's? What if there's a shortage of trains if there's maintainance? Surley a real chance of last minute service withdrawals? I heard many horror stories with Northern rail and quotes about them being 'old rust bucket' trains so basically my fears are true and Abellio Scotrail looks to be a disaster. I reckon many will later ask why Stagecoach never got it given they matched the bid. I have similar fears about East Coast too.

Both routes promised new trains but when? Are we talking about an entire fleet? These short trains will discourage passengers using the railway and by the time these new trains come the railways will be a disaster. Abellio already have q challenging year with two tunnel closures for electrification. So prices go up but below average for the rest of the UK is this why the service is falling? Who is to blame and would the same issues happen under First?

The idea of a push and pull on the Dunblane route is staggering can't get my head around it. To the passenger ten years old three cars for old train with push doors won't look great will it? There's just no way people will see old trains for modern one as a positive. Lots of questions and I wonder if we can do much like contact our local MP or start a campaign to save the 170's going off route? Only a year ago I heard it was a minimum three cars with nice new electric trains..:roll:

 

[SkinnyDave]

Stagecoach didn't bid for Scotrail franchise?? It was National Express that were very close with their bid..
Where are you hearing about push pull stock for Dunblane route? Hitachi AT200 trains are pencilled in for Dunblane services when wires go up
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To add to previous post the way it's going with GWML electrification I don't think we will be seeing HSTs delivered by Abellios proposed timetable which will be squeaky bum time..
I honestly thought they would have waited for Class 222 off MML

 

[Gadget88]

Stagecoach didn't bid for Scotrail franchise?? It was National Express that were very close with their bid..
Where are you hearing about push pull stock for Dunblane route? Hitachi AT200 trains are pencilled in for Dunblane services when wires go up
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To add to previous post the way it's going with GWML electrification I don't think we will be seeing HSTs delivered by Abellios proposed timetable which will be squeaky bum time..
I honestly thought they would have waited for Class 222 off MML

My apologies confused it with the East Coast mainline.

The problem is old trains for what maybe 5 years? And how much of the fleet is being replaced? Im sure I read 170's could remain on the Fife route?

My take on the article was push and pull maybe on Dunblane or some semi fast routes. More class 158 two carriages since there's 4 less 170's? Plus no new trains to cover the borders line?

 

[Rhydgaled]

To add to previous post the way it's going with GWML electrification I don't think we will be seeing HSTs delivered by Abellios proposed timetable

What was the timetable, I forget? East Coast doesn't have an electrification programme so will be releasing its IC125s by 2020 provided the IEPs are introduced on time. There might not be time for Abellio's refurbishment on those sets prior to 2020 though.

I am stunned they would open the borders railway with no extra trains.

Wasn't the plan to free up DMUs for the borders by electrifying some lines around Glasgow and using EMUs there? With the 4x 170s taken by Southern though things could be rather difficult.

Even Euro star have just replaced there entire fleet with new trains and they are barely 20 years old.

Their entire fleet? They are replacing some of them yes but I didn't think it was all.

Now 158 trains seem poplar on here but my experience is they are cramped when there's over crowding, lack of bike space compared to the 170, smaller Isle space, smelly and tacky now as there last refit must have been around 2004 maybe earlier?

Only problem with 158s in my opinion is that there aren't enough of them, if you saw the Arriva Trains Wales ones a while a back when they had just come out of refurbishment some passengers were thinking they were new trains. Similarly the refurbished mark 3 stock on the WAG Express is like new from a passenger's perspective except for the slam-doors.

 

[sprinterguy]

What was the timetable, I forget? East Coast doesn't have an electrification programme so will be releasing its IC125s by 2020 provided the IEPs are introduced on time. There might not be time for Abellio's refurbishment on those sets prior to 2020 though.

Scotrail are expecting their refurbished HST sets to be entering service in December 2018.

HST replacement on the East Coast is expected to begin a year later than the introduction of IEP trains on Great Western, so we'll have to see what happens in terms of timescales there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even Euro star have just replaced there entire fleet with new trains and they are barely 20 years old.

Eurostars’ entire fleet is not being replaced: If I remember correctly, fourteen of the “Three Capitals” Eurostar sets (half the fleet) will be withdrawn from service, as a result of procuring new e320 Velaro units to work additional routes that will not now be introduced in full.

