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transmilenio - what can the UK learn from this system?

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mrmartin

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I'm currently in Bogota, Colombia. They have a very well developed bus rapid transit system that uses up to 4 dedicated lanes in the median of roads/highways (two for each direction). This is complemented with dedicated grade separated flyovers so the buses can change routes.

I'm not sure if this system could ever work in the UK, but it seems very efficient - the express buses missing stops out mean you can get across this vast city very quickly.

The only problem is the chronic overcrowding at peak times, especially at the stations. They're not wide enough for the passenger flow which means you have to fight your way against the flow to get off.
 
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There is good footage somewhere on Youtube of it - of a bag thief in one of the bus stations, stealing a bag, running and forcing open a platform door... and 'meeting' the 1728 from Llevant at 60mph. :o
 

jopsuk

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Can't work in the UK- for a start, our cities (thankfully) don't have extensive massive freeways that could be converted. Some of Birmingham's dual carriageway ring road might sort of work?
 

Deerfold

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I think you have to have cities designed from the start for this sort of scheme (or massive demolition schemes) for this to work.

And an establishment that doesn't see see bus travel as second class.
 

Bletchleyite

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And an establishment that doesn't see see bus travel as second class.

That is the biggest single problem affecting urban transport in the UK, IMO. The bus companies are trying with things like Stagecoach Gold, Arriva Sapphire and Max etc, but it's hard to change an in-grained view.

Edit: The Dutch also tried a similar concept, still going I believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuidtangent

Neil
 
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radamfi

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The South American busways carry vast numbers of people. Capital cost is a bigger deal in that part of the world so it is easier to justify mammoth busway projects over rail. For similar volumes here in Europe we would generally go for trams/metros, keeping busways for lower volumes.

Edit: The Dutch also tried a similar concept, still going I believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuidtangent

That branding is no longer used and that route is now part of the R-net, which is a branding used to represent faster buses, trams and local trains in the Randstad area of the country.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-net

That particular busway has had a recent extension to the south east of the airport. But as I've posted on various threads, whilst that is a spectacular route, that is just one of the many busways in the country. One of the most recent openings was between Zoetermeer and the metro line between Den Haag and Rotterdam, enabling the withdrawal of the direct bus between Zoetermeer and Rotterdam. The whole bus network of Almere (new town twinned with Milton Keynes) is on exclusive busways. A number of corridors in Utrecht, Groningen and Eindhoven have lengthy sections of segregated busways. Bus routes on motorways often allow the use of the hard shoulder during traffic jams and there are some motorway junctions that are only for buses.

I don't particularly rate the British attempts at 'quality' such as Stagecoach Gold as they don't generally involve bus priority, they often don't have air-conditioning or double glazing (to prevent windows steaming up), they often don't use next stop indicators or real time information and even involve a significant amount of driver cash payment. Those are the basics, and things like leather seats and WiFi are gimmicks by comparison.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I don't particularly rate the British attempts at 'quality' such as Stagecoach Gold as they don't generally involve bus priority, they often don't have air-conditioning or double glazing (to prevent windows steaming up), they often don't use next stop indicators or real time information and even involve a significant amount of driver cash payment. Those are the basics, and things like leather seats and WiFi are gimmicks by comparison.

Not strictly true. The biggest conglomeration of those type of routes is probably Oxford (4 Gold and 1 Sapphire) and that does have extensive bus priority. I could say the same about Newcastle etc

Air conditioning and double glazing are not common, but then again, the european penchant for @rse numbing seats is something we're not forced to deal with either (apart from a spell around the millennium when First and Arriva went down that line, and various Dawson Rentals vehicles with urban 90 seats).

Leather seats and wifi might be seen as gimmicks but then again, to the vast majority of passengers, so are next stop announcements. However, I'm just pleased that companies are looking to actively grow their businesses in this way and, by way of an example, my mother used the Sapphire service from Darlington to Durham and absolutely loved it. It may not have had double glazing but it was warm, clean and had comfortable seating.

Back to the wider point, and apologies for the broken record, but Deerfold is spot on. We had a prime minster in Thatcher who stated that anyone in their 40's who travelled by bus could be regarded as a failure, and actively pursued a pro car agenda. We are still seeing the effects of those policies now
 

Bletchleyite

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Air conditioning and double glazing are not common, but then again, the european penchant for @rse numbing seats is something we're not forced to deal with either (apart from a spell around the millennium when First and Arriva went down that line, and various Dawson Rentals vehicles with urban 90 seats).

