Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[blackhill]

I hope they know what they are doing with these services, especially with the 2+4 sets. With 2 coaches dedicated to a buffet car and 1st class that only leaves a little over 2 coaches for standard class (TGS + TSO + part of the buffet). Not sure how much 1st class is (or is intended) to be used but a full coach seems a bit of a waste to me. There are quite a few peak services that operate as 170/158, sometimes splitting en route, how do these compare with a 2+5 set I wonder.

Can any of the more knowledgeable forum members give us a comparison on seat numbers between the Mk3's and a standard 170?

Sorry if I keep sounding cynical about this plan but I just can't help getting the feeling it's all going to end in tears.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm also curious to understand how they will cope with peak demand over the longer distances. At the moment many Southbound trains on a Friday are impossible to get a seat on, and even finding standing room can be a struggle on some services. Similarly the 1945 Glasgow - Aberdeen on a Sunday evening is just ridiculous (Previously booked as 2x170 but now only 1). When it was 2 units it was busy but comfortable throughout, now you're lucky to even get a look inside it.

I don't think a full 1st class mk3 coach is overkill if you want encourage people to upgrade to 1st it has to be a good experience, only having half a mk3 1st class coach is a waste of time, also the reason first-scotrail 170s 1st class seats have low occupancy is the service is rubbish and expensive 2+2 seating & poor catering).

 

[SkinnyDave]

I am unable to copy and paste the document but see link below. Suggests HSTs will be maintained at Inverness and Craigentinny.

https://www.abellio.com/sites/default/files/downloads/abellio_scotrail_qa_summary_v2_181214.pdf

Right I'm confused will Scotrail be getting rid of all their 170s and keep most 158s? I would have thought it would be other way round

 

[Class 170101]

Eventually the HSTs will take over services between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Inverness / Aberdeen plus Aberdeen to Inverness.

Electric trains will take over many services in the Central Belt.

Therefore the Class 170s will be returned to the leasing companies. Leaving 156s and 158s to cover what DMU services remain.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Eventually the HSTs will take over services between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Inverness / Aberdeen plus Aberdeen to Inverness.

Electric trains will take over many services in the Central Belt.

Therefore the Class 170s will be returned to the leasing companies. Leaving 156s and 158s to cover what DMU services remain.

So will Dundee to GlasgowQS & Edinburgh to Perth services be mostly 158s then?

 

[overthewater]

Somehow I cant see the Fife circular being mostly operated by 158's.

 

[najaB]

So will Dundee to GlasgowQS & Edinburgh to Perth services be mostly 158s then?

My guess is that Edinburgh to Perth services will continue to be 158's. I would expect the Dundee-Glasgow/Edinburgh stoppers to be 158's as well, though personally I would love it if they were HST's.

 

[me123]

So will Dundee to GlasgowQS & Edinburgh to Perth services be mostly 158s then?

Probably.

Of course, Aberdeen runs will be almost entirely, if not entirely, HSTs. And Edinburgh - Perth will frequently continue to Inverness a lot of the time, so would be HSTs. (In fact, if plans for an hourly Inverness - Perth - Central Belt service go ahead, it could be one in every two trains). And perhaps there'd be enough HSTs that some of them would do the occasional jaunt to Perth or Dundee. But I'd assume 158 operation on the whole. At least until the wires go up to Perth and Dundee, which will likely be the next logical step for electrification after EGIP. I don't know the timescales involved (assuming 2030 at the earliest?). Either way, I'd expect a mixture of HSTs and 158s to be the mainstay up that way for the foreseeable future.

 

[overthewater]

The 170s will not all be going.

 

[SkinnyDave]

I would have thought they would have kept 170s for longish suburban jobs rather than 158s

 

[Altnabreac]

The 170s will not all be going.

On the 170s to Southern thread Chris125 posted this:

Someone presumably well connected posted the following info on RMweb, which suggests there are:

The Class 156 units will be the first to be overhauled and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 32 will be overhauled, 16 will be refreshed and then returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 158 units will be overhauled, all to meet the same specification as the current Inverness based units (14F and 110S) and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 15 will be overhauled, 8 will be returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 170 units will be returned to RoSCo on completion of electrification

Chris

The numbers do add up and in subsequent discussion it looks like these numbers refer to fairly late in the Franchise once lines including Shotts, EK, Barrhead and Maryhill have been electrified as well as EGIP and Dunblane/Alloa.