High speed trains often have a shorter in service life due to working punishing high mileage diagrams that demand high performance for extended periods of time (the glaring exception to the rule here being our very own “High Speed Trains”, which look set to go on forever ).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem is old trains for what maybe 5 years? And how much of the fleet is being replaced? Im sure I read 170's could remain on the Fife route?

My take on the article was push and pull maybe on Dunblane or some semi fast routes. More class 158 two carriages since there's 4 less 170's? Plus no new trains to cover the borders line?

24 x 4-car Hitachi electric units will replace a peak vehicle requirement of 16 x 3-car class 170 diesel units on Edinburgh to Glasgow services from summer 2017 onwards.

46 x 3-car Hitachi electric units will replace an unspecified number of diesel units on Edinburgh/Glasgow to Dunblane/Alloa Central Belt suburban services circa 2018/2019.

27 refurbished HST sets will be introduced onto Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness, and Aberdeen to Inverness, services, in December 2018, replacing a number of class 170 units and allowing a corresponding increase in the Perth to Inverness service to hourly.

The Borders line will be worked by class 158s. I think that Scotrail are meant to be taking on a second loco-hauled set for the Fife Circle in the interim to cover the shortfall, but in the short to medium term it is going to be tight.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now I have been on the push and pull train on the Fife circle. It's comfertable but definitely from a by gone era of railways. I love going to the heritage railways and there's lots of nice steam and diesel trains down at Boness. I believe it's slow and has to pull in around South Gyle to let the fast trains pass not sure if it's because of the Fife express services. Generally these trains are very rusty and look in poor condition now. The push handle doors generally are not popular on the routes with passengers. No wi-fi either. It just doesn't seem right to see such long trains on these types of routes. I believe these are what would have been going down the East Coast lines maybe 40 years ago or something?

Air conditioned mark 2 carriages like these were introduced new to the East Coast main line forty years ago. They were to be seen in great numbers on the West Coast main line up until a little over ten years ago.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was absoluley staggered when I read this news. I had been following the forums about the 170's potentially going down South but never expected this.

If you'd been following this subject here you'd already have known that it was definitely happening. Posts from people doubting it resulted in references to announcements from GTR/Southern explicitly confirming it.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes you are spot on with this. eversholt rail have had a better offer for 9 170 sets and are giving them away.

Really? I'd be surprised if TSGN wouldn't pay similar leasing charges for the trains as Abellio would have done, had they had still needed them.

 

[Altnabreac]

My apologies confused it with the East Coast mainline.

The problem is old trains for what maybe 5 years? And how much of the fleet is being replaced? Im sure I read 170's could remain on the Fife route?

My take on the article was push and pull maybe on Dunblane or some semi fast routes. More class 158 two carriages since there's 4 less 170's? Plus no new trains to cover the borders line?

Relax.

The loss of a few 170s in the short term is inconvenient but it's a relatively small number of carriages and the extra loco hauled train (almost certainly on the Fife Circle not Dunblane) should make up some of the difference.

Overall the new franchise has a lot more carriages than now, but the extra capacity won't be available until the extra trains arrive from 2016 onwards.

Here's an approximate timeline. My guesses have a ? after them.

April 2015
4 x 3 car 170s to Thameslink
Second (6car?) loco hauled train on Fife Circle.

September 2015
5 x 2 car 158s needed for Borders Rail

December 2015
7 x 4 car 321s arrive from England (London Midland?) to lengthen busy Glasgow suburban services.

December 2016
Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk electrified. First Hitachi AT200s arrive replacing 170s.
Refurbished 158s on West Highland Line?

December 2017
Full service of E-G using 24 x 4 car new electric Hitachi AT200s.
5 x 3 car 170s subleased from Thameslink leave?
Loco hauled trains released?

December 2018
Entry into service of most of the 46 x 3 car new electric Hitachi AT200s.
Used on:
Edinburgh - Dunblane
Glasgow - Dunblane
Glasgow - Alloa
Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld
Cascade on existing electrified lines to release 314s.
Entry into service of refurbished HSTs. 13x 2+5 and 14x 2+4.
Used on:
Glasgow - Aberdeen
Glasgow - Inverness
Edinburgh - Aberdeen
Edinburgh - Inverness
Aberdeen - Inverness
Scotrail release remaining 50 x 3 car class 170s?
Scotrail release (scrap) 16 x 3 car class 314s?