To be fair you don't need aircon to stop the musty bus smell and steaming up (the two are connected, of course) - you just need a few extractor fans. London buses all have these now, and while noisy they are very effective.

As for seats - the purpose of buses tends to differ from the UK - in much of Europe a bus is what you use to get to the nearest rapid transit rail station, not for an hour into the city centre.

Back to the wider point, and apologies for the broken record, but Deerfold is spot on. We had a prime minster in Thatcher who stated that anyone in their 40's who travelled by bus could be regarded as a failure, and actively pursued a pro car agenda. We are still seeing the effects of those policies now

Indeed.

Neil
 

TheGrandWazoo

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To be fair you don't need aircon to stop the musty bus smell and steaming up (the two are connected, of course) - you just need a few extractor fans. London buses all have these now, and while noisy they are very effective.

As for seats - the purpose of buses tends to differ from the UK - in much of Europe a bus is what you use to get to the nearest rapid transit rail station, not for an hour into the city centre.

Neil

Absolutely, there are some differences in the UK that do illustrate why we do things differently in terms of topography and history (e.g. railway entrepreneurs and the Beeching axe). Not everything can be applied to the UK though I've experienced some longish urban journeys in continental Europe with those wretched seats!

Air con or air ventilation of course does, in its various forms, results in increased fuel consumption, as does double glazing et al. I guess part of the issue for operators is that it is easy to quantify the extra cost (e.g. MPG, capital cost) but not easy to quantify the benefit (how many extra passengers you get for that extra cost).
 

GrimsbyPacer

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbus_(transport)

I think that the dedicated 4-lane bus lanes used in Bogota would allow these high speed Superbuses being designed to run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The*Superbus*is a prototype high speed electric*coach*that is capable of carrying 23 passengers at speeds of up to 250 kilometres per hour (160*mph) on specially designed segregated highwaylanes
Anyone like the sounds of this?
Personally I think it's a bad idea but it's interesting.
 

edwin_m

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There's a two-lane busway in Istanbul which can manage a bus every 20 seconds or so. It does this by having them running in squadrons of four, which all stop at a platform four buses long. Incidentally part is in the middle of a dual carriageway and adopts left hand running so it can use island platforms.

Generally speaking busways are more labour-intensive than light rail because the largest bus (even a double-artic) is smaller than the largest tram. So they are less likely to be used in "western" economies where there is often more capital available but wages are higher. Energy costs and the relationship between availability/price of electricity and oil may also be significant, as a busway could be using up to 50% more energy than a tramway of the same capacity.
 

radamfi

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The WiFi issue is being discussed in the rail section at the moment and there is quite a debate as to whether it is worthwhile. For buses I would say it is even less important as buses tend to travel through urban areas where signal is good so people can use their own data quite happily. On the other hand, bus WiFi is pretty cheap to install so it is a 'quick win'.

Next stop indicators I would say are almost essential, rather than a gimmick, and that is why they've been around for so long outside the UK. I can remember many times when I've had an A to Z in my hand trying to follow the route and guess where the bus stop I want to get off is. That was made extra difficult by the lack of bus stops names which the UK has belatedly implemented, but still made a pigs ear out of it.

In the Netherlands, Switzerland and elsewhere, they have taken it to the next level, showing the names and arrival times of the next few stops and the last stop, and showing real time times of connecting bus/tram/train times when arriving at interchange points.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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The WiFi issue is being discussed in the rail section at the moment and there is quite a debate as to whether it is worthwhile. For buses I would say it is even less important as buses tend to travel through urban areas where signal is good so people can use their own data quite happily. On the other hand, bus WiFi is pretty cheap to install so it is a 'quick win'.

Next stop indicators I would say are almost essential, rather than a gimmick, and that is why they've been around for so long outside the UK. I can remember many times when I've had an A to Z in my hand trying to follow the route and guess where the bus stop I want to get off is. That was made extra difficult by the lack of bus stops names which the UK has belatedly implemented, but still made a pigs ear out of it.

In the Netherlands, Switzerland and elsewhere, they have taken it to the next level, showing the names and arrival times of the next few stops and the last stop, and showing real time times of connecting bus/tram/train times when arriving at interchange points.

My experience, living near Bristol where wifi is now pretty common, is that a lot of people benefit as not everyone has unlimited data allowances and that even in a major city, 3G isn't uniformly prevalent. Another point is that, with Sapphire in particular but also with a number of Gold routes, is that they're interurban and the journey duration is longer.

