Trivia: Furthest walk within "one" LU station?

[simple simon]

It was at Montparnasse that the French experimented with a high speed moving walkway. For various reasons this was later replaced with a normal speed walkway.

Since the Thameslink platforms at Kings Cross were relocated to St Pancras so interchange with the Victoria Line (especially) has morphed from heaven to hell. The only advantage is that if you wish to use the "facilities" then the OSI walking time should be sufficient for this too. Those who know where they are may find that the loos nearer the new Thameslink platforms are less busy.

Simon


Edit to add:

I've done some sleuthing; the high speed walkway can be seen at the youtube link below. There is also much information in the text below the video about this and why it closed.

http://youtu.be/pBJN1X3LeJw

 

[Busaholic]

It was at Montparnasse that the French experimented with a high speed moving walkway. For various reasons this was later replaced with a normal speed walkway.

Since the Thameslink platforms at Kings Cross were relocated to St Pancras so interchange with the Victoria Line (especially) has morphed from heaven to hell. The only advantage is that if you wish to use the "facilities" then the OSI walking time should be sufficient for this too. Those who know where they are may find that the loos nearer the new Thameslink platforms are less busy.

Simon


Edit to add:

I've done some sleuthing; the high speed walkway can be seen at the youtube link below. There is also much information in the text below the video about this and why it closed.

http://youtu.be/pBJN1X3LeJw

That brought back memories - one of my first ever trips on the Paris metro was to Montparnasse and I thought all their stations were going to have those walkways, so bitter disappointment ensued! While the video was playing an ad for shoes was showing on my computer. Nowadays I walk so slowly I'd be worried about being catapaulted off the end of it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But my pet hate is the new 'via the northern ticket hall' Kings Cross St Pancras. A right old shlep if you are unfortunate enough to be coming off the Victoria line. Again it's best to ignore the signs and go via the Met/Circle route if heading for St Pancras Eurostar. And are they deliberately undersigning the old Thameslink entrance so they can get away with closure?

Is making passengers walk further part of the current grandiosity fashion in station design

The station is designed like that to accommodate the number of people using it. It used to be regularly closed due to overcrowding, and even now the southern ticket hall regularly needs to be made exit-only due to the crowds in the morning peak.

The old Thameslink ticket hall is only open during the day and is unlikely to be closed, as it is well used by commuters heading down Grays Inn Road.

The JLE passageways are so long because the JLE was often built quite a way from the existing tunnels to try and prevent subsidence.

 

[CC 72100]

Yes Montparnasse- result of the 70s rebuild which put the station back down the line and allowed the construction of a new shopping centre. The metro station stayed where it was lol. Les Halles is pretty terrible too.

Montparnasse and Chatelet Les Halles are pretty awful. On the latter, you always get dawdlers on the moving walkway who don't do the whole 'stand to the right and let others pass' thing. I've not got a map to hand, but I swear that on one metro line, 'Chatelet' and 'Les Halles' are two separate stations.

Gare de Lyon and Nation RER A to metro line 1 can also be lengthy interchanges, although it is slightly quicker at Nation - one night on my way home from work, me and a colleague tested this, and despite my colleague spending longer on the RER (faster) by changing at Gare de Lyon, I was waiting on the platform for his train at Nation.

While not the same station, the various metro stations that can be accessed by walkways from Auber RER are also a fair walk.

 

[Taunton]

Another very poor one is West Ham, District to Jubilee. The District is elevated, the Jubilee is at ground level. From the District you have to go down to ground level, back up again to an upper level, and finally down again to the Jubilee platform. When standing here you can then look at the District Line overbridge and work out how a single set of steps between the two island platforms would fit in.

The long passage at Waterloo between the Jubilee and the rest goes on for ever, and there are considerable further link passages at both ends as well.

I don't know how the Jubilee Extension managed to get all those architectural awards for design when each interchange is tortuous and such a long way round. It's a real turn-your-back on the convenient connections put in for the Victoria Line, which much was made of when that opened and which cut many minutes off using it. Someone pointed out that where the two cross at Green Park, while the link between them is one of the worst interchanges on the Victoria, it's one of the best for the Jubilee!