It would mean both Fife Circle and the Dundee/Perth semi fasts moving to wholly 158 traction by 2020 or so but with these lines likely to be electrified by the mid 2020s that probably won't be the end of the world.

 

[me123]

It would mean both Fife Circle and the Dundee/Perth semi fasts moving to wholly 158 traction by 2020 or so but with these lines likely to be electrified by the mid 2020s that probably won't be the end of the world.

I find it funny that many people dislike the use of 170s on long distance services, seemingly based solely on the door layout at 1/3 & 2/3 (in reality, closer to 1/4 & 3/4). However, threaten to change them to 158s and suddenly there seems to be a bit of panic going on!

Given the rough timescales for electrification to Dundee & Perth, and given that the services will be operated in conjunction with HST runs, I'd argue that the 158s would be perfectly suitable for the job. They should provide comfortable passenger accommodation, for these medium-distance runs.

 

[marks87]

I'll be delighted to see 158s replace 170s on the semi-fasts. I much prefer them.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would agree with this. If, hypathetically you had 2 services to X Destination, 1 worked by a 3 car 170 and the other, say half an hour later by a 4 car 158 I would go for the latter as TBH Its a far better product!↲

 

[northwichcat]

The 170s will not all be going.

Have you got a source for that? Abellio did a presentation when they were awarded the franchise which gave the number of carriages they would take on, the number they would release and what types of traction they would use long-term. For diesel routes only 156s, 158s and HSTs were mentioned and the number of carriages they propose to release corresponds which the number of 170 carriages they have.

If there's more electrification and a franchise extension is awarded then the option to release some 156/8s as well is there.

Of course if passenger numbers rise more than Abellio expect then they might look at retaining some 170s post-December 2018 or taking on some 156/8s from another operator but I doubt they'll have changed their minds so quickly.

 

[sprinterguy]

Have you got a source for that? Abellio did a presentation when they were awarded the franchise which gave the number of carriages they would take on, the number they would release and what types of traction they would use long-term. For diesel routes only 156s, 158s and HSTs were mentioned and the number of carriages they propose to release corresponds which the number of 170 carriages they have.

The Scotrail Q&A posted on the previous page states that not all the 170s are going:

The exact number of DMUs at Haymarket is not yet finalised but whatever happens there will still be a mix of Class 158s and Class 170s.

What it doesn't make clear is whether this applies up until the end of the franchise.

 

[me123]

I'll be delighted to see 158s replace 170s on the semi-fasts. I much prefer them.

I would agree with this. If, hypathetically you had 2 services to X Destination, 1 worked by a 3 car 170 and the other, say half an hour later by a 4 car 158 I would go for the latter as TBH Its a far better product!↲

I'd disagree and I marginally prefer the 170s, although I wouldn't really alter my travel plans based on the train type in this instance.

Nevertheless, I'll be sad to see the 170s heading Darn Sarf. I see no reason to believe that we're going to keep them based on what I've seen, but would be quite happy if there was ultimately going to be a handful still floating around somewhere.

I'd read the document above earlier, and certainly hadn't thought much about Haymarket TMD when considering the new franchise and the new rolling stock up here. It's going to be quite sad to see such a large portion of Haymarket's work going. I wonder if the 156s will be moving to Haymarket at some point in the future?

 

[marks87]

I suppose that depends on where they're still being used. If it's predominantly on the West Coast (i.e. GSW, Stranraer, etc.) then it seems pointless moving them to Haymarket from Corkerhill.

 

[me123]

My thoughts were that
1) It would centralise DMU/Sprinter heavy maintenance to one depot
2) It will help keep jobs and work at Haymarket
3) I think we will see more 156s in the East of the country once things start to get going.
4) With Glasgow becoming increasingly electrified, Corkerhill will evolve by necessity into more of an EMU depot - we'll likely see another order of EMUs once the wires start going up on the EK and Kilmarnock routes.
5) Once the EK, Kilmarnock & Shotts wires go up in the foreseeable future, there will be very few services at Central needing DMUs. In fact, in all of Glasgow, it'll be just Glasgow-Carlisle, Stranraer, and WHL that will be DMU operated.

