How to upgrade an Advance Ticket?

[jerseyhouse]

I have an advance ticket to travel from Doncaster to Kings Cross at 07:12 on the 11th Feb. It cost my company £89 (not cheap) after it was booked I was asked if I could meet somebody in London earlier 09.00 instead of 10.00. So I decided I would get the earlier train 06.23. I asked my company how I could upgrade the ticket and they advised that I should go to a local ticket office and it would cost £10.00 admin fee to upgrade it. So tonight I decided to do that.

Before I just set off to my nearest station Doncaster, I thought I would call National Rail Enquiries just to double check (it cost me for the privilege). I asked if I could upgrade they answered YES. I asked where was the nearest station that was open, they advised Doncaster was closed but Leeds was still open and in fact was open 24 hours. I asked them if Leeds could upgrade my ticket and even asked them for the train times. They said YES all possible. I asked them for the number of the ticket office, they said it didn't have one, I found that hard to believe but it doesn't. They advised it was run by NorthernRail, so I asked for their number. Northern Rail customer Services was closed. I asked again if I would be able to upgrade the ticket at Leeds before driving there, they said definitely. (You can see where this is going...)

So I drive to Leeds, Parked up (paid NorthernRail for the privilege) went to the ticket office only to be told NO you can't upgrade your advance ticket. I told the lady at the office what I had been advised and she said I could upgrade the advance ticket if I was travelling today ("WHAT DIFFERENCE SHOULD THAT MAKE" I said calmly to myself). Or if I had come before 6pm then their travel centre would be open and they could do it. I asked if I could simply buy the £105 ticket to London she said yes but I could not get a refund on the advance ticket.

So if I get on the earlier train to London I will surely have no sympathy from the guard and they won't upgrade my ticket. Instead they will rub their hands go Kerching and somebody loses £89.00.

Could I go on a website and upgrade then print a ticket or even pick one up from a fast ticket machine. (Don't be daft - that makes it too easy for customers that we want to continue to rip off).

So, do I go to Doncaster station very early on the 11th and hope the ticket office will upgrade me because I am travelling the same day. I suspect something will catch me out and it will be NO you have to pay AGAIN because we're big companies with the law on our side. (Yes, I am becoming Cynical)

Any advice welcome!

 

[magd1272]

Do you mean 'upgrade' or do you simply want to change the time?

My PA has changed my advance tickets before when meetings have been rescheduled. From memory you just need to log in to East Coast, go to My Bookings and amend the ticket there. It's a £10 admin fee plus any difference in fare. So if the train you now want to travel on is £109 it'll be £10 admin fee + £20 fare difference. Once you've paid you just print out a travel document from the website and use it in combination with your original ticket.

 

[ASharpe]

Leeds ticket office is 24 hours for walk up tickets but not for tickets requiring reservations. (You might have issues if you try before the travel centre opens in a morning.)

TICKETS REQUIRING
RESERVATIONS ONLY AVAILABLE MON - FRI 0800 - 2000,
SAT 0800 - 2000, SUN 0900 – 2000

But if you are upgrading to a walk up ticket I don't think that should matter.

And if you are travelling early - i.e. not late. Then I believe you can change your ticket even on board.

 

[jerseyhouse]

Do you mean 'upgrade' or do you simply want to change the time?

My PA has changed my advance tickets before when meetings have been rescheduled. From memory you just need to log in to East Coast, go to My Bookings and amend the ticket there. It's a £10 admin fee plus any difference in fare. So if the train you now want to travel on is £109 it'll be £10 admin fee + £20 fare difference. Once you've paid you just print out a travel document from the website and use it in combination with your original ticket.

That sounds fantastic and just what I need - will give it a try - thank you.

 

[yorkie]

So I drive to Leeds, Parked up (paid NorthernRail for the privilege) went to the ticket office only to be told NO you can't upgrade your advance ticket. I told the lady at the office what I had been advised and she said I could upgrade the advance ticket if I was travelling today ("WHAT DIFFERENCE SHOULD THAT MAKE" I said calmly to myself). Or if I had come before 6pm then their travel centre would be open and they could do it. I asked if I could simply buy the £105 ticket to London she said yes but I could not get a refund on the advance ticket.

Leeds? After 6pm? You'd be lucky, as the dreaded Northern Rail run the main ticket office, so good luck getting someone who is adequately trained (not the staff's fault; it's the fault of awful management)

The excess is £105-£89 plus a £10 admin fee, ie £26.

So if I get on the earlier train to London I will surely have no sympathy from the guard and they won't upgrade my ticket. Instead they will rub their hands go Kerching and somebody loses £89.00.

It is possible the Guard may show discretion and charge an excess, or even let you off. However you have to assume the worst, so I advise you excess the ticket before departure.

