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Northern and TPE Consultation Document

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Haydn1971

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Having thought about this I'd say there are very few routes outside the Northern franchise where they would be suitable. Probably not enough for anyone else to take them on without getting into micro-fleets.


Cornwall & Devon - St Ives, Exmouth and Looe shuttles
Welsh Valleys - Dozens of options
Scotland - South Fife & Livingston into Edinburgh, Inverness-Plockton, Fort William-Malaig etc

Also, with some additional station halts there's potential for light rail options for cities without tram networks - Bristol, Derby, Cardiff and Norwich all have potential using existing heavy rail lines

That's not counting options for Northern
 
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Wolfie

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If DfT want this to go ahead they should look at all the franchises and find suitable routes for converted D78s around the country. Not force Northern franchise bidders to replace Pacers and not allow them to order new DMUs or take on trains currently with other operators.

DfT will come up with an excuse that the TOCs chose the rolling stock and it's a commercial arrangement when we all know that isn't the case.

DfT can only do that for those franchises under it's control... so for a start forget Scotland and Wales completely..... realistically that leaves Northern and Cornwall/Devon.
 

edwin_m

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Cornwall & Devon - St Ives, Exmouth and Looe shuttles

Those three would be a microfleet, but it might just be viable if you added in all the other branches in the south-west.

Welsh Valleys - Dozens of options

All of which are planned to be electrified.

Scotland - South Fife & Livingston into Edinburgh, Inverness-Plockton, Fort William-Malaig etc

Fife has a significant length of fast running between Edinburgh and the Forth Bridge. Livingston doesn't have any terminators as far as I know, and is also committed for electrification. And the other two would be microfleets.

Also, with some additional station halts there's potential for light rail options for cities without tram networks - Bristol, Derby, Cardiff and Norwich all have potential using existing heavy rail lines

I was really thinking of replacements on existing services rather than creating new ones, as the priority is likely to be getting rid of Pacers and I can't see there being lots of funding for rural light rail even if the trains are cheap-ish.
 
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northwichcat

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DfT can only do that for those franchises under it's control... so for a start forget Scotland and Wales completely..... realistically that leaves Northern and Cornwall/Devon.

And London Midland and EMT.

LM have plenty of 100mph Turbostars so could easily utilise a fleet of converted D78s alongside the Turbostars without having to worry about using converted D78s on mainlines where faster running is required. Their micro fleets of 150s and 153s could then be transferred to other operators.

EMT have some of the most rural lines in the country and it's expected the Barton line will transfer to EMT when the next Northern franchise is let to give EMT another suitable route and Northern one less suitable route.
 

Bletchleyite

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And London Midland and EMT.

LM have plenty of 100mph Turbostars so could easily utilise a fleet of converted D78s alongside the Turbostars without having to worry about using converted D78s on mainlines where faster running is required. Their micro fleets of 150s and 153s could then be transferred to other operators.

If using D78s would mean we could have 3 units based at Bletchley rather than 2, thus massively improving the reliability of Bedford-Bletchley, where the 153 giving up causes cancellations all the time while the spare is brought down from Tyseley, they would be very welcome on it.

Ideally a spare 15x would be based at Bletchley but there aren't enough of them.

Neil
 

northwichcat

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Having thought about this I'd say there are very few routes outside the Northern franchise where they would be suitable. Probably not enough for anyone else to take them on without getting into micro-fleets.

You'd need to have micro-fleets at different depots if Northern had them. It's not like a unit based at Allerton can be used on Middlesbrough-Saltburn or one based at Heaton can be used on Ormskirk-Preston.
 

Philip

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Can't a new batch of 172s be built for Northern and ATW to replace 142s and 150s and have done with it? Don't forget the original plan for use of 172s included Northern.
 

northwichcat

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Can't a new batch of 172s be built for Northern and ATW to replace 142s and 150s and have done with it? Don't forget the original plan for use of 172s included Northern.

172s not longer meet the latest standards so it would need to be an updated design.

Not technically true about 172s being planned on Northern routes. There was an ITT issued for 202 diesel carriages - 10 x 4 car for TPE, 8 x 4 car for FGW and 130 carriages for Northern in mixed formations. There were rumours from the FGW area that Cardiff-Portsmouth would get new 4 car 172s but the ITT was never awarded so while Bombardier might have been most likely to win we can't say it would have been 172s. The ITT was withdrawn when the previous government announced North West and Thames Valley electrification, with the intention being units released from Thameslink could plug most of the void instead.
 

edwin_m

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And London Midland and EMT.

LM have plenty of 100mph Turbostars so could easily utilise a fleet of converted D78s alongside the Turbostars without having to worry about using converted D78s on mainlines where faster running is required. Their micro fleets of 150s and 153s could then be transferred to other operators.

