In Court Over Unpaid Fare

[winnerjord]

Hi guys would appreciate some brisk advice if that's possible!

Last year I was attending the unpaid fares desk to try and pay for a ticket to get through the gates. I DO usually buy a ticket but for this particularly long journey I simply could not afford the several hundred pounds to replace my passport ready for a job application.

I made this situation worse for myself by overlooking the settlement offer I received through the post and I received a court summons last week.

My question to everyone here is how I should plea, guilty or not guilty. I had cash and cards to pay for the ticket and I have already sent in a humble appeal for this to be withdrawn from court, offering to pay the ticket and admin costs in exchange for avoiding court.

I have been told that I still need to return the plea to them before they can decide what to do with my case. Bearing in mind I am due in court in 3 days, I am not sure whether to accept guilt or not.

Thanks!

 

[Haywain]

We tend to advocate honesty here. However, that either means pleading guilty to something that is blatantly untrue, or pleading not guilty and producing a defence of having lied. Good luck with making that choice.

 

[winnerjord]

Thanks for your response, I appreciate the input but that isn't too constructive I could really do with some advice.

 

[Agent_c]

Not entirely sure what advice you're wanting to hear, although I think you know that the advice your expecting is coming.

Transport doesn't operate on a "if you can't afford it don't worry" basis. If you can afford a passport, you can afford to travel.

I can't ethically or morally tell you to plead guilty or not guilty as you are perpetuating your line of deceit. You might get off with saving a little if you do continue with either option, but it's not the right thing to do.

The only thing I can advise is own up to your mistake and do the right thing. Tell them you lied and pay the right amount, plus costs for wasting their time. If you're looking for moral absolution, forget it.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not going to presume to give you any advice, sorry. You've created this situation for yourself, so I'm sure you are more than capable of making a decision on how to proceed.

 

[winnerjord]

Im not really looking for moral absolution nor financial advice, I was looking for a down to earth response about a legal strategy. I personally think it's pretty disgusting how much the railway costs to use and I thought if I was honest about that to this community, it would prompt a less judgmental (and more constructive) response from people.

I know what I did was wrong, however I am not about to put my foot in it and admit further wrongdoing to the court than I am charged of, that would be absurd.

 

[bb21]

If you are still told to enter a plea, to my untrained eye I would imagine that this is going to court regardless. Should you plead not guilty, you will likely be cross-examined, at which point your lies may be uncovered. You may let something slip, or that during questioning you subconsciously admit to the actual origin of your journey.

It is almost impossible to advise what the best way is, which partly explains the lack of responses. There are big risks attached to pleading both ways. It depends on what your biggest priority is, be it avoiding a criminal record, a financial penalty as small as possible, or else.

What do the court papers say exactly?

but for this particularly long journey I simply could not afford the several hundred pounds to replace my passport ready for a job application.

Also, this bit makes no sense to me. What you do mean by that? Why should it cost several hundred pounds to replace a passport? How is the cost of replacing your passport relate to the cost of travel?

 

[LateThanNever]

Hi guys would appreciate some brisk advice if that's possible!

Last year I was attending the unpaid fares desk to try and pay for a ticket to get through the gates. It is true that I had not purchased a ticket for the journey, apologies if anyone disagrees with that on a moral basis. I DO usually buy a ticket but for this particularly long journey I simply could not afford the several hundred pounds to replace my passport ready for a job application.

I was then interviewed by a revenue inspector and panicked about my journey, lying about where I had come from, saying I had come from much closer (the town I reside at). I believe I must have convinced them about where I had travelled from because that is the cost of the ticket they are looking to recover, and there is no question anywhere about my journey. I told the revenue inspector that I had purchased a ticket and simply lost it.

I made this situation worse for myself by overlooking the settlement offer I received through the post and I received a court summons last week.

My question to everyone here is how I should plea, guilty or not guilty. I had cash and cards to pay for the ticket and I have already sent in a humble appeal for this to be withdrawn from court, offering to pay the ticket and admin costs in exchange for avoiding court.