Could I go on a website and upgrade then print a ticket or even pick one up from a fast ticket machine. (Don't be daft - that makes it too easy for customers that we want to continue to rip off).

Most websites do not offer that facility, but the East Coast website does... providing you booked on East Coast? Go to your "My Bookings" page, 'view' the relevant booking and then choose 'Amend Journey'

I fear Virgin Trains may downgrade their website to be in-line with the West Coast site, and cease operating this function in future, but I hope I am wrong on that!

So, do I go to Doncaster station very early on the 11th and hope the ticket office will upgrade me because I am travelling the same day. I suspect something will catch me out and it will be NO you have to pay AGAIN because we're big companies with the law on our side. (Yes, I am becoming Cynical)

Good news! Doncaster [DON] ticket office is run by East Coast, and the staff there are generally excellent. They are, unlike Northern, generally very well trained indeed, and also friendly and helpful.

You could try writing to Northern Rail about the incorrect information at Leeds, and the fact you were offered a new ticket at £105 instead of an excess fare of £26, and if you get fobbed off (which I predict you will), report the matter to Passenger Focus.

You could try writing to their MD, but based on previous experiences, his permanent grin will not change and neither will the quality of service at Leeds ticket office, so I'm not sure it's worth the bother.

 

[jerseyhouse]

Leeds ticket office is 24 hours for walk up tickets but not for tickets requiring reservations. (You might have issues if you try before the travel centre opens in a morning.)



But if you are upgrading to a walk up ticket I don't think that should matter.

And if you are travelling early - i.e. not late. Then I believe you can change your ticket even on board.

Too many if's and but's - I was advised I could do it and couldn't

 

[yorkie]

Leeds ticket office is 24 hours for walk up tickets but not for tickets requiring reservations. (You might have issues if you try before the travel centre opens in a morning.).

There is no reservation required in this case (as the excess is to the Anytime Single (SOS)) and we are told the clerk did offer to sell a new ticket at £105.

 

[IanD]

Go to Doncaster station tomorrow when they're open and change the ticket.

Ideally, don't buy advance tickets if you're not sure of your plans particularly if they're "not cheap" - you may as well have bought the anytime single for £105 for the sake of £16.

Alternatively, tell the person you can't meet them until 10:00.

 

[jerseyhouse]

It is possible the Guard may show discretion and charge an excess, or even let you off. However you have to assume the worst, so I advise you excess the ticket before departure..

Based on my previous experience I will avoid the discretion chance.

Most websites do not offer that facility, but the East Coast website does... providing you booked on East Coast? Go to your "My Bookings" page and amend it from there.

My tickets were booked by Co-op travel so I suspect I can't use the website

Good news! Doncaster [DON] ticket office is run by East Coast, and the staff there are generally excellent. They are, unlike Northern, generally very well trained indeed, and also friendly and helpful..

Are they open at 05.45?

You could try writing to Northern Rail about the incorrect information at Leeds, and the fact you were offered a new ticket at £105 instead of an excess fare of £26, and if you get fobbed off (which I predict you will), report the matter to Passenger Focus.

You could try writing to their MD, but based on previous experiences, his permanent grin will not change and neither will the quality of service at Leeds ticket office, so I'm not sure it's worth the bother.

Are you saying that the ticket office in Leeds should have given me the option to upgrade?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Go to Doncaster station tomorrow when they're open and change the ticket.

Ideally, don't buy advance tickets if you're not sure of your plans particularly if they're "not cheap" - you may as well have bought the anytime single for £105 for the sake of £16.

Alternatively, tell the person you can't meet them until 10:00.

Can't get to Doncaster tomorrow unfortunately

I agree on the advance tickets but I never bought it!

That last one isn't option!

 

[yorkie]

My tickets were booked by Co-op travel so I suspect I can't use the website

Correct.

I'm all for saving money but even I wouldn't pay £89 for an Advance fare, when the Anytime is only a small percentage extra.

Are they open at 05.45?

They should be open from 0515 (the opening times are on this link: DON)

If the ticket office is not open at the time of departure, then you will be treated as having "no opportunity to pay before boarding" and the Guard will treat you the same as a ticket office would.

Are you saying that the ticket office in Leeds should have given me the option to upgrade?

I believe so.

They were not using the argument that they were not selling tickets for tomorrow, as they were offering to sell you the £105 ticket.

Even if they were using such an argument, I'd disagree that they should be, because, unlike many other ticket offices, there is no exemption in place at Leeds for tickets for tomorrow; the exemption only covers tickets requiring reservations, which you did not require, nor did they claim that you did.

It was a simple matter of incorrect information, which is due to abysmally poor training, which is consistent with the poor experience of myself and numerous other forum members at Northern Rail stations, due to a failure by Alex Hynes and his team to manage properly.

