East Midlands Hub

[RichmondCommu]

Nope.


And that's why it would be excellent - it would be a fit-for-purpose solution that would provide the service needed to make the Toton HS2 station work. In the suburbs of Derby you'd get the convenience of local stopping options where the people are (instead of requiring them to travel to a heavy rail station) and high frequency (which heavy rail could not match), and then the remaining cross-country segment of the trip from Derby to the HS2 station would be rapidly eaten up by the nice fast interurban-style LRVs.

Have you ever been to Derby? The road network does not lend itself to building a tram line running from the city centre out to Toton without spending a huge amount of money, far more than has been spent in Nottingham (where the benefits are far greater). Not only that but you are also spending a fortune on a tram system that will only realistically serve Toton. That's a lot of money to spend simply to support an other wise White Elephant at Toton. Not to mention the length of time that it would take the tram to get out to Toton, assuming like you say that it stops on route. Not only that but the population of Derby is nothing like large enough to support a tram network with the tram line missing out the largest suburb which is Oakwood.

I'm sorry but its a none starter.

 

[HSTEd]

However cheap a new light rail route would be, it would be more expensive than the heavy rail route that is already there. Even if 100 Derby passengers board/alight each HS2 train, that would only be around four trams per hour so not really enough to justify a new route.

The heavy rail route is problematic however - you will not be able to get sufficient trains to allow close connections with Toton for the reasons already stated.
A light rail route is on its own alignment and can thus run as many or as few journeys as required - and also provides a shorter journey time solution to the significant fraction of the population of derby that live on the Nottingham-facing side of Derby.

 

[RichmondCommu]

However, how what is the cost per kilometre of a tram line in open country? With no major civil engineering works of any kind necessary, and as light rail systems are allowed to have level crossings, I can't see it being anywhere near the cost of tracks along populated streets.

I concur, however the cost of building the tram route from the city centre would be enormous and as I've mentioned above the tram line would miss out the one suburb that might save it, Oakwood. Not only that but the population of Derby (and more importantly the number of people that the route would serve) suggests that you would not get a sufficient return on the capital required. You also need to bear in mind that you would have to cross the A52 at some point once you had left Derby and that wouldn't be cheap.

If it wasn't for the possibility of a HS2 station at Toton no one would be even entertaining the idea that a tram network should be built in Derby.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The heavy rail route is problematic however - you will not be able to get sufficient trains to allow close connections with Toton for the reasons already stated.
A light rail route is on its own alignment and can thus run as many or as few journeys as required - and also provides a shorter journey time solution to the significant fraction of the population of derby that live on the Nottingham-facing side of Derby.

Yes but the tram route would miss out that "significant fraction of the population of Derby". Spondon station is ideally placed for Oakwood with a few trains stopping in the Peak and yet hardly anyone uses it. I honestly don't think that would change if HS2 built a station at Toton.

 

[HSTEd]

Have you ever been to Derby? The road network does not lend itself to building a tram line running from the city centre out to Toton.

Why would you run on the road network?
You can get rather closer to the city centre than the railway station without running along the roads at all if you run along the riverbank.
You would only have to divert along roads to run through suburbs to do the other thing that trams do.

Not only that but you are also spending a fortune on a tram system that will only realistically serve Toton. That's a lot of money to spend simply to support an other wise White Elephant at Toton.

It could also serve the various suburbs/villages on the Brian Clough Way axis - since that is the logical pathway to move down. (Ockbrook/Borrowash for example - could probably divert to Spondon as well, which would relieve the need for path-killing services to Spondon railway station).
Are you saying that Toton is a white elephant? The wording of the last sentence of this part seems a little confused?
I am not making any comment on the viability of the location - merely that this is likely the most practical way to provide an attractive and useable public transport access scheme from the Derby side.

Not to mention the length of time that it would take the tram to get out to Toton, assuming like you say that it stops on route.

Well considering that is almost nowhere to stop between Ocbrook/Borrowash and the Toton facility (although you might be able to make a case for Risley or Sandiacre on a marginal cost basis) you can cover the last ~7km at full speed - say 80km/h.
That will translate to something like six minutes or less.
And since this is a new route you can put limited stop 'logical lines' onto the same alignment if you want.
You could potentially run LRVs non stop to Toton from one of the closer-in stations even if you put stations at smaller areas in between central Derby and Nottingham starting.

Not only that but the population of Derby is nothing like large enough to support a tram network with the tram line missing out the largest suburb which is Oakwood.

Well considering the population of the Derby Unitary Authority is 248,000 - it is comparable to the size of Nantes (again measuring the city itself and not its environs) - which not only has a tram system (or three) but has a full blown Metro.
Then there is the commune in France with a population of only 45,000 [Aubagne] that is building a light rail system using shrunk down Citadis trams.