Canary Wharf is another, Jubilee to DLR. The link is via a dogleg of passages through the shopping centre, minimally signed, where many who don't know the layout get lost along the way.

 

[edwin_m]

Another very poor one is West Ham, District to Jubilee. The District is elevated, the Jubilee is at ground level. From the District you have to go down to ground level, back up again to an upper level, and finally down again to the Jubilee platform. When standing here you can then look at the District Line overbridge and work out how a single set of steps between the two island platforms would fit in.

The long passage at Waterloo between the Jubilee and the rest goes on for ever, and there are considerable further link passages at both ends as well.

I don't know how the Jubilee Extension managed to get all those architectural awards for design when each interchange is tortuous and such a long way round. It's a real turn-your-back on the convenient connections put in for the Victoria Line, which much was made of when that opened and which cut many minutes off using it. Someone pointed out that where the two cross at Green Park, while the link between them is one of the worst interchanges on the Victoria, it's one of the best for the Jubilee!

Canary Wharf is another, Jubilee to DLR. The link is via a dogleg of passages through the shopping centre, minimally signed, where many who don't know the layout get lost along the way.

The Jubilee suffers from being the most recent Tube so having to fit round all the others. On the 1990s extension accessibility requirements also meant that its platforms had to be straight and served by lifts, imposing further constraints. The need for an evacuation walkway probably also ruled out what was done on the Victoria line, where a big effort was made to get cross-platform interchange by taking over platform tunnels from other lines at several stations. So the Victoria is probably one of the best Tubes for slick interchanges and the Jubilee one of the worst!

As for Canary Wharf, it is actually far quicker to interchange on the surface than through the underground shopping centres. I suspect they've taken a leaf out of the airports' book and the signed route is designed to take people past as many shops as possible. Look for something similar to happen with Crossrail.

 

[317666]

Montparnasse and Chatelet Les Halles are pretty awful. On the latter, you always get dawdlers on the moving walkway who don't do the whole 'stand to the right and let others pass' thing. I've not got a map to hand, but I swear that on one metro line, 'Chatelet' and 'Les Halles' are two separate stations.

Gare de Lyon and Nation RER A to metro line 1 can also be lengthy interchanges, although it is slightly quicker at Nation - one night on my way home from work, me and a colleague tested this, and despite my colleague spending longer on the RER (faster) by changing at Gare de Lyon, I was waiting on the platform for his train at Nation.

While not the same station, the various metro stations that can be accessed by walkways from Auber RER are also a fair walk.

It's on the 4 that Chatelet and Les Halles are separate stations - I was there a few weeks ago and from memory the longest interchange there was from the RER to line 7, which is signposted as something like a 15 minute walk!
Agreed about Auber, I tried walking from the RER A to Saint-Lazare for my Transilien train one night, nearly ended up missing it as it was such a long way!

 

[CC 72100]

Agreed about Auber, I tried walking from the RER A to Saint-Lazare for my Transilien train one night, nearly ended up missing it as it was such a long way!

Using a Transilien train from St Lazare in the evening - you are one brave soul!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Canary Wharf is another, Jubilee to DLR. The link is via a dogleg of passages through the shopping centre, minimally signed, where many who don't know the layout get lost along the way.

Heron Quays DLR is closer to Canary Wharf tube station. The DLR and tube stations are marked on the diagram as one station, I know, but they're not really.

 

[Taunton]

The Jubilee suffers from being the most recent Tube so having to fit round all the others.

But the Victoria was the one prior to that, and was able to "fit round" fine, in fact it's probably the best overall in London for achieving that.

Regarding the accessibility provisions, I suggest trying to get from the Jubilee to the surface at Green Park step-free. Takes about 15 minutes. It actually requires three lifts and a lot of passages to get out.

 

[edwin_m]

But the Victoria was the one prior to that, and was able to "fit round" fine, in fact it's probably the best overall in London for achieving that.