I have been told that I still need to return the plea to them before they can decide what to do with my case. Bearing in mind I am due in court in 3 days, I am not sure whether to accept guilt or not.

Thanks!

If you do not plead guilty you'll be subject to further enquiries/cross examination and may have to admit you travelled further than you said. So it is now too late not keep it simple! You may not be guilty of the offence as charged but you have in effect admitted guilt by offering to settle...

 

[Clip]

Im not really looking for moral absolution nor financial advice, I was looking for a down to earth response about a legal strategy. I personally think it's pretty disgusting how much the railway costs to use and I thought if I was honest about that to this community, it would prompt a less judgmental (and more constructive) response from people.

I know what I did was wrong, however I am not about to put my foot in it and admit further wrongdoing to the court than I am charged of, that would be absurd.

How much it costs is irrelevant seeing as you didnt pay for it. I think its pretty disgusting that people continue to not pay for their journeys on our trains.All across the land. Every single day. Its even worse when people lie about it too and then expect some help from others as they have ignored court papers already.

Do let us know how you get on though.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would strongly advise that you seek professional legal advice, even if it's just a free 30 minute consultation and you can't get representation due to costs (though legal aid may be available) or time. I suspect that as they've asked you to still enter a plea it seems unlikely that they'd be willing to accept your offer to settle out of court. If the matter does go to court then I feel it's probably beyond the capabilities of web forum to give you the advice you need. We're good but in the face of a criminal prosecution I'd be looking for certified legal experts not the opinions of a forum.

That being said my personal opinion is that if you state that you're not guilty and it is discovered that you lied about where you came from to try and pay a lower fare that is not going to be looked favorably upon by a judge when it comes to sentencing.

 

[island]

I'm sorry, but if you can afford a passport, you can afford to pay for your train.

Can you clarify what offence you're charged with? Is it something like "entering a train for the purpose of travel", "failed to hand over a ticket for inspection", or "travelled on the railway without previously paying your fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof"? If it's the latter, I hope you're not planning on travelling outside Europe as many countries will refuse you due to the criminal record you're likely to pick up.

 

[ian959]

Im not really looking for moral absolution nor financial advice, I was looking for a down to earth response about a legal strategy. I personally think it's pretty disgusting how much the railway costs to use and I thought if I was honest about that to this community, it would prompt a less judgmental (and more constructive) response from people.

I know what I did was wrong, however I am not about to put my foot in it and admit further wrongdoing to the court than I am charged of, that would be absurd.

So basically you have a seriously haywire moral compass and expect the forum to help you decide what to do? I rather think you have answered your own question... you have no choice to pleading guilty as the path of least resistance but that would be your choice, not my advice to you.

 

[Flamingo]

My advice would be to catch a bus next time. People like you are the ones that make it harder for people who have made an honest mistake to get a fair hearing.

 

[Greenback]

I strongly agree with the replies given by bb21, ainswort74 and Flamingo. Though you seem to have made your own mind up, as I thought you would.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you plea 'Not Guilty' then the chances are that the case will be deferred so that the Prosecution Witness can be brought into Court to present the evidence against you. Presumably you would have sound reasons for pleading 'Not Guilty', such as intending to expose the Prosecution's Evidence as being unreliable during cross-examination. Perhaps you also have your own witness who will provide evidence which further undermines the Prosecution Evidence against you.
You (or your solicitor) will also disclose your evidence to the Prosecution.

If this isn't what you are going to do, then I'd expect you'll be making a plea of 'Guilty'.

If you do plea 'Not Guilty', and incur the extra costs of the deferred hearing and of the Witness being pulled off front-line duties to attend the Court, and then you still fail to persuade the Court of your innocence, then the costs against you will have increased, and any discount for an early plea will have been lost.

Does this help you to decide?

