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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail
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telstarbox
Established Member
That's too obvious, let's say "A. Shooter."
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Formerly of a TOC which could provide a very good testbed for them...
Neil
A nice order of D-trains for Princes Risborough to Aylesbury and London to Aylesbury allowing a cascade of more modern trains to the South West, Midlands and North?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A nice order of D-trains for Princes Risborough to Aylesbury and London to Aylesbury allowing a cascade of more modern trains to the South West, Midlands and North?
You wish
More likely it could replace the bubble car on Princes Risborough to Aylesbury, and if Chiltern are likely to operate East West Rail then they could also perhaps take over Bedford-Bletchley using the units as a precursor.
Neil
northwichcat
Veteran Member
You wish
In mid-2020 the other TOCs are all going to gang up and sign leases for Chiltern's trains post-Dec 2021 and leave the bidders for the next Chiltern franchise with Pacers and D-trains.
In mid-2020 the other TOCs are all going to gang up and sign leases for Chiltern's trains post-Dec 2021 and leave the bidders for the next Chiltern franchise with Pacers and D-trains.
... and when the Chiltern mainline is electrified all of the DMUs mentioned above will be immediately cascaded to the Northern successor franchise...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
... and when the Chiltern mainline is electrified all of the DMUs mentioned above will be immediately cascaded to the Northern successor franchise...
...in exchange for all Northern's EMUs...
Neil
In mid-2020 the other TOCs are all going to gang up and sign leases for Chiltern's trains post-Dec 2021 and leave the bidders for the next Chiltern franchise with Pacers and D-trains.
The new, improved version...
Given the number of TOCs DB/Arriva run that is unlikely but, assuming you are correct, this is followed by either...
... the DB/Arriva successful bid for the Northern successor franchise decides to do an intra-DB rolling stock swap (a la GoVia over 319s/321s) and move the best DMUs to the more profitable franchise... or
... there is an immediate decision to made to electrify the Chiltern mainline as a matter of priority with EMUs, particularly the 323s and 333s, sourced from the former Northern .. either of which lead to
.. all of the DMUs mentioned above being immediately cascaded to the Northern successor franchise...
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
... and when the Chiltern mainline is electrified all of the DMUs mentioned above will be immediately cascaded to the Northern successor franchise...
Oh yes, yes, yes pleeeeeze. More electrification
.Prospective build of EMUs anyone ? - (serious idea really).
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Making reference in part to the sentiments inherent in the immortal words made famous by Kevin Keegan when he was in charge of Newcastle United FC....
"I would just love it, if after all this hype, the approval tests for the prototype D78 conversion were found not to be in favour of proceeding with this project"
"I would just love it, if after all this hype, the approval tests for the prototype D78 conversion were found not to be in favour of proceeding with this project"
Chris125
Established Member
Can't see that happening, with EWR on the way they'd only see a few years use on either line so they might as well stick with what they have.
Chris
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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Never know, if this works we might see DMU conversions of everything.
Lets watch them try to DMU-ize a HST trailer.
Lets watch them try to DMU-ize a HST trailer.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Perhaps we are fortunate that Vivarail, whilst looking at elderly units that had seen long service and were ready for scrapping, did not make a bid for the now-redundant entire T68 fleet of the first-generation tram units of the Manchester Metrolink system in order to refurbish these...
Perhaps we are fortunate that Vivarail, whilst looking at elderly units that had seen long service and were ready for scrapping, did not make a bid for the now-redundant entire T68 fleet of the first-generation tram units of the Manchester Metrolink system in order to refurbish these...
Possibly; would they fit through the TW Metro Tunnels and be amenable to 1500V DC conversion?
Mikey C
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Perhaps we are fortunate that Vivarail, whilst looking at elderly units that had seen long service and were ready for scrapping, did not make a bid for the now-redundant entire T68 fleet of the first-generation tram units of the Manchester Metrolink system in order to refurbish these...
But then the point of these units is that they aren't ready for scrapping, it's the desire for a unified sub-surface fleet on the Underground and the mistake made with the single leaf door design which means they are being withdrawn 10 years early.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And the trams were, unlike these vehicles, widely known as being badly-built rubbish.
Neil
GrimsbyPacer
Established Member
Aren't the old Midland Metro trams due for replacement?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
An order of 20 new trams started to be delivered last September which is to replace the original 16 trams and provide 4 additional trams.