I don't blame the person who mis-advised you; they're not given adequate training and they probably never will be as no-one can make the grinning one and his team train their staff properly.

 

[jerseyhouse]

Correct.

I'm all for saving money but even I wouldn't pay £89 for an Advance fare, when the Anytime is only a small percentage extra.


They should be open from 0515 (the opening times are on this link: DON)

If the ticket office is not open at the time of departure, then you will be treated as having "no opportunity to pay before boarding" and the Guard will treat you the same as a ticket office would.


I believe so.

They were not using the argument that they were not selling tickets for tomorrow, as they were offering to sell you the £105 ticket.

Even if they were using such an argument, I'd disagree that they should be, because, unlike many other ticket offices, there is no exemption in place at Leeds for tickets for tomorrow; the exemption only covers tickets requiring reservations, which you did not require, nor did they claim that you did.

It was a simple matter of incorrect information, which is due to abysmally poor training, which is consistent with the poor experience of myself and numerous other forum members at Northern Rail stations, due to a failure by Alex Hynes and his team to manage properly.

I don't blame the person who mis-advised you; they're not given adequate training and they probably never will be as no-one can make the grinning one and his team train their staff properly.

Thank You - I know the law is on their side but I am now out of pocket and time for this. Surely there is a regulator that can force NorthernRail to provide me with recompense? Is it just passenger focus and do they have any teeth?

 

[bb21]

Surely there is a regulator that can force NorthernRail to provide me with recompense? Is it just passenger focus and do they have any teeth?

No one can force them.

Passenger Focus may liaise with Northern on your behalf, but don't get your hopes up too high.

 

[Merseysider]

Thank You - I know the law is on their side but I am now out of pocket and time for this. Surely there is a regulator that can force NorthernRail to provide me with recompense? Is it just passenger focus and do they have any teeth?

If you end up paying more than you should have, because you weren't issued the excess to the walk-up ticket you required, then yes, you would be entitled to chase up any money you have paid unnecessarily. As per a brief regarding changes to advance tickets; "maximum flexibility before travel".

Passenger focus don't really have much power. They can help in some cases, but let's worry about that if/when it comes to it.

 

[Hadders]

Most websites do not offer that facility, but the East Coast website does... providing you booked on East Coast? Go to your "My Bookings" page, 'view' the relevant booking and then choose 'Amend Journey'

With East Coast you can amend tickets easily online but they post the new ticket out to you, there doesn't seem to be the facility to collect via ToD.

They will only post out if the amendment is done at least 7 days prior to travel (unless you pay £6.40 extra for special delivery) which is a shame as it effectively ruls ouy making amendments close to the day of travel.

 

[yorkie]

With East Coast you can amend tickets easily online but they post the new ticket out to you, there doesn't seem to be the facility to collect via ToD.

I've been offered Print @ Home before, and it looks like YorkC was recently offered P@H too.

 

[Hadders]

Was that for an EC ticket? The ticket I was trying to amend was a LM one, which might explain the difference.

 

[Starmill]

The only place you're more likely to be fobbed off than at the ticket office is at Northern customer relations. It's impressive just how useless at understanding basic concepts, in addition to how to write letters, they are.

 

[yorkie]

Was that for an EC ticket? The ticket I was trying to amend was a LM one, which might explain the difference.

Ah yes my reply was specifically to the original poster regarding an EC ticket, and was only applicable if he booked on the EC site (which we now realise wasn't the case)

You're quite right that an e-ticket wouldn't be offered for an LM ticket; that explains your different experience.

Good job ticketing is simple, innit?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Are you saying that the ticket office in Leeds should have given me the option to upgrade?....

....I believe so.

They were not using the argument that they were not selling tickets for tomorrow, as they were offering to sell you the £105 ticket. ....

Tricky, I believe the TSA states that a ticket office may sell an excess fare within certain rules (the basic over-riding, peak time, etc stuff), but it does not require an office to do it. I accept that there are alternative interpretations, but even the Retail Standards Guide puts it down as "may choose to sell".

The office would, however, be obliged to offer to sell the Anytime ticket if it is the cheapest available through ticket that is valid for the journey being made, unless the sales point in question is not impartial ("tickets for today" for example).

 

[TUC]

Leeds ticket office is 24 hours for walk up tickets but not for tickets requiring reservations. (You might have issues if you try before the travel centre opens in a morning.)



But if you are upgrading to a walk up ticket I don't think that should matter.
.

Except that Advance tickets are only available at Leeds travel centre and, as detailed in a previous thread, Northern Rail in breach of the requirements they are signed up to, only open the travel centre until 1800 and the ticket counter staff refused to sell my daughter an Advance ticket-something which several months later is still an unresolved complaint with Northern Rail. To make matters worse, today the travel centre closed at 1700 due to staff sickness. I know that sickness can't be avoided but given that after1700 is when most people at work would be able use to use the travel centre it is another example of Northern line Rail's complete ineptness that they could not find cover.

