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London Midland/Northern EMU changes speculation

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Bletchleyite

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My bold

As has been said on here many times, they can't! Far more likely is for the TPE 350s to go to LM when TPE gets a new fleet, thus freeing up 319s and possibly the odd 323...

I believe that is the plan, to the extent that there is one (and is one reason they were 350s). TPE is meant to get a uniform electric fleet on electrification.

I'd imagine an extra 10 would be 7 to replace the 319s and 3 for growth (i.e. 3 more peak time 12 car services, or 3 diagrams worth of the Trent Valley services to 8).

Neil
 
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Class377/5

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Siemens were reluctant to deliver 350/3s and 350/4s and apparently they told LM if they wanted any more 350s add them to that order as next time 350s won't be an option.

You keeping repeating this but its not true. The 350 do not comply with the new standards hence cannot be offered. The LM/TPE was always going to be the last build offered. Siemens is offering Desiro Cities now as standard.
 

northwichcat

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You keeping repeating this but its not true. The 350 do not comply with the new standards hence cannot be offered. The LM/TPE was always going to be the last build offered. Siemens is offering Desiro Cities now as standard.

So you're saying it's not true that Siemens told LM it was their last chance to get 350s but it is true that it was their last chance to get 350s. :roll:
 

Class377/5

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I guess he's saying Siemens weren't reluctant to make these ones, but they have said there won't be any more.

Neil

That's what I'm saying. Seems some want to invent things.

Remember Siemens/LM reminded DfT when the cheaper offer of Desiro's from the option's of the 350/2 order was about to run out. They are happy to make units, unlike other manufacturers.
 

northwichcat

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Remember Siemens/LM reminded DfT when the cheaper offer of Desiro's from the option's of the 350/2 order was about to run out. They are happy to make units, unlike other manufacturers.

This is what was put on the LM website in September 2011

London Midland said:
London Midland is pleased to announce today that it has selected preferred bidders for the manufacture, maintenance and financing of new rolling stock. This is intended for both London Midland and the Manchester to Scotland services operated by First TransPennine Express, which would result in significant additional capacity, making travel easier, more reliable and less crowded on some of the busiest sections of the rail network.

The preferred bidders are Siemens Plc for manufacture and maintenance of the new rolling stock, which are expected to be Desiro EMUs, and Angel Trains Limited for the necessary financing. We are now entering a period of exclusive negotiations with those companies. If those negotiations are brought to a successful conclusion, and parallel discussions with the Department for Transport confirm the business case and the necessary amendments to the London Midland franchise agreement, then a firm order is likely to be placed by early 2012.

This announcement follows an EU-wide competitive procurement process for new electric rolling stock conducted by London Midland. The competition commenced with the publication of a contract notice in the OJEU in April 2009, which identified a requirement for between 40 and 120 vehicles, and attracted responses from a number of interested financiers and suppliers from both UK and wider European markets.

Since the start of 2011 a great deal of effort has been undertaken by London Midland with bidders to accommodate changes to the original requirements and to reach the point of being able to select the preferred bidders.

Although current expectations are that the new order will be for approximately 72 Class 350 vehicles, probably in 18 x 4 car formation, the final number of vehicles could be more or less, partly depending on the outcome of negotiations with the Department for Transport. It is now possible that these vehicles may have 110mph capability. The vehicles will be used for two purposes:

• as envisaged at the outset, London Midland has a need for new electric rolling stock. It is expected that approximately 32 of the new vehicles (probably in 8 x 4-car unit formation) will be for use in expanding London Midland's existing fleet of electric multiple units to provide additional capacity on London Midland's services.
• in addition to the above, as a result of a request later in 2009 by the Department for Transport to include within the procurement requirements new electric rolling stock for use on the Manchester to Scotland route, approximately 40 of the new vehicles (probably in 10 x 4-car unit formation) are to be procured and subsequently transferred by London Midland to First TransPennine Express (FTPE). The transfer is intended to occur in early 2012 via a novation to FTPE of the relevant contracts between London Midland, Siemens and Angel Trains. FTPE and the successors to the TransPennine franchise will run these vehicles on routes between Manchester and Scotland following the electrification of routes in the North West of England in line with national rail strategy.

Negotiations with the preferred supplier in respect of the units destined for the Manchester to Scotland service are likely to include certain interior design changes which reflect the longer distance journey patterns on this route.

Subject to the negotiations with the preferred bidders being brought to a successful conclusion and to the outcome of negotiations with the Department for Transport, contracts with Siemens and Angel Trains are currently expected to be finalised and signed at the end of 2011/early 2012. The original target for introduction of all the new vehicles into service was May 2011. At present, delivery of the first unit is expected in the autumn of 2013 and it is anticipated that that FTPE will receive its vehicles ahead of London Midland.