Although I'll admit that I don't know anywhere near enough about Scotrail's operational structure, or their plans for the future, to make this anything but conjecture from an interested bystander!

 

[hibtastic]

I'd disagree and I marginally prefer the 170s, although I wouldn't really alter my travel plans based on the train type in this instance.

I'm the same. I use the Fife Circle regularly and strongly dislike the 158s. The 170s are by far a more pleasant experience IMHO.

 

[SuffolkRaider]

Whoops sorry guys I obviously read the article wrong and now can't find it to look still 4 sets is enough to lose just because GTL are paying more it would seem Off to specsavers !

 

[Altnabreac]

My thoughts were that
1) It would centralise DMU/Sprinter heavy maintenance to one depot
2) It will help keep jobs and work at Haymarket
3) I think we will see more 156s in the East of the country once things start to get going.
4) With Glasgow becoming increasingly electrified, Corkerhill will evolve by necessity into more of an EMU depot - we'll likely see another order of EMUs once the wires start going up on the EK and Kilmarnock routes.
5) Once the EK, Kilmarnock & Shotts wires go up in the foreseeable future, there will be very few services at Central needing DMUs. In fact, in all of Glasgow, it'll be just Glasgow-Carlisle, Stranraer, and WHL that will be DMU operated.

Although I'll admit that I don't know anywhere near enough about Scotrail's operational structure, or their plans for the future, to make this anything but conjecture from an interested bystander!

I doubt Haymarket will be a centre for 156s.

I believe the timings for Borders, Fife and Dundee all require 158s or 170s.

So once Shotts is electrified in Dec 2019 there will be no regular work for 156s in the East of Scotland.

Their remaining routes will be GSW, Stranraer, Kilmarnock so seems likely Corkerhill would remain the base for them.

You're right that there will be very little DMU work in the west but all the 156 work will be there.

 

[me123]

Fair enough, was just conjecture anyway! Didn't really think that, once Shotts was electrified, there'll be no diesel-only link between the East and West to facilitate movement anyway, so it'd be rather costly to base them 50 miles away from where they're needed!

 

[Altnabreac]

Fair enough, was just conjecture anyway! Didn't really think that, once Shotts was electrified, there'll be no diesel-only link between the East and West to facilitate movement anyway, so it'd be rather costly to base them 50 miles away from where they're needed!

Yep Shotts electrification will make the DMU situation less flexible. So does the use of HSTs North of Perth/Dundee.

You end up with 3 pools of DMUs at Inverness, Edinburgh and Glasgow but no services linking them together that use DMUs so most of the time they will be completely separate pools.

 

[me123]

Yep Shotts electrification will make the DMU situation less flexible. So does the use of HSTs North of Perth/Dundee.

You end up with 3 pools of DMUs at Inverness, Edinburgh and Glasgow but no services linking them together that use DMUs so most of the time they will be completely separate pools.

So we're going to have the Corkerhill based 156s and two pools of 158s at Haymarket and Inverness - in a way, same as now, but with less flexibility. I wonder if there'll be a daily service Inverness-Edinburgh and back again using 158s just to allow the units to get moved around a bit...

I wonder what the long-term plan is for the WHL? The 156s will be coming towards the end of their life by the time they've been replaced on Kilmarnock & EK runs (and, I assume, Kilmarnock-Carlisle will follow in time, offering an electric WCML diversion in addition to the benefits that electrification would bring to the South West). Stranraer's still a bit up-in-the-air, but ultimately I can see the WHL needing a stock of DMUs that will be solely for use on the WHL. Could be a place for ordering a new DMU to serve both the far-North and WHL in the long-term, as I can't imagine that electrifying the routes will be a) easy b) good value for money c) popular with some people (the wires are ruining the view!).

 

[Rhydgaled]

So we're going to have the Corkerhill based 156s and two pools of 158s at Haymarket and Inverness - in a way, same as now, but with less flexibility. I wonder if there'll be a daily service Inverness-Edinburgh and back again using 158s just to allow the units to get moved around a bit...