December 2019
Edinburgh - Glasgow via Shotts electrified and uses remaining 3 car AT200 trains.

December 2020
Glasgow - East Kilbride, Glasgow - Anniesland via Maryhill electrified?
If Abellio receives extension from 7 to 10 years an additional 10 x 3 car AT200s ordered from Hitachi.
16 x 2 car 156s released?
8 x 2 car 156s released?

Additional Scotrail trains by carriage numbers:
28 Class 321s
234 AT200s
121 HSTs
30 extra AT200s if franchise extended
Total 413 extra coaches

Released Scotrail trains by carriage numbers:
177 Class 170s
32 Class 156s
16 Class 158s
48 Class 314s
6 Loco Hauled Mark 2s
Total 279 carriages released

Temporary Scotrail train during first years of franchise
6 Loco Hauled Mark 2s

Net increase in carriages 413 - 279 = 134 extra carriages by 2020.

 

[Gadget88]

Certainly the long term looks more promising however its just the short term which worries me.

I have questions over how Abellio will run Scotrail. How will paper free tickets affect people who rarley travel by rail? Who is paying for these new trains? Obviously not Abellio? Are Abellio paying for the refurbnisment of existing units?

Also if there's extra stations opened in the time frame it could affect carriage numbers. Winchburgh and Bannockburn look promising after electrification. Edinbrugh Gateway won't affect much however I question the need for it as it adds time onto the Fife Circle trains. Will some Express services miss it like Edinburgh Park?

Also come 2025 where will Scorail be? Will we be looking at Driverless trains like Glasgow underground? Will ticket offices stay open? Will the new platforms at Waverly be in operation?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One more question.

Will Scotrail take some of the stock from East Coast when they pull there older trains out of service? Oh and when will these push and pull trains finally be left for here herritiage railways? 2-3 years?

 

[northwichcat]

Are Abellio paying for the refurbnisment of existing units?

Existing trains which are not currently accessible or which have toilets which dump waste on the tracks will be upgraded over the next few years at the cost of the ROSCOs. So the 156s will see new accessible retention toilets and every train which does not have PIS will get it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Will Scotrail take some of the stock from East Coast when they pull there older trains out of service?

They aren't planning to. They are planning to take on FGW HSTs which will be released earlier than East Coast stock.

 

[laseandre]

Edinbrugh Gateway won't affect much however I question the need for it as it adds time onto the Fife Circle trains. Will some Express services miss it like Edinburgh Park?

The whole point of the station is to act as an interchange with the tram line to the airport, acting as a mini-EARL. So there won't be many passengers starting or ending their journeys there.

 

[clc]

Altnabreac, re the timing of the introduction of rolling stock, according to Abellio the HST's will be phased in from the middle of 2018:

http://www.abellio.com/scotrail-passenger-story/true-intercity-railway-network-scotland
And the Hitachi trains from the middle of 2017:

http://www.abellio.com/scotrail-pas...edinburgh-glasgow-and-stirling-alloa-dunblane

 

[Class83]

The whole point of the station is to act as an interchange with the tram line to the airport, acting as a mini-EARL. So there won't be many passengers starting or ending their journeys there.

Isn't it a replacement for South Gyle so there should be no impact on journey times?

 

[aylesbury]

Exiting times for Scotland ahead new rolling stock new services new stations don't complain about Abello you should live in England virtually none of the above.Crossrail ,Thameslink only new projects.

 

[laseandre]

Isn't it a replacement for South Gyle so there should be no impact on journey times?

I don't believe so? It would only add maybe 2 minutes to journey times, and I've seen far stupider and closer station placement. Perhaps skip-stop, maybe?

 

[Starmill]

The Off-Peak Return is £58.00. The Anytime Return is only £68.80. A shame that you weren't asked and able to clarify. All the same the excess if you were to board a train departing before 0915 is only £10.80.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

All things are possible, but this would be expensive and have little point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As long as the maintenance has been kept up to date then the actual age of the units doesn't really matter that much.

Indeed, as a testament to Scotrail's maintenance regime, a ROSCO that will remain nameless described the condition of their units, pre hand-back as outstanding and better than any other TOC had done.

 

[ainsworth74]

If people wish to discuss Scottish economics and its support or otherwise by/for the rest of the UK I would ask that they do so on a new thread and leave this one for discussion of the new ScotRail franchise.