Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[ainsworth74]

It's how they're going to get the journey time savings because, as far as I'm aware, there are no plans to increase line speeds as a part of the franchise.

 

[hibtastic]

2+4 for Aberdeen to Inverness and 2+5 for everywhere else I reckon.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It's how they're going to get the journey time savings because, as far as I'm aware, there are no plans to increase line speeds as a part of the franchise.

There are some places with higher speed limits for HSTs than for Sprinters/170s. Also, putting two power cars capable of pushing-and-pulling 9 carriages to 200km/h at either end of a rake of four, five or six carriages is only going to improve acceleration and thus decrease journey times even if linespeeds themselves don't increase.

 

[WatcherZero]

Probably much better performance near the top end of speed range though at low speeds so much power must mean increased chance of wheel slip?

 

[SkinnyDave]

Anyone know which Train Crew depots will work this line? Gala and Edinburgh being the obvious two

 

[170401]

Interesting stuff from Abellio re the use of HSTs - http://www.abellio.com/scotrail-passenger-story/true-intercity-railway-network-scotland

I hope they know what they are doing with these services, especially with the 2+4 sets. With 2 coaches dedicated to a buffet car and 1st class that only leaves a little over 2 coaches for standard class (TGS + TSO + part of the buffet). Not sure how much 1st class is (or is intended) to be used but a full coach seems a bit of a waste to me. There are quite a few peak services that operate as 170/158, sometimes splitting en route, how do these compare with a 2+5 set I wonder.

Can any of the more knowledgeable forum members give us a comparison on seat numbers between the Mk3's and a standard 170?

Sorry if I keep sounding cynical about this plan but I just can't help getting the feeling it's all going to end in tears.

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I'm also curious to understand how they will cope with peak demand over the longer distances. At the moment many Southbound trains on a Friday are impossible to get a seat on, and even finding standing room can be a struggle on some services. Similarly the 1945 Glasgow - Aberdeen on a Sunday evening is just ridiculous (Previously booked as 2x170 but now only 1). When it was 2 units it was busy but comfortable throughout, now you're lucky to even get a look inside it.

 

[Murph]

I hope they know what they are doing with these services, especially with the 2+4 sets. With 2 coaches dedicated to a buffet car and 1st class that only leaves a little over 2 coaches for standard class (TGS + TSO + part of the buffet). Not sure how much 1st class is (or is intended) to be used but a full coach seems a bit of a waste to me. There are quite a few peak services that operate as 170/158, sometimes splitting en route, how do these compare with a 2+5 set I wonder.

I think they are going to be offering something like £10 first advance fares between any 2 cities, if memory serves. I can see that generating a fair bit of demand for first class seats.

Hopefully there's enough wisdom around to have more trailers in warm storage, so that they can lengthen the trains to 2+6 out of Queen Street, or 2+long out of Waverley, if the services are popular. With careful scheduling, they can do 2+8 out of the eastern platform in Queen Street, and hopefully that will still be the case after redevelopment. That should be a bit of an ace in the hole for them with the HSTs, plenty of stock availability in terms of both power cars and trailers, if demand is strong.

 

[sprinterguy]

I hope they know what they are doing with these services, especially with the 2+4 sets. With 2 coaches dedicated to a buffet car and 1st class that only leaves a little over 2 coaches for standard class (TGS + TSO + part of the buffet). Not sure how much 1st class is (or is intended) to be used but a full coach seems a bit of a waste to me. There are quite a few peak services that operate as 170/158, sometimes splitting en route, how do these compare with a 2+5 set I wonder.

Can any of the more knowledgeable forum members give us a comparison on seat numbers between the Mk3's and a standard 170?

Sorry if I keep sounding cynical about this plan but I just can't help getting the feeling it's all going to end in tears.

It’s not made clear whether there will be a full coach of first class seating, or whether “one carriage…reserved for a dedicated first class service” could also house the buffet and galley facilities in the same manner as the Chiltern “silver trains”.