The Midland Metro already have new trams entering service so the original ones are soon to be redundant - some already are.
However these are also badly built Ansaldo Breda rubbish.
I remember visiting the depot over 10 years ago on a tour and the depot manager already had that opinion of them!
However these are also badly built Ansaldo Breda rubbish.
I remember visiting the depot over 10 years ago on a tour and the depot manager already had that opinion of them!
GrimsbyPacer
Established Member
Maybe so, but a diesel engine behind the cab. New aluminium wheels aswell as other stuff the D-Trains will get and a "new" train for Devon or West Yorkshire.
DMU shortage may bite in the future thanks to Network Rail delays.
And why not use Tube/T&W metro/Metrolink stock next time they become available?
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Do you realise those trams aren't cleared for any National Rail running unlike D-Stock and a single tram is similar in capacity to a single 153 but the tram has wide double doors?
GrimsbyPacer
Established Member
These trams could be put on branch lines like class 139.
And they could get an exception, maybe??
I'm saying put them on Windermere, Wherry, Falmouth, Looe, Llandudo and Ormskirk lines. And at some locations they could extend down onto a tramway, Robin Hood from NET, Kirkham from Blackpool and Fleetwood tramway. Retford from Sheffield.
Surely it wouldn't be too different from the TramTrains being proposed??
northwichcat
Veteran Member
There's two different type of trams in operation in the UK - high floor trams and low floor trams. Most (including Midland Metro trams) are low floor trams would require platforms to be rebuilt to be used at National Rail stations.
3141
Established Member
"Meanwhile - a slightly tactless senior person, who for anonymity we'll call Adrian S. involved in the D78/278 proposal took a phone call from what I guess was a journo from a Sunday paper during Friday's Modern Railways event.. indiscretely he answered all the questions loudly and about 3 metres from me... so as it's also public domain (and he was briefing a journo anyway) I can report that "All three bidders for the Northern Franchise are in discussions about using the 278s on 'rural routes in the most northern parts of the franchise area' and other enquiries are coming in from across the UK."
I'm not at all surprised that the bidders for the Northern franchise are interested. If they need to replace Pacers, and they also need extra trains, then something relatively inexpensive is definitely worth looking at.
But quite soon they will have to decide whether to include them in their bids. That's much more difficult. Will there be a prototype at that time, and how much testing will it have had? If they win the franchise with a bid that depends on these trains, but in the end the conversions cost more than expected, or there are reliability problems, their franchise operation could be in difficulties.
On the other hand, if the project looks promising, and it's known that all the bidders are interested in these trains, then each bidder may feel they've got to include them, because the other bidders probably will, and no-one will want to risk losing because they chose a more expensive approach.
It's not surprising either that "other enquiries are coming in". But there's a long way to go between enquiries and a TOC deciding that this project really does offer something they need at a suitable price.
Having said all that, I will be pleased if the project is successful. There's still several years of life in the D stock and since many of the routes such trains would be used on require a subsidy from our taxes, I think it's absolutely essential to look at ways of acquiring stock more cheaply than brand new diesels at £2 million per coach.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If I were to dare to make a comparative comment to this to my good lady wife, the next time she decides to upgrade from her existing Range Rover, I can well imagine the reception that I would receive...
Perhaps we are fortunate that Vivarail, whilst looking at elderly units that had seen long service and were ready for scrapping, did not make a bid for the now-redundant entire T68 fleet of the first-generation tram units of the Manchester Metrolink system in order to refurbish these...
The D-type have already operated on National Rail, had work done on them by LU and are generally decent, reliable units. The T68s, like the related T69s which are being got rid of in the West Midlands for identical reasons, are unreliable Ansaldo junk....
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If I were to dare to make a comparative comment to this to my good lady wife, the next time she decides to upgrade from her existing Range Rover, I can well imagine the reception that I would receive...
But the taxpayer isn't paying for your new Range Rover.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Neither would the taxpayer see any advantage from the new Range Rover.
Rusty steel bodied junk too!
On a related note many country dwellers and enthusiasts keep old Land Rovers going seemingly for ever, and that is at least partially possible because of their corrosion resistant aluminium body panels.
So, built solidly in the West Midlands, aluminium construction, one careful owner, full service history with many recent parts. D78s are the Land Rovers of the used train market!
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