(NB The original quote from asharpe included the travel centre opening hours but they seem to have vanished in the quoting process!)

 

[yorkie]

... several months later is still an unresolved complaint with Northern Rail....

At the recent forum meal in Garforth, it turned out that about half of the 12 people present still had unresolved (and probably never to be resolved) complaints with Northern Rail.

Have you contacted Passenger Focus?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Except that Advance tickets are only available at Leeds travel centre and, as detailed in a previous thread, Northern Rail in breach of the requirements they are signed up to, only open the travel centre until 1800 and the ticket counter staff refused to sell my daughter an Advance ticket-something which several months later is still an unresolved complaint with Northern Rail. To make matters worse, today the travel centre closed at 1700 due to staff sickness. I know that sickness can't be avoided but given that after1700 is when most people at work would be able use to use the travel centre it is another example of Northern line Rail's complete ineptness that they could not find cover.

(NB The original quote from asharpe included the travel centre opening hours but they seem to have vanished in the quoting process!)

The restriction for the issuing of reservations (and tickets that require them) at Leeds ticket office is in Schedule 17, which is an official document in respect of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

In respect of "Northern Rail's ineptness that they could not find cover", you try getting staff to cover at short notice when:

(a) staff cannot be on shift less than twelve hours before their next shift starts.
(b) other offices must remain open for the hours noted in Schedule 17.
(c) other staff may not want to work beyond their rostered hours due to other commitments.
(d) no member of staff can work more than twelve hours in one shift.
(e) no member of staff can work 14 days straight.
(f) staff, on rest day or leave, decide they don't want to/can't/won't work, or it is too short notice for them to get there.

The other day, I was about to finish my seven hour shift (having started work at 6am) when rosters called to see if I wouldn't mind travelling across Manchester to do another four hours at another station (until 1800hrs) because of short notice sickness, leaving me to then travel home and rest before getting up the next day to start another shift at 6am. I declined.

On another occasion, I had booked 'Rest Day Not Available' on the Saturday so that I could travel 200 miles to see my family at a 70th wedding anniversary dinner. On the Sunday, at about noon, I got a call to ask if I could cover for sickness at 1400hrs, I was still 200 miles away from home. I declined.

I'm sure that both these short notice requirements for staff, and my decision not to help out, were very much Northern's fault weren't they?

 

[jerseyhouse]

having seen the responses I would sum up the rail industry ticketing system as unnecessarily complex. Somebody needs to have a complete re-think, break down the barriers between TOCs and put the customer first.

Just saying.....

 

[RJ]

Tricky, I believe the TSA states that a ticket office may sell an excess fare within certain rules (the basic over-riding, peak time, etc stuff), but it does not require an office to do it. I accept that there are alternative interpretations, but even the Retail Standards Guide puts it down as "may choose to sell".

The office would, however, be obliged to offer to sell the Anytime ticket if it is the cheapest available through ticket that is valid for the journey being made, unless the sales point in question is not impartial ("tickets for today" for example).

Yes, but Schedule 24 of the TSA does explain when a passenger has the right to "pay the difference", which I expect would require the seller to issue an excess.

 

[Hadders]

having seen the responses I would sum up the rail industry ticketing system as unnecessarily complex. Somebody needs to have a complete re-think, break down the barriers between TOCs and put the customer first.

Just saying.....

Perhaps you could come up with some suggestions.

Changes would need to be easy to understand, not cause TOC revenue to suffer and protect passenger rights.

Good luck!

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps you could come up with some suggestions....

... in a thread titled "My proposals for a new fare structure" (or similar). It'll not be acceptable to all parties though, that's for sure.

 

[jerseyhouse]

... in a thread titled "My proposals for a new fare structure" (or similar). It'll not be acceptable to all parties though, that's for sure.

And if I started such a thread, and others pitched in, could it change anything?

 

[Haywain]

With East Coast you can amend tickets easily online but they post the new ticket out to you, there doesn't seem to be the facility to collect via ToD.

The ticketing systems do not offer a facility to allow excess fares to be "deferred" for collection elsewhere, only for immediate issue.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, but Schedule 24 of the TSA does explain when a passenger has the right to "pay the difference", which I expect would require the seller to issue an excess.

I believe the wording is "liable to", refers to "the train you are travelling in" and has another outcome listed. Also, do you think that if the clerk were obliged to offer the excess, they would be correct to ignore any Advance fares, even if they were available? Given that they don't have to sell Advance fares in the evenings.

 

[yorkie]

And if I started such a thread, and others pitched in, could it change anything?

I don't think it's possible to achieve a better system that's fair, reasonable and doesn't either result in fare rises or loss of income for operators. If it was, then yes. But as it's not, no.