Indeed, as I pointed out in my previous post. But there was no attempt to provide step-free access on the Victoria when it was built, and that is one reason why it has better interchange.

 

[Taunton]

Indeed, as I pointed out in my previous post. But there was no attempt to provide step-free access on the Victoria when it was built, and that is one reason why it has better interchange.

Ironically there was splendid step-free interchange, such as between the Victoria and both branches, separately, of the Northern, by direct cross-platform interchange at Euston and Warren Street, rather than nonsenses like West Ham, which require three lifts to dogleg between the District and the Jubilee.

 

[spinba11]

It's not-cross interchange at Warren Street, and exitin from the Jubliee at Green Park step-free can be done with 2 lifts depending on where you want to go.

 

[Busaholic]

It's not-cross interchange at Warren Street, and exitin from the Jubliee at Green Park step-free can be done with 2 lifts depending on where you want to go.

Which makes it even more tragic that Charing Cross Jubilee Line station, with its easy peasy escalator up to the exit, got closed. A lot of people making for the St James's area would use that for preference to Green Park.

 

[leytongabriel]

So OK there may be reasons for channelling people certain ways at Kings Cross to reduce overcrowding but that doesn't excuse the abysmal signing to the Pentonville Rd exit. Likewise the long exit / change routes on the Jubilee line extension and the ELL aren't always because there are complicated junctions or passovers with other lines. Isn't it about tick-box design practice and architects /planners simply not putting themslves in the position of passengers?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The long passages are there for a reason, partly because design standards meant that you couldn't run the tunnels as close together as you used to. The Heathrow tunnel collapse of 1994 was fresh in the mind when the JLE was being built, and so they were much more defensive with their tunneling.

Bear in mind that Green Park, used as a bad example here, was built as part of the Fleet Line.

Westminster was designed as it is to avoid subsidence on the Elizabeth Tower- which has moved slightly anyway- and there's similar issues at Waterloo. I can't think of another ridiculously long interchange on the JLE, other than West Ham which couldn't really be avoided.

 

[Taunton]

...... architects /planners simply not putting themslves in the position of passengers?

I certainly feel the Jubilee stations majored too much on the egos of architects working in isolation of the other lines.

The Heathrow tunnel collapse of 1994 was fresh in the mind when the JLE was being built, and so they were much more defensive with their tunneling.

Ah, had a bit of involvement with this one. The principal cause of the collapse was nothing to do with the designed alignment, but that the contractor didn't know how to construct the tunnels, and the engineering consultants, who were subbies to the main contractor, had their involvement pared right back, to save costs.

http://www.cnplus.co.uk/news/judge-...heathrow-disgrace/913351.article#.VNnpAE9F3IU

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ah, had a bit of involvement with this one. The principal cause of the collapse was nothing to do with the designed alignment, but that the contractor didn't know how to construct the tunnels, and the engineering consultants, who were subbies to the main contractor, had their involvement pared right back, to save costs.

Very true, although I seem to recall that at the time they didn't know if it was contractor incompetence or a problem with the actual tunnelling method, as the method had never been used in London before.

There was also the Kings Cross fire to consider, which is why the stations are so airy.

There is also a fair bit of ego, I'll give you that. I think North Greenwich, in particular, is ridiculously over-engineered.

It'll be interesting to see how they do the Northern Line Extension.

 

[Taunton]

There is also a fair bit of ego, I'll give you that. I think North Greenwich, in particular, is ridiculously over-engineered.

Jubilee Line was funded principally by the government. I understand the Battersea extension is principally developer and TfL funded.

At the end of the JLE project The Treasury had their own investigation into the costs (and cost overruns), and word went back to DfT that never again was an engineering project to be allowed to become an architect's dream at public expense. In particular The Treasury picked up on the number of architectural awards the stations received, almost one each station. It was pointed out in no uncertain terms that this was a public transport utility, not something for self-seeking designers to trumpet their awards with. Crossrail will be a lot more straightforward.

 

[Busaholic]

Jubilee Line was funded principally by the government. I understand the Battersea extension is principally developer and TfL funded.