Now, in terms of next stop announcements, I do take your point. However, I'd challenge how typical you are a bus user. Not a criticism, as I'm much the same. Yet the vast, vast majority of bus users do not require next stop announcements as they get the same local service (often the same journey) each time. Maybe more useful on the 376 Bristol to Street (more tourists etc) but less useful on the 36 Bristol to Withywood
 

Polo Mint

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With big cities having a more devolved transport plans I can see guided bus ways and the like being introduced, but anything like these foreign systems would be very expensive and would require demolition of city centre structures.

Not strictly true. The biggest conglomeration of those type of routes is probably Oxford (4 Gold and 1 Sapphire) and that does have extensive bus priority. I could say the same about Newcastle etc

Air conditioning and double glazing are not common, but then again, the european penchant for @rse numbing seats is something we're not forced to deal with either (apart from a spell around the millennium when First and Arriva went down that line, and various Dawson Rentals vehicles with urban 90 seats).

Leather seats and wifi might be seen as gimmicks but then again, to the vast majority of passengers, so are next stop announcements. However, I'm just pleased that companies are looking to actively grow their businesses in this way and, by way of an example, my mother used the Sapphire service from Darlington to Durham and absolutely loved it. It may not have had double glazing but it was warm, clean and had comfortable seating.

Back to the wider point, and apologies for the broken record, but Deerfold is spot on. We had a prime minster in Thatcher who stated that anyone in their 40's who travelled by bus could be regarded as a failure, and actively pursued a pro car agenda. We are still seeing the effects of those policies now

First have continuously introduced new buses with leather seats since 2012, I expect this will continue into the long term. It is interesting to note that Stagecoach have not copied this.

The comments about Thatcher are childish. How on earth is creating prosperity and allowing less well off people to purchase cars seen as stigmatising people in their 40's travelling by bus?

Bus transport has always been terrible, Thatcher or no Thatcher it will never be great.

The WiFi issue is being discussed in the rail section at the moment and there is quite a debate as to whether it is worthwhile. For buses I would say it is even less important as buses tend to travel through urban areas where signal is good so people can use their own data quite happily. On the other hand, bus WiFi is pretty cheap to install so it is a 'quick win'.

Next stop indicators I would say are almost essential, rather than a gimmick, and that is why they've been around for so long outside the UK. I can remember many times when I've had an A to Z in my hand trying to follow the route and guess where the bus stop I want to get off is. That was made extra difficult by the lack of bus stops names which the UK has belatedly implemented, but still made a pigs ear out of it.

In the Netherlands, Switzerland and elsewhere, they have taken it to the next level, showing the names and arrival times of the next few stops and the last stop, and showing real time times of connecting bus/tram/train times when arriving at interchange points.

I am not convinced about these 'next stop' announcements, they always seem to be faulty or broken, and most bus stops are simply named after a road, which doesn't add any information. Maybe they could work in tourist areas, but in small towns people know where they are alighting.

I would like real time information at bus stops so people can see when the next bus is coming, but in rough areas they wouldn't last 5 minutes, and again I can imagine them being fault.
 

radamfi

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I am not convinced about these 'next stop' announcements, they always seem to be faulty or broken, and most bus stops are simply named after a road, which doesn't add any information. Maybe they could work in tourist areas, but in small towns people know where they are alighting.

When giving directions by public transport stop names are very useful. Businesses and organisations can tell visitors to get off at xxx bus stop. The timetable can give a list of stops so you can follow the list until you get to the stop you want. If the vehicle is dedicated to that route then you can follow the list of stops on the map. As I pointed out earlier, in many places the names of the next few stops are displayed on a monitor so you have even earlier warning that your stop is coming soon.

The announcement/display can also tell you which buses/trams/metros/railway stations you can change to.

When following advice from journey planners you definitely need stop names.

I shouldn't really have to explain this. I guess it is the British culture at work here again.

Only in Britain would it be deemed pointless to have next stop announcements and displays for buses but essential for trams. In Manchester it would be normal to say "get off at xxx tram stop" but not really normal to say "get off at xxx bus stop". In other countries, buses and trams are of near equal importance and so it would be equally normal to say both.
 
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pne

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Next stop indicators I would say are almost essential, rather than a gimmick, and that is why they've been around for so long outside the UK. I can remember many times when I've had an A to Z in my hand trying to follow the route and guess where the bus stop I want to get off is. That was made extra difficult by the lack of bus stops names which the UK has belatedly implemented, but still made a pigs ear out of it.

What I also found highly annoying is the fact that the bus timetables, at least in the towns I had to look up, do not list all bus stops!

So you have nearly no way of telling (at least from the downloadable PDF timetables) which stops will be served by a given bus nor what time they might arrive or depart there.