EMT have some of the most rural lines in the country and it's expected the Barton line will transfer to EMT when the next Northern franchise is let to give EMT another suitable route and Northern one less suitable route.

I think I posted a while back that a real googly would be for D78s to replace the 172s on some of the Snow Hill routes, where the stations are close together so the 60mph maximum wouldn't matter too much. But I can't see it going down well with the locals to have a modern fleet replaced by a much older one! Whereas on Northern the D78s, though older, would be an improvement on Pacers.

In general I agree the 60mph top speed is a significant handicap to the usefulness of D78s. The main place they have some chance of getting a critical mass of suitable routes seems to me to be within the Northern francise. Many of the unelectrified Piccadilly suburban routes don't get up to great speeds and have fairly short journeys. Similarly the group of stoppers linking Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield and Castleford, and the Harrogate line is another possibility.

EMT is more difficult. Most of their diagrams include significant lengths of 75mph running with a 60mph unit probably only acceptable on the Robin Hood line and Matlock-Newark (as it will be from this May).
 
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northwichcat

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Many of the unelectrified Piccadilly suburban routes don't get up to great speeds and have fairly short journeys.

Really?

Piccadilly-Stockport allows 75+mph running and faster trains may help with pathing constraints while slower ones will create more. For services to Chester there's further 75mph running beyond Stockport with no stations between Stockport and Navigation Road. I doubt converted D78s would be cleared for the tunnels on the Buxton line due to their width and it's been proposed post Ordsall Chord that they'll be a half-hourly stopping service between Liverpool and Buxton via Warrington, so that in turn rules out the Manchester-Liverpool stoppers.

There's only really Piccadilly-Rose Hill Marple where D78s would be suitable by the time New Mills Central services are interworked with Sheffield services, so a micro-fleet of trains for 1 line of Piccadilly?

I think I posted a while back that a real googly would be for D78s to replace the 172s on some of the Snow Hill routes, where the stations are close together so the 60mph maximum wouldn't matter too much.

Agreed. As a sweetener it could be proposed Snow Hill Line services retain some of the 172s alongside D78s, with longer formations on most services. Then the other 172s could be internally cascaded to release 170s.

Note that Blackpool North-Manchester Airport is seeing trains built in 2006 replaced with trains built in 1987 and Windermere, Barrow and Scarborough are likely to get similar treatment, so old-for-new shouldn't be seen as something that can't happen in the Midlands as well.
 
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Philip

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172s not longer meet the latest standards so it would need to be an updated design.

Not technically true about 172s being planned on Northern routes. There was an ITT issued for 202 diesel carriages - 10 x 4 car for TPE, 8 x 4 car for FGW and 130 carriages for Northern in mixed formations. There were rumours from the FGW area that Cardiff-Portsmouth would get new 4 car 172s but the ITT was never awarded so while Bombardier might have been most likely to win we can't say it would have been 172s. The ITT was withdrawn when the previous government announced North West and Thames Valley electrification, with the intention being units released from Thameslink could plug most of the void instead.

Why do the 172s not meet current standards? They are fine on the Snow Hill lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And also as for the possibility of D78 stock on Northern routes, if you take the Bolton route for example isn't this being upgraded to 100mph running as part of the electrification scheme? Can't see the slower tube trains integrating well on a busy high speed line.
 

Greybeard33

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Why do the 172s not meet current standards? They are fine on the Snow Hill lines.
The engines in the Class 172 are non-compliant with the current Stage IIIB emissions control requirements. That means no new engines may be manufactured, although those already in service are exempt.

Expert opinion on this forum is that extensive and costly redesign would be needed to fit a compliant engine to any of the Class 16x/17x/18x units, so it would become a new class. Any new DMU order would have to be put out to competitive tender.
 

Haydn1971

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Expert opinion on this forum is that extensive and costly redesign would be needed to fit a compliant engine to any of the Class 16x/17x/18x units, so it would become a new class.


An unconvincing and pessimistic expert opinion in my view on fitting a compliant engine in a new DMU - it's more a chicken and egg situation that without an order, no one will take up the challenge.

As an aside, do we know if the 172 is still compliant with current collision standards ?
 

edwin_m

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An unconvincing and pessimistic expert opinion in my view on fitting a compliant engine in a new DMU - it's more a chicken and egg situation that without an order, no one will take up the challenge.

There was an RSSB report to this effect, which unfortunately I can't link to since they were all put behind a login. If anyone has SPARK access then "the future of the diesel engine" should find it for you.
 

Haydn1971

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That would be interesting to see, these types of reports are rarely so black and white as is being suggested.
 

WatcherZero

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Northern gave a presentation to Merseytravel mid January which said the the ITT in February. Despite ITT being three months late winner still expected to be announced in October.