At the end of the JLE project The Treasury had their own investigation into the costs (and cost overruns), and word went back to DfT that never again was an engineering project to be allowed to become an architect's dream at public expense. In particular The Treasury picked up on the number of architectural awards the stations received, almost one each station. It was pointed out in no uncertain terms that this was a public transport utility, not something for self-seeking designers to trumpet their awards with. Crossrail will be a lot more straightforward.

Although I agree that tube stations shouldn't be built with the architect's self-aggrandisement in mind, design of stations has always been important in London since the days of Holden and Frank Pick, and pure functionality ansd costparing must never be the only goals. North Greenwich station merely reflected all the egotism that went into construction of the Millenium Dome, surely the most overblown building project of the last century in the U.K.

 

[Hadders]

Although I agree that tube stations shouldn't be built with the architect's self-aggrandisement in mind, design of stations has always been important in London since the days of Holden and Frank Pick, and pure functionality ansd costparing must never be the only goals. North Greenwich station merely reflected all the egotism that went into construction of the Millenium Dome, surely the most overblown building project of the last century in the U.K.

I agree that the design of stations is important.

On North Greenwich I'd have though the station designs were signed off long before the Millennium Dome came along. IIRC construction of the Dome was authorised in 1996, which by then North Greenwich (and the rest of the JLE) must have been under construction as it opened in 1999 (and this was behind schedule).

 

[Hophead]

On a London Open House visit to Stratford Depot many, many years ago, the engineer showing us around enthused about the quality of the building and its many facilities but also added that, if his company were paying for it, a corrugated metal shed would have sufficed.

I may be simplifying the message with the passing of time, but the overall intent was clear.

 

[RJ]

Other posters have suggested there is a much quicker way if you ignore the signs. Perhaps someone could elucidate on here - I'd be grateful to know for my next London trip.

There are on a few places on the Underground. There are a few shortcuts for interchange between KGX and STP and between those stations and the various LU lines.

I regularly interchange bewteen the Victoria Line and EMT. My preferred route is to follow the signs to KGX and proceed via the Eurostar concourse. Probably not the best route for the masses as it involves crossing a busy road.

 

[Kite159]

There are on a few places on the Underground. There are a few shortcuts for interchange between KGX and STP and between those stations and the various LU lines.

I regularly interchange bewteen the Victoria Line and EMT. My preferred route is to follow the signs to KGX and proceed via the Eurostar concourse. Probably not the best route for the masses as it involves crossing a busy road.

Seems to be a similar route I take when heading towards the EMT platforms, getting out of the underground system at the Euston Road exit and walking across Pancras Road, seems to be quicker than staying in the tunnels

 

[Busaholic]

I agree that the design of stations is important.

On North Greenwich I'd have though the station designs were signed off long before the Millennium Dome came along. IIRC construction of the Dome was authorised in 1996, which by then North Greenwich (and the rest of the JLE) must have been under construction as it opened in 1999 (and this was behind schedule).

From memory, the Dome first became promulgated about a year after the Major election win in 1992, so that would be c 1993 and Michael Heseltine was put in charge of finding a purpose for it should it be built and it took many a twist before, almost at the last possible minute, agreement was finally reached in 1996 to construct the damned thing, even though no half-useful ideas in how to fill it had been arrived at. Meanwhile the Jubilee extension to Stratford had been given the go-ahead to ensure that Canary Wharf was not going to be an even whiter elephant, but the North Greenwich station and the extra two underground crossings necessary to serve it were not part of the original plan, so no architectural designs for a station there would have even got to a drawing board. The political decision to incorporate North Greenwich into the plans in order to 'open up the area for housing and other development' ,with talk of a branch on to Thamesmead,thus happened at roughly the same time, which could be a terrific coincidence if you believe in such things or real politick, so I am sure the station was designed with the millenium celebrations in mind, 'eyes of the world, GMT, rivers of fire,etc etc'.And what happened to that Thamesmead branch? The extra platform at NG is the sum total, not that it was never on the cards, you understand.