Often, there might be a bus stop closer to where you actually want to go, but unless you have local knowledge or look it up on something like Traveline you have no idea. You shouldn't have to do that, in my opinion.
 

Bletchleyite

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When giving directions by public transport stop names are very useful.

Indeed; I agree with your whole post. Germany has had named stops since the year dot, and before technology started being used to display the next stop (in the 1990s, though manually operated by the driver) the driver had a microphone to call them.

They (edit: next stop announcements) are one of the most useful features in attracting passengers to use the bus - "where do I get off" is a common fear - even with a smartphone it might not be easy to find out where the nearest stop is. London have seen sense, but it's taking a long time to roll out across the country, and even the London system is basic - no information on connections, for instance.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Often, there might be a bus stop closer to where you actually want to go, but unless you have local knowledge or look it up on something like Traveline you have no idea. You shouldn't have to do that, in my opinion.

Geographical maps like these:
http://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/assets/attach/21626/Urban Map Nov 2014 APPROVED.pdf

are excellent for that purpose, rather than a timetable the length of your arm. Germany has (to mention it again :) ) used these for years; in the UK they are a relatively recent thing and aren't used everywhere, instead some areas use Tube map style maps which are of far less use.

Neil
 
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kevjs

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With regards to WiFi I know some people who's only access to the internet is when they are on the bus, and that helps them choose one operator over the other. Even when people have 4g access on there phones the WiFi is handy as it's usually faster, and more usefully doesn't chew through your tiny allowance.

The next stop announcements and on screen displays are pretty useless on your regular route, but are really useful when traveling to an unfamiliar part of the city, the screens being extra handy as they show the next few stops, and also highlight the big tourist venues.

As for the real time departure signs we've had them for over a decade now, and although they occasionally go wrong (it seams the provider here can't do a timetable update without buggering them up for 48 hours) they all seam to be managing to survive the punishment of the local ruffians without missing a beat.

Some additional real time info, and perhaps the tweets/Facebook posts NCT put out would help explain the delays you are currently sat in (one or more of NET construction, A453 widening, Ring Road widening, and multi vehicle accident....)
 

edwin_m

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The comments about Thatcher are childish. How on earth is creating prosperity and allowing less well off people to purchase cars seen as stigmatising people in their 40's travelling by bus?

In itself it isn't - although there are large swathes of the country for which any suggestion of Thatcher creating prosperity would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic for the people affected.

However the accompanying mood music was basically as suggested, that anyone who used a bus was a loser. Accompanied by a policy of deregulation which turned what was generally a pretty decent service into something excellent on a few routes and appalling or non-existent on many others.

Contrast with places like Germany where most people have the wherewithal to own a car, but there is a comprehensive public transport available and little stigma attached to using it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Contrast with places like Germany where most people have the wherewithal to own a car, but there is a comprehensive public transport available and little stigma attached to using it.

Indeed. Just because you have a car does not mean it is appropriate to use it for all journeys. I do, but I also use bus, train, bike and air (and probably other stuff) as and when it makes sense.

Neil
 

pne

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Geographical maps like these:
http://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/assets/attach/21626/Urban Map Nov 2014 APPROVED.pdf

are excellent for that purpose, rather than a timetable the length of your arm.

Those are indeed very useful for seeing which streets busses run along and/or which places of interest they run past.

They don't tell you about stop names (though I've seen such maps with stop names), and more importantly, don't tell you when the bus gets there!

If you want to avoid a timetable the length of your arm, two possibilities I can think of are having two timetables (one with the most important stops, one with all of them, thus giving people a choice), and having a "timeline" at the top showing all the stops and how long it takes (in minutes) to get to each one from the start (assuming that intervals between stops are more or less constant throughout the day).

This is, incidentally, the solution I remember from the underground train timetables from my youth, though in later years, they switched to listing all of the stops with the time at each stop, even if that made for some rather long pages on lines such as the U1!

If there are multiple routes, there could be three or four such "timelines".

Then based on those, you could interpolate between the stops shown explicitly and how long it takes, to find out when the bus will leave or arrive at intermediate stops.

(Timetables at bus stops are often similar, aren't they: listing just departure times, and then in a separate area, showing how long it will take to each of the following bus stops.)
 

radamfi

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If you've got a smartphone, you can usually get the list of stops through an app. For example Bus Scout for Britain and OVinfo for the Netherlands. If you access the departure listings on the Belgian, German and Swiss railway apps, you can get stop listings for local buses and trams.