If it wasn't for the possibility of a HS2 station at Toton no one would be even entertaining the idea that a tram network should be built in Derby.

Which changes everything - capital that would not be available otherwise will be available for this reason.
Derby has to be shut up or it won't stop whining about Toton being chosen - a tram shuts it up and frankly costs nothing compared to the budget of the scheme overall.

Yes but the tram route would miss out that "significant fraction of the population of Derby". Spondon station is ideally placed for Oakwood with a few trains stopping in the Peak and yet hardly anyone uses it. I honestly don't think that would change if HS2 built a station at Toton.

Handfuls of peak trains are worthless, need a clockface timetable with as high an intensity as possible or you might as well not bother.
Outside of London routes [which can generate so much money off commuter traffic they need not worry] it is not commuter traffic that builds the long term success of a system - you have to stimulate off-peak leisure travel that ingrains it into the public conciousness in a positive sense (getting a train back after a good night out, not being packed onto a crowded train to go to another day in the job you hate).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Why would you run on the road network?
You can get rather closer to the city centre than the railway station without running along the roads at all if you run along the riverbank.
You would only have to divert along roads to run through suburbs to do the other thing that trams do.

But this is the problem! By not using the road network not only do you have to spend a fortune on engineering a new route but following the river bank would lead you on a route that missed out the suburb that counts; Oakwood. If you start diverting the route to run through Oakwood and Chaddesden you are only adding time to the journey.

It could also serve the various suburbs/villages on the Brian Clough Way axis - since that is the logical pathway to move down. (Ockbrook/Borrowash for example - could probably divert to Spondon as well, which would relieve the need for path-killing services to Spondon railway station).

I think you've hit the nail on the head here; Ockbrook and Borrowash are indeed villages. So in other words you miss out the key suburbs and include two villages that are right next to the A52. Easy access to the A52 meaning that people would be unlikely to use the slower tram.

Are you saying that Toton is a white elephant? The wording of the last sentence of this part seems a little confused?
I am not making any comment on the viability of the location - merely that this is likely the most practical way to provide an attractive and useable public transport access scheme from the Derby side.

In answer to your question, yes! Toton is a white elephant at the moment because its once busy marshalling yards are redundant and in the future because I don't believe that sufficient numbers of people will use the station at Toton. Even you suggested earlier on that it won't be that important in the grand scheme of things.

Well considering that is almost nowhere to stop between Ocbrook/Borrowash and the Toton facility (although you might be able to make a case for Risley or Sandiacre on a marginal cost basis) you can cover the last ~7km at full speed - say 80km/h.
That will translate to something like six minutes or less.
And since this is a new route you can put limited stop 'logical lines' onto the same alignment if you want.
You could potentially run LRVs non stop to Toton from one of the closer-in stations even if you put stations at smaller areas in between central Derby and Nottingham starting.

For the second time you have hit the nail on the head in which case I can only admire your accuracy. The tram line will simply not serve enough of the local population to make it viable.

Well considering the population of the Derby Unitary Authority is 248,000 - it is comparable to the size of Nantes (again measuring the city itself and not its environs) - which not only has a tram system (or three) but has a full blown Metro.
Then there is the commune in France with a population of only 45,000 [Aubagne] that is building a light rail system using shrunk down Citadis trams.

Are you seriously suggesting that the entire population of Derby would be served by your proposed tram network running out to Toton? What a roundabout route that would be!

Which changes everything - capital that would not be available otherwise will be available for this reason.
Derby has to be shut up or it won't stop whining about Toton being chosen - a tram shuts it up and frankly costs nothing compared to the budget of the scheme overall.

If the Government decided that it wanted to spend money on an infrastructure project in Derby (and your proposed tram line is not key to the success of HS2) it would be much better spent on two fly overs on the A38 which runs through the northern suburbs.

In all honesty the opinions of the City Council in Derby are irrelevant in that HS2 will not be routed through the city whether they like it or not. Even if they are not on side the route will still be built following the current plans so they will continue to be ignored.

Handfuls of peak trains are worthless, need a clockface timetable with as high an intensity as possible or you might as well not bother.
Outside of London routes [which can generate so much money off commuter traffic they need not worry] it is not commuter traffic that builds the long term success of a system - you have to stimulate off-peak leisure travel that ingrains it into the public conciousness in a positive sense (getting a train back after a good night out, not being packed onto a crowded train to go to another day in the job you hate).

Whilst I concur with what you've said that only works in large metropolitan areas. Derby is not a large metropolitan area. And hey, not everyone hates their job!