The maintenance arrangements being negotiated with the preferred supplier and financier for the new vehicles to be deployed by FTPE on the Manchester to Scotland route are likely to include development of existing depot facilities in the Manchester area and the making of arrangements to provide out-station servicing and stabling at other locations on the route.
London Midland looks forward to working with the preferred bidders and the Department for Transport in bringing the procurement negotiations to a close and, thereafter, to timely commencement of manufacture and introduction of the additional carriages.

It was reported in certain rail magazines in mid 2011 that following that award Siemens said circumstances had changed since the OJEU in April 2009 - Siemens were awarded Thameslink in June 2011 and weren't really still interested in a small 350 order but would set up a small production line for 350s if DfT put their arses in to gear and actually placed the order (not using those exact words.)
 
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Wolfie

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I guess he's saying Siemens weren't reluctant to make these ones, but they have said there won't be any more.

Neil

I'm sure that Siemens may have preferred not to given that they had won the Thameslink order. However, given that LM has an extant contract, including an options clause which was exercised, they didn't have a whole lot of choice (well unless they were prepared to face litigation and potentially face being locked out of the UK rolling stock market)...
 

WatcherZero

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Bit of hyperbolae from LM, they did tender but the 350's were a contract option on the earlier 350/2 order for up to 20x4. They were originally to order 18 before they upped the total to 20. They couldn't order more than 20 350's as that was the total number of contract options.
 

northwichcat

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Bit of hyperbolae from LM, they did tender but the 350's were a contract option on the earlier 350/2 order for up to 20x4. They were originally to order 18 before they upped the total to 20. They couldn't order more than 20 350's as that was the total number of contract options.

I seem to recall that ITT was originally issued because the previous government told Northern they could have a new EMU order and LM that they could have 17 x 323s released from Northern. DfT dropped that idea but LM believed they had a cast iron guarantee for extra EMUs for cross city services plus options for extra carriages on WCML services so issued an ITT for new EMUs.
 

MK Tom

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It was never Milton Keynes to Brighton. Its been Brighton to Watford and Croydon to Milton Keynes.

The path from the Brighton section got used on a 3rd Brighton to Victoria service as a direct replacement so the WCML service was chopped to end at Croydon at the same timetable change.

And before Brighton to Watford it was Brighton to Rugby in Connex days. Used that wonderful service many times and seeing 319s at MKC will be like a throwback to it.
 

Yew

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They were sold to one of the leasing company a few years ago because 'government' decided that owning rolling stock was 'outside the normal sphere of responsibility'of a Local Authority or some such cowmanure! getting in the way of putting as much taxpayers money as possible into the pockets of their rich mates

Fixed it!
 

physics34

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While the GN 321s are rough they are still, scarily, better than the LM ones...that deal means Scotrail get the roughest 321s (original NSE seat covers and all) out there to refurbish...

Given the effort that Govia has put into the deal I assume that it has nailed down extended leases for the GN 321s now...

so the LM 319s will be in the St Albans Abbey line and peaktime Euston to Tring/Birmingham etc ??
 

MK Tom

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I believe the 319s, which presumably will be given the same refresh (and as such will offer a better passenger experience than the tired 321s) as those still on Thameslink and those going to Northern, are intended as a direct replacement for the 321s. I also believe that 321s currently only go as far as Northampton from Euston in the peak so I guess the 319s will do the same. Since 321s currently run the Abbey branch I imagine 319s will appear on that service also.

A question: Do the current LM 321s retain 1st class and will the 319s transferred offer it?

They do yes, first class is offered on all WCML south services so the 319s will have to provide it.
 

physics34

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I believe the 319s, which presumably will be given the same refresh (and as such will offer a better passenger experience than the tired 321s) as those still on Thameslink and those going to Northern, are intended as a direct replacement for the 321s. I also believe that 321s currently only go as far as Northampton from Euston in the peak so I guess the 319s will do the same. Since 321s currently run the Abbey branch I imagine 319s will appear on that service also.

A question: Do the current LM 321s retain 1st class and will the 319s transferred offer it?

okay, makes sense. thanks for that.
 

Bletchleyite

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They do yes, first class is offered on all WCML south services so the 319s will have to provide it.

Have to? Depends which 319s they are, but as they're a stopgap if they aren't carrying it as supplied I wouldn't be surprised if those specific trains weren't just shown without a [1] in the timetable. They aren't used randomly, they're used on specific diagrams (as LM is so inter-worked with joining and splitting, it wouldn't work otherwise).

That, or a Southern-style cop-out of shoving antimacassars on some seats and claiming they're First Class when they are the same as Standard. I really dislike that and wish they would regulate to prevent it, e.g. by a requirement that First Class seats must be wider and/or have a wider seat pitch than Standard compared to other seats on that train.