The enthusiast website "OV in Nederland" has a web page for every bus route in the country with a full list of stops, like this:

http://wiki.ovinnederland.nl/wiki/Lijn_300_Haarlem_Station_-_Amsterdam_Bijlmer_ArenA

There is also a frequency guide and some description about the route. You can even click on the link to find historical routes with the same number. There is also some coverage of Belgium and Germany.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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With regards to WiFi I know some people who's only access to the internet is when they are on the bus, and that helps them choose one operator over the other. Even when people have 4g access on there phones the WiFi is handy as it's usually faster, and more usefully doesn't chew through your tiny allowance.

The next stop announcements and on screen displays are pretty useless on your regular route, but are really useful when traveling to an unfamiliar part of the city, the screens being extra handy as they show the next few stops, and also highlight the big tourist venues.

My point entirely. RTPI is much more important for the vast majority of passengers (reliability is usually THE most important factor for passengers). Next stop indicators are not much of an issue for locals and most passengers are local (though I appreciate that in some more touristy areas, then it is perhaps worth doing). Wifi is now fast becoming a human right and yes, not everyone has an unlimited data allowance!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In itself it isn't - although there are large swathes of the country for which any suggestion of Thatcher creating prosperity would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic for the people affected.

However the accompanying mood music was basically as suggested, that anyone who used a bus was a loser. Accompanied by a policy of deregulation which turned what was generally a pretty decent service into something excellent on a few routes and appalling or non-existent on many others.

Contrast with places like Germany where most people have the wherewithal to own a car, but there is a comprehensive public transport available and little stigma attached to using it.

I agree with your view....to an extent. I dislike most of what Mrs Thatcher did, in terms of the long term affect on social cohesion etc. Some of the impact on the coalfields was nothing short of vindictive.

Similarly, the idea that only losers use public transport was unnecessary, and we're now seeing that in the rail renaissance but then that's more middle class and palatable to the Tory grandees!

However, I really don't go with the idea that it was the land of milk and honey before deregulation. It wasn't. The bus industry was massively supported directly in terms of revenue support from local authorities and ratepayers. The NBC also ran a huge deficit, much of which was written off, and then there was the new bus grant that was another massive cost. In that time, my local firm went from having 300 million passenger journeys in 1954 to having 112 million in 1979 (with no appreciable loss in territory/operations save losing one small depot).

Thatcher did some terrible things, but we were a country that had received a Greek style IMF bailout in 1976/7. Things were broken, though the rather sociopathic "if it's not hurting, it's not working" really showed no empathy for those affected by her government's policies.
 

Bletchleyite

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My point entirely. RTPI is much more important for the vast majority of passengers (reliability is usually THE most important factor for passengers).

When in an area I know well, I am a big fan of the Arriva app - it offers real time tracking on a map, which is that much more useful than just an expected time when it's your local route, as you know pinch-points and the likes that RTPI can't really predict. You can also see when the bus has actually left the terminus rather than just a predicted time based on when it is planned to.

It's funny, really - Arriva are I think typically seen as quite conservative - Stagecoach are the flashy innovators. But in terms of digital stuff they're way ahead of their time - the map covering all their tracked services nationally, as well as a national roll-out of mobile ticketing about 4 years ago and well before everyone was on smartphones.

Neil
 
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Robertj21a

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I think that, whether you liked Mrs Thatcher or not, at that time the country really did need some positive action from *someone* to resolve long-running problems.

She just happened to be there at the time - and had the 'balls' to get on with the job. Shame that her predecessors allowed the country to get in to that state.
 

radamfi

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My point entirely. RTPI is much more important for the vast majority of passengers (reliability is usually THE most important factor for passengers). Next stop indicators are not much of an issue for locals and most passengers are local (though I appreciate that in some more touristy areas, then it is perhaps worth doing). Wifi is now fast becoming a human right and yes, not everyone has an unlimited data allowance!

If you are only interested in your existing passengers then you don't need next stop(s) information. As long as those passengers don't ever want to go somewhere other than where they already go. I suspect it is no surprise that the few operators that are always quoted as being exceptional in the UK all have next stop indicators. If I read the earlier post correctly, it would appear that NCT in Nottingham even have the next few stops. Metrobus have the next few stops on their latest Fastway buses.

I don't have unlimited data. I could if I wanted but it would be a waste of money. I don't even use the whole amount that I pay for. Most people pay for a higher allowance than they need because of the fear of going over it. I also wonder how much data bus passengers actually use, given you shouldn't be using it for streaming. Even when free bus/train WiFi is offered, I don't usually use it because my own data is usually faster. I am also aware of the security issues surrounding public WiFi and it is a bit of pain to use my VPN when browsing, and which makes the internet even slower.