I wonder what the long-term plan is for the WHL? The 156s will be coming towards the end of their life by the time they've been replaced on Kilmarnock & EK runs (and, I assume, Kilmarnock-Carlisle will follow in time, offering an electric WCML diversion in addition to the benefits that electrification would bring to the South West). Stranraer's still a bit up-in-the-air, but ultimately I can see the WHL needing a stock of DMUs that will be solely for use on the WHL. Could be a place for ordering a new DMU to serve both the far-North and WHL in the long-term, as I can't imagine that electrifying the routes will be a) easy b) good value for money c) popular with some people (the wires are ruining the view!).

I thought the Fort William services were going over to 158s, with 156s staying on Stranraer services, so a third pool of 158s would be needed for Fort William.

 

[Altnabreac]

So we're going to have the Corkerhill based 156s and two pools of 158s at Haymarket and Inverness - in a way, same as now, but with less flexibility. I wonder if there'll be a daily service Inverness-Edinburgh and back again using 158s just to allow the units to get moved around a bit...

I wonder what the long-term plan is for the WHL? The 156s will be coming towards the end of their life by the time they've been replaced on Kilmarnock & EK runs (and, I assume, Kilmarnock-Carlisle will follow in time, offering an electric WCML diversion in addition to the benefits that electrification would bring to the South West). Stranraer's still a bit up-in-the-air, but ultimately I can see the WHL needing a stock of DMUs that will be solely for use on the WHL. Could be a place for ordering a new DMU to serve both the far-North and WHL in the long-term, as I can't imagine that electrifying the routes will be a) easy b) good value for money c) popular with some people (the wires are ruining the view!).

There'll actually need to be 3 pools of 158s as WHL is going to be operated by 158s under Abellio. I wonder if the WHL 158s may actually be based at Haymarket?

Certainly won't be any new stock in next 10 years but you could see the logic after that of a scenic DMU order for WHL/Far North/Stranraer and similar English/Welsh rural lines that aren't likely ever to be electrified.

 

[swt_passenger]

Whoops sorry guys I obviously read the article wrong and now can't find it to look still 4 sets is enough to lose just because GTL are paying more it would seem Off to specsavers !

The Scotsman article (as I read it yesterday) definitely referred to '9 more' DMUs heading to Southern, and anyone reading it would have assumed they meant an additional quantity on top of what was already planned.

In other words either poor journalism or intended exaggeration.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

The Scotsman article (as I read it yesterday) definitely referred to '9 more' DMUs heading to Southern, and anyone reading it would have assumed they meant an additional quantity on top of what was already planned.



In other words either poor journalism or intended exaggeration.

Both are correct. He was on Twitter right after trying to get people to post if they thought their train was overcrowded. Cue every train being reported as overcrowded.

 

[Stats]

Whoops sorry guys I obviously read the article wrong and now can't find it to look still 4 sets is enough to lose just because GTL are paying more it would seem Off to specsavers !

Here you go.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/more-commuters-fewer-seats-for-squeezed-scotrail-1-3690657

COMMUTERS face being crammed into fewer carriages because ScotRail is set to lose a number of trains.



Four trains will be moved to England in April, at a time of rapid passenger growth and new lines being opened. The ScotRail fleet is likely to be further stretched from September by having to cover the new Borders Railway.

The single replacement train will comprise old-style coaches hauled by a locomotive. This is also expected to be significantly more expensive to operate than the rest of the diesel fleet, whose engines are under the carriages.

Dutch firm Abellio, which takes over ScotRail in April, said the routes affected would be Edinburgh to Dunblane, Glenrothes, Perth and Dundee, and Glasgow to Stirling and Alloa. Some trains on these lines will have fewer coaches, known as “short forming”.

[snip]

A spokeswoman said it had worked with Abellio and Govia to sub-lease back to ScotRail five of the original nine trains that were due to go. She said: “These plans, along with the hiring of an additional locomotive-hauled train and better utilisation of diesel stock freed up by recent electrification schemes, ensure Abellio ScotRail will have the necessary rolling stock for the franchise launch on 1 April.”

 

[Bodiddly]

Here you go.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/more-commuters-fewer-seats-for-squeezed-scotrail-1-3690657

It looks like Abellio will be running dangerously close to the wind. Availability will inevitably suffer as the fleet get's older. Two Inverness departures bustituted today due to failed trains.