 

[bangor-toad]

If the Government decided that it wanted to spend money on an infrastructure project in Derby (and your proposed tram line is not key to the success of HS2) it would be much better spent on two fly overs on the A38 which runs through the northern suburbs.

Actually this was announced yesterday. There's a consultation out for replacing the three roundabouts that snarl up the A38 with a flyover and a couple of underpasses. If it all happens it should make quite a difference.


Back to the issue of a potential tram from HS2 to Derby;
I have to agree with RichmondCommu here. There's almost no way I could see a business case being made to run a new tram from Derby to Toton. There just isn't the population density to the east side of Derby to support it.

If the tram runs direct it would only pass through a few villages which seem to do perfectly well with buses and good access to the A52. If you run a tram all around the Derby suburbs (on road, down a riverbank or through a park - it doesn't matter) it'll take so long that people would take the more direct bus or drive.


I'll offer my own, perhaps controversial viewpoint, on HS2 Toton. It's never been considered as a destination railhead for either Nottingham or Derby. Instead it's been conceived as a starting point that people will drive to and travel away from.
It can hoover up people starting in the villages between Derby and Nottingham who would otherwise need to drive into either city to get the train and save them a lot of time. It will also be able to provide reasonable tram or bus access from the western Nottingham suburbs - with broadly comparable times to getting the tram or bus into Nottingham city centre.
As for incoming travellers, if you need either city centre HS2 Toton is not going to be best but if you needed to go anywhere more than a couple of miles from Nottingham station in a taxi then it'll make little difference in the time and cost of that bit of the journey.

Additional rail servicing Toton is likely though as the existing lines are upgraded & altered to support the HS2 station. Bu these are going to incremental improvements rather than wholesale new builds.
Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[CdBrux]

Would an HS2 station at Toton, with improved local infrastructure linking it to Derby & Nottingham city centres and the M1, also allow for the possibility to develop the surrounding area (rail land not needed for HS2 / local services in the first instance) into accomodation & maybe offices, a very scaled down OOC? If it's rail land that would suddenly increase in value this could provide a funding source.

 

[edwin_m]

Would an HS2 station at Toton, with improved local infrastructure linking it to Derby & Nottingham city centres and the M1, also allow for the possibility to develop the surrounding area (rail land not needed for HS2 / local services in the first instance) into accomodation & maybe offices, a very scaled down OOC? If it's rail land that would suddenly increase in value this could provide a funding source.

There's certainly talking about that, though I think mostly low-density housing, which isn't really what is needed round a major hub.

 

[brianthegiant]

But this is the problem! By not using the road network not only do you have to spend a fortune on engineering a new route

really???
building trams on roads is more expensive because you have to move all the UG services to the pavement away from the tracks otherwise utilities will have a nightmare teeing off new services in future. You then have to dig a ~3foot deep trench down the middle of the road to the width of the tracks +~20% to get a solid base for your slab track (with additional concrete piles every metre or so in both directions for soft ground) . Laying ballast in a field is a lot cheaper.
Bridges will need building / re-engineering wherever you go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would an HS2 station at Toton, with improved local infrastructure linking it to Derby & Nottingham city centres and the M1, also allow for the possibility to develop the surrounding area (rail land not needed for HS2 / local services in the first instance) into accomodation & maybe offices, a very scaled down OOC? If it's rail land that would suddenly increase in value this could provide a funding source.

Yes thats why the Borough Councils are so keen on Toton.

 

[RichmondCommu]

really???
building trams on roads is more expensive because you have to move all the UG services to the pavement away from the tracks otherwise utilities will have a nightmare teeing off new services in future. You then have to dig a ~3foot deep trench down the middle of the road to the width of the tracks +~20% to get a solid base for your slab track (with additional concrete piles every metre or so in both directions for soft ground) . Laying ballast in a field is a lot cheaper.
Bridges will need building / re-engineering wherever you go.

That's a fair point but in the case of Derby the cost of crossing the inner ring road and its complex junctions would be huge. That's a lot of money just to support the HS2 station at Toton.

 

[ivanhoe]

Nottingham currently wants London in 90 minutes on the MML. With electrification and continued improvements along the line, then that will happen. What would be the timing on HS2 allowing travel time from Toton to Notts? Is it much less than 90 minutes?

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham currently wants London in 90 minutes on the MML. With electrification and continued improvements along the line, then that will happen. What would be the timing on HS2 allowing travel time from Toton to Notts? Is it much less than 90 minutes?