Having said that WiFi is easy and cheap to install so you might as well have it.

However, I really don't go with the idea that it was the land of milk and honey before deregulation. It wasn't.

We always compare with the pre-86 situation, but I don't think it is that relevant. There is a particular and peculiar British culture of operation that started well before 1986.

For example, charging per vehicle is common to operations in Britain and some former colonies, regardless whether the buses are tendered, deregulated or state owned. When Sheffield has its 5p fare, it was still 5p per vehicle, so changing cost 10p. That may seem a silly thing to worry about, given we are only talking about 10p, which wasn't a lot even in the 80s, but there was still the principle of making people pay more to change, which has probably contributed to the well known, but typically British, aversion to changing. They could have had a higher flat fare but which allowed transfers.

Buses in Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland are state owned and charge per vehicle. Buses in Great Britain charged per vehicle before deregulation. Same goes for Hong Kong, which still follows many of the 'quirks' of British operation, despite passing back to China quite a long time ago now.

For some reason, countries independent from the UK choose to copy British bad habits instead of emulating good practice from mainland Europe. Despite Ireland's bitter struggle against British rule, their buses are run very similarly to how buses were run in Britain before 1986.

British buses both before and after 1986 have persevered with drivers wasting so much time on ticketing. That is totally unnecessary. You don't need low or flat fares. In any case, boarding was tedious before 1986 even in places where fares were almost free. Modern technology helps, but is not necessary. Off bus ticketing for single fares has existed for decades outside the UK.

So, even if British buses were re-regulated with good funding, most things would still be the same and it would be highly unlikely that best practice from the continent would be copied. No matter how many times you talk about the importance of not having to pay to change, or the importance of next stop indicators etc., it falls on deaf ears.
 

Bletchleyite

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So, even if British buses were re-regulated with good funding, most things would still be the same and it would be highly unlikely that best practice from the continent would be copied. No matter how many times you talk about the importance of not having to pay to change, or the importance of next stop indicators etc., it falls on deaf ears.

The usual argument about paying per vehicle is that allowing changes leads to fraud, as tickets get sold on on the black market. This may well be true - but even London charges per vehicle with Oyster, which as that removes the fraud risk is to me silly.

I have heard it argued that they can't really change because those who use one bus would object to the fare increase that would be required - but the recent swingeing increases in the Oyster zonal caps demonstrates that that really doesn't bother TfL. So why not? Can you imagine having to pay twice if you changed Tube trains?

Conservatism is the only answer I can think of.

Neil
 

Polo Mint

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It would be interesting to see if anyone has a suggestion to improve bus services substantially without it costing tax payers (locally and or nationally) biollions of pounds, or would mass investment be the only option?

The usual argument about paying per vehicle is that allowing changes leads to fraud, as tickets get sold on on the black market. This may well be true - but even London charges per vehicle with Oyster, which as that removes the fraud risk is to me silly.

I have heard it argued that they can't really change because those who use one bus would object to the fare increase that would be required - but the recent swingeing increases in the Oyster zonal caps demonstrates that that really doesn't bother TfL. So why not? Can you imagine having to pay twice if you changed Tube trains?

Conservatism is the only answer I can think of.

Neil

Give it a rest, this is a forum about public transport and not to promote your extreme political ideology.

If you are only interested in your existing passengers then you don't need next stop(s) information. As long as those passengers don't ever want to go somewhere other than where they already go. I suspect it is no surprise that the few operators that are always quoted as being exceptional in the UK all have next stop indicators. If I read the earlier post correctly, it would appear that NCT in Nottingham even have the next few stops. Metrobus have the next few stops on their latest Fastway buses.

I don't have unlimited data. I could if I wanted but it would be a waste of money. I don't even use the whole amount that I pay for. Most people pay for a higher allowance than they need because of the fear of going over it. I also wonder how much data bus passengers actually use, given you shouldn't be using it for streaming. Even when free bus/train WiFi is offered, I don't usually use it because my own data is usually faster. I am also aware of the security issues surrounding public WiFi and it is a bit of pain to use my VPN when browsing, and which makes the internet even slower.

Having said that WiFi is easy and cheap to install so you might as well have it.



We always compare with the pre-86 situation, but I don't think it is that relevant. There is a particular and peculiar British culture of operation that started well before 1986.

For example, charging per vehicle is common to operations in Britain and some former colonies, regardless whether the buses are tendered, deregulated or state owned. When Sheffield has its 5p fare, it was still 5p per vehicle, so changing cost 10p. That may seem a silly thing to worry about, given we are only talking about 10p, which wasn't a lot even in the 80s, but there was still the principle of making people pay more to change, which has probably contributed to the well known, but typically British, aversion to changing. They could have had a higher flat fare but which allowed transfers.