Neil
 

physics34

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Have to? Depends which 319s they are, but as they're a stopgap if they aren't carrying it as supplied I wouldn't be surprised if those specific trains weren't just shown without a [1] in the timetable. They aren't used randomly, they're used on specific diagrams (as LM is so inter-worked with joining and splitting, it wouldn't work otherwise).

That, or a Southern-style cop-out of shoving antimacassars on some seats and claiming they're First Class when they are the same as Standard. I really dislike that and wish they would regulate to prevent it, e.g. by a requirement that First Class seats must be wider and/or have a wider seat pitch than Standard compared to other seats on that train.

Neil

im sure the DfT could have the power to implement this, but for some reason they dont.
 

Hophead

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A further question - do these 321s run in 12-car formations at all? 319s have never run in service at longer than 8-car. Would it be feasible to run 3 units coupled together if necessary?
 

Fincra5

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A further question - do these 321s run in 12-car formations at all? 319s have never run in service at longer than 8-car. Would it be feasible to run 3 units coupled together if necessary?

319's did under Connex. Peak services from VIC were often 12 car 319s. Have to be operated by a guard of course. TL doesn't have 12 car 319s as the DOO equipment doesn't allow 12 Car, nor do T&Cs for 319s as DOO.
 

Hophead

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319's did under Connex. Peak services from VIC were often 12 car 319s. Have to be operated by a guard of course. TL doesn't have 12 car 319s as the DOO equipment doesn't allow 12 Car, nor do T&Cs for 319s as DOO.

Thanks for that - your knowledge trumps my ill-founded recollections
 

DarloRich

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My bold

As has been said on here many times, they can't! Far more likely is for the TPE 350s to go to LM when TPE gets a new fleet, thus freeing up 319s and possibly the odd 323...

they can in theory , but there has to be a proper commutative tender. The 350/3/4 were ordered via the exercising of a contractual option. That avoided the need for a tender. That option isn’t open anymore, assuming Siemens even want to sell 350's.
 

northwichcat

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they can in theory , but there has to be a proper commutative tender. The 350/3/4 were ordered via the exercising of a contractual option. That avoided the need for a tender. That option isn’t open anymore, assuming Siemens even want to sell 350's.

Siemens might not even be that interested in a new ITT. They didn't offer anything in response to the most recent Scotrail one (which Hitachi won), they did in response to the SWT one but then SWT have indirectly been their biggest UK customer over the past 15 years.
 
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WatcherZero

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They dont, they had to be arm wrestled into the hybrid design 380's as Scotrail wanted a proven design wheras Siemens wanted to move on to their next model. compromise was a 350 below the floor and the new model above it.
 

SpacePhoenix

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A new build of 350s isn't an option anyway anymore as they don't meet the current crash regs, the bodies of the class 380s, 700s and 707s do meet the current crash regs
 

Wolfie

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they can in theory , but there has to be a proper commutative tender. The 350/3/4 were ordered via the exercising of a contractual option. That avoided the need for a tender. That option isn’t open anymore, assuming Siemens even want to sell 350's.

Not if 350s don't meet current standards, as has been repeatedly said, they can't...
 

physics34

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A new build of 350s isn't an option anyway anymore as they don't meet the current crash regs, the bodies of the class 380s, 700s and 707s do meet the current crash regs

so does that mean there are tons of coaches going about that are not properly crashworthy?
 

Peter Sarf

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so does that mean there are tons of coaches going about that are not properly crashworthy?

They wont meet the latest regs for new build. But these, already built trains, will be OK in relation to the regs as they passed the regs in force then. It was different when a deadline was set for the slam door stock to go.
 

AM9

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so does that mean there are tons of coaches going about that are not properly crashworthy?

No, all rolling stock will have met the regulations in force at the time of their respective introduction. New (or heavily rebuilt) stock will need to meet the latest regulations. If you have a car, are you prevented from driving it when the construction rules are updated?
Sometimes, regulators or national governmenmts decide that equipment complying with very old rules must be replaced, e.g. the MKIs had good chassis but poor body strength. They also had asbestos in them before a certain date. That's why they are not cleared for normal mainline passenger service these days.
 

DarloRich

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A new build of 350s isn't an option anyway anymore as they don't meet the current crash regs, the bodies of the class 380s, 700s and 707s do meet the current crash regs

Not if 350s don't meet current standards, as has been repeatedly said, they can't...

Apologies - i thought, perhaps wrongly, that the 350 met the regualtions for running upto 100 mph but not beyond that speed.
 

Wolfie

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Apologies - i thought, perhaps wrongly, that the 350 met the regualtions for running upto 100 mph but not beyond that speed.

Sorry, I thought that I'd sent a "no worries" message before but obviously not...
 
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