 

[Class377]

Looking at it from the Train Operating Company's point of view (ignoring the fact that you lied about the station, which in itself is a much more serious offence):

• You didn't buy a ticket until you saw you had to at the destination (The "I lost my ticket" excuse is one tried on by fare evaders every day.
• You were unable to pay for something you had already used.
• You ignored a further request for payment, even after they wrote to you about it.

If they were to let you off now with just paying the (short) fare and an admin fee, it wouldn't be a deterrent and people would refuse to pay every time until they got a court summons!

I'm not sure why you're still only offering to pay for the short ticket rather than the full journey you undertook but continuing to avoid paying the full fare could well stack up against you. As has been previously mentioned in this thread, questioning in court is very difficult to lie through and any holes in your story will be picked apart.

However, I cannot advise you to plead guilty to what you are accused of either, as it is not the full picture. I believe lying about an origin station is sufficient evidence for a Regulation of the Railways Act prosecution but I imagine you're currently "getting away" with a non-recordable byelaw prosecution for merely failing to show a ticket (although I could be wrong).

Please do advise us where and when the court date is, I'm sure several members would like to spectate (and some may even bring popcorn and fizzy drinks!)

 

[cjmillsnun]

My advice, plead guilty.

You are guilty (of worse than you're being charged with), you have admitted so on here, there are no mitigating factors, plead and pay up. Not content with wasting the Railway's time, you're now thinking of wasting court time.

The only other option would be to plead not guilty, because you are guilty of lying about your origin station. Either way you're going to end up paying.

 

[richw]

Also, this bit makes no sense to me. What you do mean by that? Why should it cost several hundred pounds to replace a passport? How is the cost of replacing your passport relate to the cost of travel?

The court will not accept the several hundred pounds for a passport as an excuse. Even for the most premium same day passport servcie, it isn't several hundred pounds.

From what you've told us here I would plead guilty to keep the penalty as low as possible.
Pleading not guilty is likely to result in you in court giving your story, and look how it's been torn apart here, it will get ripped to shreds in the court by professionals.
Have you considered Contactimg the TOC and make a substantial offer to have the court hearing adjourned. Your looking at the missed fare, administration fees, the court hearing fee, and at this late stage an adjournment fee as well, and covering those costs before I see a TOC even considering settling before court.

 

[Abpj17]

I personally think it's pretty disgusting how much the railway costs to use

It would cost less if people actually paid for their travel rather than short-change the railways (and by association those passengers who buy a ticket valid for their journey)

 

[DelayRepay]

I personally think it's pretty disgusting how much the railway costs to use

I agree, some walk up fares are disgusting. But if faced with one of these fares, there are a number of legitimate choices: Don't travel, travel at a different time when it may be cheaper, try to find a different ticket which might be cheaper (we can help with that on here), use a coach or bus, don't travel at all, etc.

I think the price of petrol is disgusting but I don't use that as justification for driving off without paying!

If you decide to plead not guilty, what will your defense be?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Why did you ignore the settlement offer? You know that was your chance to pay and have done with this.

Do courts offer a "final chance" settlement (at the court) before a hearing goes ahead? A strange question but I do know this has been an option for at least one TOC in the past.

As others have said, only you can make that choice of what to plead. My advice would be to own up and hope you are not made an example of. I would be very humble as any arrogance will be frowned upon. It is impossible to predict what the court will say on the day.

 

[dakta]

If you decide to plead not guilty, what will your defense be?

I'll be honest, from my (somewhat uninformed I'll admit) interpretation that was the defence.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But there is no defence.

You didn't buy a ticket at the start of your journey. Similarly you overlooked a chance to pay when you received an out of court settlement.

I really don't know how you could possibly plead not guilty - unless you have another reason that you haven't mentioned on here.

Pleading guilty will reduce court time and the need for cross-examining. You never know - the judge "might" be lenient... (but then s)he might not...)

As someone has asked already, when is the hearing?

 

[Agent_c]

But there is no defence.