Buses in Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland are state owned and charge per vehicle. Buses in Great Britain charged per vehicle before deregulation. Same goes for Hong Kong, which still follows many of the 'quirks' of British operation, despite passing back to China quite a long time ago now.

For some reason, countries independent from the UK choose to copy British bad habits instead of emulating good practice from mainland Europe. Despite Ireland's bitter struggle against British rule, their buses are run very similarly to how buses were run in Britain before 1986.

British buses both before and after 1986 have persevered with drivers wasting so much time on ticketing. That is totally unnecessary. You don't need low or flat fares. In any case, boarding was tedious before 1986 even in places where fares were almost free. Modern technology helps, but is not necessary. Off bus ticketing for single fares has existed for decades outside the UK.

So, even if British buses were re-regulated with good funding, most things would still be the same and it would be highly unlikely that best practice from the continent would be copied. No matter how many times you talk about the importance of not having to pay to change, or the importance of next stop indicators etc., it falls on deaf ears.

Many people can use Day, Weekly and Monthly passes and they can be used to connect onto other services.

But you are suggesting that people should purchase a ticket on a bus that involved a connection without paying twice? Its a good idea, but any journey that is over a few miles would be more expensive than a Daysaver.

I think that, whether you liked Mrs Thatcher or not, at that time the country really did need some positive action from *someone* to resolve long-running problems.

She just happened to be there at the time - and had the 'balls' to get on with the job. Shame that her predecessors allowed the country to get in to that state.

Exactly, and see what her successors have done. I think bus privatisation was a symptom of militant tendency, and whilst buses being in public hands would be desirable in Cheshire imagine the militancy in the likes of Liverpool if buses were public owned.

When in an area I know well, I am a big fan of the Arriva app - it offers real time tracking on a map, which is that much more useful than just an expected time when it's your local route, as you know pinch-points and the likes that RTPI can't really predict. You can also see when the bus has actually left the terminus rather than just a predicted time based on when it is planned to.

It's funny, really - Arriva are I think typically seen as quite conservative - Stagecoach are the flashy innovators. But in terms of digital stuff they're way ahead of their time - the map covering all their tracked services nationally, as well as a national roll-out of mobile ticketing about 4 years ago and well before everyone was on smartphones.

Neil

I agree, First and Arriva seem to be innovating and the Stagecoach shine seems to be going, even though Stagecoach are still better.

My point entirely. RTPI is much more important for the vast majority of passengers (reliability is usually THE most important factor for passengers). Next stop indicators are not much of an issue for locals and most passengers are local (though I appreciate that in some more touristy areas, then it is perhaps worth doing). Wifi is now fast becoming a human right and yes, not everyone has an unlimited data allowance!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree with your view....to an extent. I dislike most of what Mrs Thatcher did, in terms of the long term affect on social cohesion etc. Some of the impact on the coalfields was nothing short of vindictive.

Similarly, the idea that only losers use public transport was unnecessary, and we're now seeing that in the rail renaissance but then that's more middle class and palatable to the Tory grandees!

However, I really don't go with the idea that it was the land of milk and honey before deregulation. It wasn't. The bus industry was massively supported directly in terms of revenue support from local authorities and ratepayers. The NBC also ran a huge deficit, much of which was written off, and then there was the new bus grant that was another massive cost. In that time, my local firm went from having 300 million passenger journeys in 1954 to having 112 million in 1979 (with no appreciable loss in territory/operations save losing one small depot).

Thatcher did some terrible things, but we were a country that had received a Greek style IMF bailout in 1976/7. Things were broken, though the rather sociopathic "if it's not hurting, it's not working" really showed no empathy for those affected by her government's policies.

In itself it isn't - although there are large swathes of the country for which any suggestion of Thatcher creating prosperity would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic for the people affected.

However the accompanying mood music was basically as suggested, that anyone who used a bus was a loser. Accompanied by a policy of deregulation which turned what was generally a pretty decent service into something excellent on a few routes and appalling or non-existent on many others.

Contrast with places like Germany where most people have the wherewithal to own a car, but there is a comprehensive public transport available and little stigma attached to using it.

Do you have any quotes to support this view are about public transport being for 'losers'?

The Coal Fields were uneconomical, we couldn't afford to subsidise them, while allowing unions to try and overthrow democratically elected governments.