I do agree that a 2+4 formations seem a bit short-sighted however, as even three complete carriages of standard class seating refurbished to Chiltern standard, as seems to be the intention, only gives a likely standard class seating capacity of 206 (TSO + TSO(D) + TGS). This compares to 168 standard class seats for one of Scotrail’s 3-car Turbostars.

 

[170401]

It’s not made clear whether there will be a full coach of first class seating, or whether “one carriage…reserved for a dedicated first class service” could also house the buffet and galley facilities in the same manner as the Chiltern “silver trains”.

It appears a full carriage will be taken up by 1st -

"One carriage on each train will be reserved for a dedicated First Class service, which will include a table at all seats, providing sufficient room for business travellers to work comfortably".

- taken from the linked document a few messages up.

 

[najaB]

It appears a full carriage will be taken up by 1st -

"One carriage on each train will be reserved for a dedicated First Class service, which will include a table at all seats, providing sufficient room for business travellers to work comfortably".

- taken from the linked document a few messages up.

Agreed, however it doesn't say if it will be a full carriage worth of seats, or 2/3's of seats and 1/3 taken up with a mini-buffet. Those 170's with first class have what, eight seats at either end?

 

[47802]

It appears a full carriage will be taken up by 1st -

"One carriage on each train will be reserved for a dedicated First Class service, which will include a table at all seats, providing sufficient room for business travellers to work comfortably".

- taken from the linked document a few messages up.

I personally doubt that one whole coach will be 1st class especially on a four car set, as has been said probably one 1st class coach containing buffet maybe guards accommodation as well instead of a TGS, and despite what it says I think it remains to be seen how many if any four car sets actually materialise

 

[marks87]

Nine, I think. Three rows of seats in a 2+1 configuration.

 

[najaB]

Nine, I think. Three rows of seats in a 2+1 configuration.

So the current layout of East Coast's Coach J is one seat less than a 170, and that's with a full-sized kitchen. Turn that into a mini-buffet and you could easily fit another 12 first class seats and a train manager's area.

 

[Bodiddly]

First Class loadings on the current GLQ/EDB-INV are in my personal experience, not that populated. To have a full First Class dedicated coach along with a buffet car would be a bit of a waste. The problem we have at the moment are the standard class loadings that get very congested especially in the Southern direction. A 2/3rds First Class section cordoned off to a cleverly sighted mini buffet would be sufficient. The mini buffet could cater for First Class and Standard Class seperately, a bit like the lounge car on the Caledonian Sleeper. This then leaves 3 full standard class coaches.
Also, are we more likely looking at the scenario of the 2+5 sets to be utilised on the busier diagrams and the 2+4 being used predominately on the Inverness- Aberdeens? That would make sense!

 

[Chrism20]

Once first class advances come in on the route though first class loadings will increase significantly if the lead in fares that Abellio mentioned when winning the franchise happen. First have never done first class advances on ScotRail for some reason.

Some of the Aberdeen/Inverness continue South at present so it will be interesting to see what happens with it. I personally would have went with a standard fleet which would probably make things easier if there is disruption but I guess they will know what they are doing.

 

[ER158715]

2+4 for Aberdeen to Inverness and 2+5 for everywhere else I reckon.

That's all very well but diagramming that would be a nightmare. Also, there are a number of services which are a 5 car currently so you would propose cutting the number of seats? The 0554 exINV is usually full to bursting point by Inverurie so making it a 2+4 would be a massive step backwards.

 

[Bodiddly]

If there are more coaches available to hire at a later stage, this is actually a clever franchise decision by Abellio. If passenger numbers are to grow year on year as predicted, there is the option of sticking in an extra coach or two per set. You also have to assume that Abellio have done a good deal in further leasing potential scrappage stock.
Personally, I think the HST is perfect for Inverness-Aberdeen-Central Belt, and I am looking forward to not having to endure noisy, cramped class 170's for a 3hr+ journey.

 

[Kite159]

If there are more coaches available to hire at a later stage, this is actually a clever franchise decision by Abellio. If passenger numbers are to grow year on year as predicted, there is the option of sticking in an extra coach or two per set. You also have to assume that Abellio have done a good deal in further leasing potential scrappage stock.
Personally, I think the HST is perfect for Inverness-Aberdeen-Central Belt, and I am looking forward to not having to endure noisy, cramped class 170's for a 3hr+ journey.