 

[Rick1984]

I experienced this on the Victoria going to Kings X just over a week ago. Without thinking I followed the exit signs, not the Kings X and my transfer was much quicker, as I didn't have to transverse the long link corridor.

This route brings you out at the exit from Kings X platforms so guess this is why it's not posted that way.

 

[Tetchytyke]

On North Greenwich I'd have though the station designs were signed off long before the Millennium Dome came along. IIRC construction of the Dome was authorised in 1996, which by then North Greenwich (and the rest of the JLE) must have been under construction as it opened in 1999 (and this was behind schedule).

I don't think the original plan for the JLE had it going to North Greenwich. The station there, and the two extra river crossings it required, were specified by the Government because of the Dome.

As Busaholic says, they were planning a branch to Thamesmead, which is how they attempted to justify the expense of the extra two river crossings and the big station at North Greenwich. Of that branch to Thamesmead, nothing else has been done, and it is no longer on TfL's agenda.

 

[Taunton]

From memory, the Dome first became promulgated about a year after the Major election win in 1992, so that would be c 1993 and Michael Heseltine was put in charge .... Meanwhile the Jubilee extension to Stratford had been given the go-ahead to ensure that Canary Wharf was not going to be an even whiter elephant, but the North Greenwich station and the extra two underground crossings necessary to serve it were not part of the original plan, .... And what happened to that Thamesmead branch?

Heseltine was long responsible for the Docklands redevelopment overall at cabinet level so projects there were a natural for him.

Canary Wharf is most certainly not a white elephant and in fact built up significantly faster and ultimately larger than other urban renewals elsewhere such as La Defense in Paris. The rush hour conditions there on the DLR in 1998-9, just before the Jubilee opened, were a key issue for the whole UK financial industry.

The Thamesmead branch has of course ended up on Crossrail. Modelling of demand quite early on showed that the Jubilee eastbound from Canary Wharf, connecting to the LTS, Great Eastern and Central Line was going to be carrying full loads, and diverting half its service to a Thamesmead branch was just not possible - as indeed is the current reality.

 

[Busaholic]

Heseltine was long responsible for the Docklands redevelopment overall at cabinet level so projects there were a natural for him.

Canary Wharf is most certainly not a white elephant and in fact built up significantly faster and ultimately larger than other urban renewals elsewhere such as La Defense in Paris. The rush hour conditions there on the DLR in 1998-9, just before the Jubilee opened, were a key issue for the whole UK financial industry.

The Thamesmead branch has of course ended up on Crossrail. Modelling of demand quite early on showed that the Jubilee eastbound from Canary Wharf, connecting to the LTS, Great Eastern and Central Line was going to be carrying full loads, and diverting half its service to a Thamesmead branch was just not possible - as indeed is the current reality.

I don't know whether the full. unexpurgated story of Canary Wharf and Docklands has ever appeared in book form (given the timidity of our defamation laws, probably not) but the colossal sums of public money (ours) spent on giving them every conceivable opportunity to stop it being a white elephant almost didn't work out and it's quite possible that without the Jubilee extension the whole caboodle would have gone belly up. The role of Mr John Mills (husband of Barbara Mills, who became Director of Public Prosecutions, and who is now dead) and brother of Mr David Mills,husband of would-be London mayor Tessa Jowell is very interesting and would justify searchengine searching.

Of course the Thamesmead extension was never intended to be built as part of the Jubilee Line. Stratford was always going to be the place for the Olympics if London 'won' it and that was where all the trains on the line were going to end up, or why provide so many platforms? North Greenwich, with the extra platforms, could always be used to turn trains short if it proved embarassing to run too many empty trains all the way, but, of course, in the end money talked and that eventuality wasn't needed.

 

[edwin_m]

When I was a reasonably regular user of the route in 2009-2010, a significant proportion of peak hour Jubilee trains turned back at North Greenwich - I think the 7-car project may have ended that by providing some extra complete trains too. Now the Dome is a major venue the third platform probably comes in handy for end-of-event extras. For those that don't know, the provision for a future southeastward branch can be seen from a train arriving/departing the east end of North Greenwich.