You didn't buy a ticket at the start of your journey. Similarly you overlooked a chance to pay when you received an out of court settlement.

I really don't know how you could possibly plead not guilty - unless you have another reason that you haven't mentioned on here.

Pleading guilty will reduce court time and the need for cross-examining. You never know - the judge "might" be lenient... (but then s)he might not...)

As someone has asked already, when is the hearing?

The only grounds that he can plead not guilty on is on the grounds that he didn't make the journey alleged, he made a different journey.

They bought his second lie, (that whilst he did make a journey without a ticket, but different to the one he actually did).

If he Pleads guilty, he lies again to confirm that second lie.
If he Pleads not guilty, he's seeking to be let off from all the lies.

It looks like he now wants to take advantage of the company working on the lies he provided to get off completely.

I dont think there is a course of action anyone can ethically offer except to put the railway company straight about the facts, and compensate them for the time wasted working on his deceit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'll be honest, from my (somewhat uninformed I'll admit) interpretation that was the defence.

No, That is your pleading, not your defence.

On what grounds are you not guilty? This is your defence.

You did make a journey without a ticket and with no intention to pay for it., but you didn't make the journey they are prosecuting you for.

You could argue an "error in fact" as your defence (that the journey did not occur), but by doing so you'd be seeking to basically profit of your earlier lie.

Plus, if you did that, the prosecution would probably just amend their claim to match the journey you now said you'd taken. That you'd lied up about it until then would be proof of your intention not to pay (ie- Defraud the railway).

 

[Class377]

Of course, if a representative from the railway company is reading this forum and is able to confirm the identity of this poster, there could well be a contempt of court charge for lying about the journey when pleading guilty.

 

[Busaholic]

Why did you ignore the settlement offer? You know that was your chance to pay and have done with this.

Do courts offer a "final chance" settlement (at the court) before a hearing goes ahead? A strange question but I do know this has been an option for at least one TOC in the past.

As others have said, only you can make that choice of what to plead. My advice would be to own up and hope you are not made an example of. I would be very humble as any arrogance will be frowned upon. It is impossible to predict what the court will say on the day.

Fork out for a lawyer - he/she may well advise a guilty plea, but a decent one might be able to get a few words with the prosecuting lawyer beforehand ( they might well know one another) and it might just be possible to get the case stayed. Even if not, a guilty plea with mitigating spiel from your solicitor might just make the consequences better for you. I'm coming from an ex-Probation Service point of view, so may be less judgmental than some on here!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I have re-read your first post and see your day in court is Thursday. Have you entered your plea yet?

Please do not mention the fact that you couldn't afford the money for your passport - this has absolutely no relevance to this case.

Have you sought legal advice?

 

[Puffing Devil]

To the OP: You are guilty. It's an open and shut case on the facts provided. If you wish to enter a not-guilty plea you can now expect to be questioned about the basis of that plea in court before any trial. The bench will no doubt highlight the weakness in your defence, which is, in reality, mitigation.

Do courts offer a "final chance" settlement (at the court) before a hearing goes ahead? A strange question but I do know this has been an option for at least one TOC in the past.

The court does not offer an option, though the TOC can discontinue proceedings at any point should they wish.

 

[DelayRepay]

The only grounds that he can plead not guilty on is on the grounds that he didn't make the journey alleged, he made a different journey.

They bought his second lie, (that whilst he did make a journey without a ticket, but different to the one he actually did).

Regardless of the lie, if the journey was from A to C and he claimed it was from B to C, then if he passed through B he still committed the offence i.e. travelled between B and C without a valid ticket.

in any case his court date is Thursday. Hopefully he'll come back and let us know how he got on.

 

[Andrew1395]

The OP only signed up hoping to gain some advantage to avoid the consequences of their fare avoidance. Even if the fare is expensive, there are very few train journeys where a cheaper mode is not available. Just because something you want is more expensive then you consider it should be does not mean you should steal it without facing the consequences.