I've seen 53min quoted for London to Toton. The factsheet gives 68min London to Nottingham, so must allow about 5min for connection and 10min for journey. This looks optimistic to me as the connecting train will have to negotiate at least two slow junctions. The same factsheet quotes 104min for the current London-Nottingham time, but Nottingham trains have been accelerated by about 4min since then.

Derby is quoted as 71min vs 91min.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e_Two_East_Midlands_Hub_station_factsheet.pdf

 

[quantinghome]

Nottingham currently wants London in 90 minutes on the MML. With electrification and continued improvements along the line, then that will happen. What would be the timing on HS2 allowing travel time from Toton to Notts? Is it much less than 90 minutes?

Google is your friend: http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/inserts/e_midlands_rfs.pdf

68 minutes to Nottingham Station. For the western side of Nottingham it would be quicker to go straight to Toton, so there are more substantial journey savings.

For me, the standout timing on the factsheet is Toton to Leeds in 29 minutes - compared to nearly 2 hours at the moment. HS2 is not just about getting to London.

 

[edwin_m]

For me, the standout timing on the factsheet is Toton to Leeds in 29 minutes - compared to nearly 2 hours at the moment. HS2 is not just about getting to London.

Indeed - definitely worth going to Toton for that, even on the tram!

 

[po8crg]

Newcastle (106) and York (36) are other big gains, though it is worth pointing out that there are fast services to both of those from Newark North Gate, which is a short drive from exactly those parts of Nottingham that find Toton/Breaston difficult to get to. There aren't many direct NNG-LDS trains (nothing between 0714 and 1922), though they do actually cover the distance pretty quickly (58 minutes for the fastest). ECML trains will stop more post-HS2, so the NNG-LDS service would probably be more frequent.

 

[MancMetro]

Toton has been confirmed as the preferred location:

http://www.nottinghampost.com/HS2-Toton-best-option-East-Midlands-hub/story-26899957-detail/story.html

Council and business leaders have welcomed the decision to support Toton as the location for the HS2 East Midlands hub.

Following a meeting of the East Midlands HS2 Strategic Board in Nottingham on Tuesday, a spokesman for HS2 confirmed Sir David Higgins, chairman of HS2, had told leaders at the meeting Toton was the best option for the hub.

Katherine Button, HS2 Ltd spokeswoman said: "After assessing an alternative site for the East Midlands hub station our chairman has confirmed today that Toton remains the recommended location.

"The final decision is now for ministers. The Government has said that they will set out how they plan to take forward the second phase of HS2 later this year."

Previously, planners had considered a proposal to use Breaston, just over the Derbyshire border, as the hub.

The decision now rests in the hands of Secretary of State for Transport, the Rt. Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP, who is expected to make a definitive statement on Phase 2 of HS2 in September 2015.

Councillor Jon Collins, leader of Nottingham City Council, welcomed the news. He said: "We are delighted that HS2's assessments is consistent with our own conclusions and reflects the clear regional consensus that we secured earlier this year.

"This should remove any barrier to the Government making a clear decision in September.

"We now need to work with HS2 Ltd to co-develop a station proposition that works for both local people and the wider East Midlands."

Anna Soubry, MP for Broxtowe, added: "The announcement is fantastic news for not only Toton, but for the entire constituency. HS2 will bring commercial development, jobs and growth to the area."

Richard Jackson, leader of Broxtowe Borough Council, said the decision was excellent news for the area.

"We felt this was coming, but it has some certainty now. The secretary of state still needs to formalise it, but I have every confidence that the hub will be in Toton.

"After that, we need to work with them to confirm the route, as there are still parts of the route through Broxtowe we are not happy with, such as it going through Nuthall and Strelley."

The news was also welcomed by business leaders. Peter Richardson, chair of D2N2, said: "An HS2 hub station at Toton represents a huge economic opportunity for the D2N2 area.

"We now need to make sure we have plans and proposals in place that can maximize job creation locally and across the wider surrounding area, as well as implementation structures that can deliver effectively on the ground."

Ian Morgan, from East Midlands chamber of commerce, added: "Uncertainty is the enemy of confidence – so Sir David's comments are very welcome indeed. There are large numbers of local businesses that could benefit through making use of the improved connectivity that a new hub station will bring and also by winning contracts to design and build HS2 and the associated rolling stock".

The line has faced stiff competition in Breaston, where residents were angry as the route would cut through swathes of Derbyshire countryside.

Maggie Throup, MP for Erewash, said: "This will be a huge relief for Breaston residents and good news that the greenbelt has been saved."

The HS2 high-speed rail line is set to connect London to Birmingham by 2026.

The second phase – due to open in 2033 – will extend the line from the West Midlands to Manchester and Leeds, with the Leeds line running through the East Midlands.