When giving directions by public transport stop names are very useful. Businesses and organisations can tell visitors to get off at xxx bus stop. The timetable can give a list of stops so you can follow the list until you get to the stop you want. If the vehicle is dedicated to that route then you can follow the list of stops on the map. As I pointed out earlier, in many places the names of the next few stops are displayed on a monitor so you have even earlier warning that your stop is coming soon.

The announcement/display can also tell you which buses/trams/metros/railway stations you can change to.

When following advice from journey planners you definitely need stop names.

I shouldn't really have to explain this. I guess it is the British culture at work here again.

Only in Britain would it be deemed pointless to have next stop announcements and displays for buses but essential for trams. In Manchester it would be normal to say "get off at xxx tram stop" but not really normal to say "get off at xxx bus stop". In other countries, buses and trams are of near equal importance and so it would be equally normal to say both.

There are a lot more bus stops than Tram Stops and Tram Stops have simpler named rather than 'something Road, something else Lane' that is seen on TFGM timetables.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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If you are only interested in your existing passengers then you don't need next stop(s) information. As long as those passengers don't ever want to go somewhere other than where they already go. I suspect it is no surprise that the few operators that are always quoted as being exceptional in the UK all have next stop indicators. If I read the earlier post correctly, it would appear that NCT in Nottingham even have the next few stops. Metrobus have the next few stops on their latest Fastway buses.

I don't have unlimited data. I could if I wanted but it would be a waste of money. I don't even use the whole amount that I pay for. Most people pay for a higher allowance than they need because of the fear of going over it. I also wonder how much data bus passengers actually use, given you shouldn't be using it for streaming. Even when free bus/train WiFi is offered, I don't usually use it because my own data is usually faster. I am also aware of the security issues surrounding public WiFi and it is a bit of pain to use my VPN when browsing, and which makes the internet even slower.

Having said that WiFi is easy and cheap to install so you might as well have it.



We always compare with the pre-86 situation, but I don't think it is that relevant. There is a particular and peculiar British culture of operation that started well before 1986.

For example, charging per vehicle is common to operations in Britain and some former colonies, regardless whether the buses are tendered, deregulated or state owned. When Sheffield has its 5p fare, it was still 5p per vehicle, so changing cost 10p. That may seem a silly thing to worry about, given we are only talking about 10p, which wasn't a lot even in the 80s, but there was still the principle of making people pay more to change, which has probably contributed to the well known, but typically British, aversion to changing. They could have had a higher flat fare but which allowed transfers.

Buses in Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland are state owned and charge per vehicle. Buses in Great Britain charged per vehicle before deregulation. Same goes for Hong Kong, which still follows many of the 'quirks' of British operation, despite passing back to China quite a long time ago now.

For some reason, countries independent from the UK choose to copy British bad habits instead of emulating good practice from mainland Europe. Despite Ireland's bitter struggle against British rule, their buses are run very similarly to how buses were run in Britain before 1986.

British buses both before and after 1986 have persevered with drivers wasting so much time on ticketing. That is totally unnecessary. You don't need low or flat fares. In any case, boarding was tedious before 1986 even in places where fares were almost free. Modern technology helps, but is not necessary. Off bus ticketing for single fares has existed for decades outside the UK.

So, even if British buses were re-regulated with good funding, most things would still be the same and it would be highly unlikely that best practice from the continent would be copied. No matter how many times you talk about the importance of not having to pay to change, or the importance of next stop indicators etc., it falls on deaf ears.

Research indicates that it's stuff like wifi that passengers really appreciate - Transdev did the research and it was one of the things that they really liked (but reliability is ALWAYS the highest rating). Next stop indicators don't really permeate in the same way - sorry but that's facts, as voted for by the public.

What I will say is that it will become much more common. First now specify wifi as standard and it's almost universal on Transdev. When it becomes standard, then you can say that next stop announcements will be as well.

To my mind, far more fundamental is the reliability (e.g. RTPI) but also bus priority to enable this. Also, for those people who aren't silver surfers but are probably the largest single group, the standard of roadside publicity is terrible.

I'll not reveal where I was today but I saw two fantastic bits of bus memorabilia but on the open road. One was a bus stop flag whereby the vinyls had perished or been removed to reveal a full NBC flag. The second one was a timetable case that had somehow been missed (stop moved?) but was still there advertising timetables that dated from before GRT bought that local firm!!

The reference to 1986 wasn't in response to you. I take what you say and there are certain things that we could and should adopt or adapt. However, I still maintain that there is this view that things were so much better before deregulation. They weren't but I shouldn't be churlish - the NBC paid for my childhood and still pays a pension to my mother :D
 
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