Instead standing on a noisy, cold vestibule area of a Mk3 coach when Abellio puts on a 2+4 instead of a 2+5.

 

[Chris125]

Instead standing on a noisy, cold vestibule area of a Mk3 coach when Abellio puts on a 2+4 instead of a 2+5.

At least HSTs should prove easier to extend.

 

[Steve childs]

These guys are experts in what they do. They hire even more experts to make decisions like taking in the HST (which will be refurbished) Its going to be good.

 

[sprinterguy]

Instead standing on a noisy, cold vestibule area of a Mk3 coach when Abellio puts on a 2+4 instead of a 2+5.

As far as I know the Scotrail sets are being fitted with power doors, so the vestibules won't be anything like as noisy or cold as they can be at present.

 

[Fishplate84]

So long as they also fit far more comfortable seats than the ones in the East Coast sets. I'd pick a 170 over an East Coast service for the journey on the basis of space and seat comfort alone any day.

 

[me123]

That's all very well but diagramming that would be a nightmare. Also, there are a number of services which are a 5 car currently so you would propose cutting the number of seats? The 0554 exINV is usually full to bursting point by Inverurie so making it a 2+4 would be a massive step backwards.

Agree completely. The Inverness - Aberdeen line serves some of the fastest growing communities in Scotland, and the trains are never quiet. I've been on the approximately 4am departure from Inverness (from Elgin-Aberdeen), and it's full and standing at Insch - quite remarkable, considering that lots of busier Scottish routes don't even have trains starting before 6am! 2+5 would actually be the best option for Aberdeen-Inverness for a large portion of the day to be honest, and indeed I'd argue that 2+5 trains probably should be the norm.

Hopefully the proposed hourly service, with half-hourly trains Aberdeen-Inverurie and Inverness-Elgin, shall help loadings whenever that service pattern starts (?2019, but I can't see a concrete date as of yet and suspect that this will be pushed back somewhat).

 

[Ken Hunter]

Talk of pushing locos and coaches onto some routes again. Edinburgh - Stirling -Dunblane is very busy at peak periods. I sometimes use this from Edinburgh Park. I get a seat on the platform as I will not get one on the train until least Falkirk.

 

[HSTEd]

We will never need loco hauled stock for capacity again - we are going to be swimming in far superior HST sets.

 

[SuffolkRaider]

Just read in the Scotsman another 9 170`s are off down sarrrf for Govia Thames link but apparently there is enough loco hauled stock to cover reading this thread I am not convinced.com would be nice to get 2or 3 out east to displace the 153 "buses"

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Just read in the Scotsman another 9 170`s are off down sarrrf for Govia Thames link but apparently there is enough loco hauled stock to cover reading this thread I am not convinced.com would be nice to get 2or 3 out east to displace the 153 "buses"

"another 9"? It's four. Just four sets.

That Scotsman guy just has a vendetta against Scotrail. If a guard farts then he's screaming 'exclusive'.

 

[Class 170101]

"another 9"? It's four. Just four sets.

That Scotsman guy just has a vendetta against Scotrail. If a guard farts then he's screaming 'exclusive'.

Actually 9 have been leased to GTR five of these are being sub-leased back to Scotrail though.

Have a read through this document unfortunately its NOT easy to copy and paste
https://www.abellio.com/sites/default/files/downloads/abellio_scotrail_qa_summary_v2_181214.pdf

 

[Class 170101]

I am unable to copy and paste the document but see link below. Suggests HSTs will be maintained at Inverness and Craigentinny.

https://www.abellio.com/sites/default/files/downloads/abellio_scotrail_qa_summary_v2_181214.pdf

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Actually 9 have been leased to GTR five of these are being sub-leased back to Scotrail though.



Have a read through this document unfortunately its NOT easy to copy and paste

https://www.abellio.com/sites/default/files/downloads/abellio_scotrail_qa_summary_v2_181214.pdf

And Scotrail have been using subleased units for years. This does not change the fact that there's a minus of only four sets.