These are the 100 stations to get CIS

Accrington
Corbridge
Hough Green
Ramsgreave & Wilpshire
Adlington (Lancashire)
Cramlington
Howden
Redcar Central
Alderley Edge
Cuddington
Hyde Central
Redcar East
Allens West
North Road
Kirkham & Wesham
Rishton
Appleby
Darton
Kiveton Bridge
Sandbach
Appley Bridge
Deighton
Knaresborough
Sankey For Penketh
Ashburys
Dinting
Knutsford
Seaham
Askham
Disley
Lockwood
Sellafield
Bamber Bridge
Dore
Lytham
Settle
Bentley (S. Yorks)
Dronfield
Marske
Shildon
Berry Brow
Eccles
Meols Cop
South Milford
Billingham
Eccleston Park
Mill Hill (Lancashire)
St Annes on Sea
Blackpool Pleasure Beach
Filey
Millom
Starbeck
Blackpool South
Flixton
Morecambe
Stocksfield
Bolton - on - Dearne
Garswood
Moston
Stocksmoor
Bredbury
Gathurst
Navigation Rd
Stockton
Brockholes
Godley
Nelson
Thatto Heath
Burnley Central
Gorton
Newton Aycliffe
Thorne South
Burscough Bridge
Greenbank
Northwich
Weeton
Chinley
Grindleford
Padgate
Whaley Bridge
Church Fenton
Halewood
Pannal
Whalley
Clitheroe
Haltwhistle
Parbold
Whiston
Colne
Heighington
Poulton - le - Fylde
Woodsmoor
Conisbrough
Holmes Chapel
Poynton
Workington
Cononley
Hornbeam Park
Prudhoe
Wylam

300k investment in TVM's means 9 additional and 38 upgraded to take smartcards (Not too sure on this, may be in Merseyside and Cheshire area only since direct award said 134 TVM's and 564 upgraded on board Ticket machines but less than £900 per machine nevermind handhelds sounds too low as I believe they cost around £30k each so they may have been referring to total TVM's in the direct award press release).

Rainhill, Todmorden, Earlestown, Wigan, 1 tbc will receive station LED lighting at £15-20k per site while James Cook & Prescot will receive additional lighting.

Solar powered CIS on trial at Maryport, Wi-Fi on trial at Bolton. Broad Green & Lea Green will have electric vehicle charging points installed.

Expecting 600k-1m people to attend Cunard 175th Birthday celebration events in Liverpool with extra capacity being laid on by Northern, TPE and EMT.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Rainhill, Todmorden, Earlestown, Wigan, 1 tbc will receive station LED lighting at £15-20k per site while James Cook & Prescot will receive additional lighting.

I am surprised to hear James Cook being mentioned, this being a recently opened station. I wonder why the plans for the new station did not include sufficient thought into the actual lighting requirements.
 

northwichcat

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According to Tony Miles on wnxx a certain someone called Adrian is claiming all the bidders for the next Northern franchise are interested in using converted D78s in the North East and Cumbria and he has inquires with regards to their use by other franchises.
 

driver9000

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You'd need to have micro-fleets at different depots if Northern had them. It's not like a unit based at Allerton can be used on Middlesbrough-Saltburn or one based at Heaton can be used on Ormskirk-Preston.

Why not? Certainly never stopped them in the past and the Ormskirk service is worked by a 153 based at Neville Hill. Units do have a tendency to go walkies into other regions.
 

northwichcat

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Adrian Shooter, the person who set up vivarail?

Yes. Tony Miles was describing an overhead conversation so possibly wanted to leave it vague enough that if questioned he could say it was someone else of the same first name who he heard it off.

Why not? Certainly never stopped them in the past and the Ormskirk service is worked by a 153 based at Neville Hill. Units do have a tendency to go walkies into other regions.

Hasn't been since Northern got the LM 150s and 142s back from FGW.

Northern do operate services between Yorkshire and Blackpool/Morecambe so getting 153s back and forth shouldn't have been an issue. What I said is "It's not like a unit based at Allerton can be used on Middlesbrough-Saltburn or one based at Heaton can be used on Ormskirk-Preston." So I'm sure how exactly your reply is relevant.
 

swt_passenger

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I am surprised to hear James Cook being mentioned, this being a recently opened station. I wonder why the plans for the new station did not include sufficient thought into the actual lighting requirements.

It could be the age old problem of newly altered standards causing variations to the agreed design being costed at a deterrent price by the builder, because he doesn't want the work - especially with a tight deadline.

So it becomes cheaper to do a modification once the builder has gone, and you can get your term maintenance contractor to do the work instead, and at the normal sort of cost.
 

driver9000

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Yes. Tony Miles was describing an overhead conversation so possibly wanted to leave it vague enough that if questioned he could say it was someone else of the same first name who he heard it off.



Hasn't been since Northern got the LM 150s and 142s back from FGW.

Northern do operate services between Yorkshire and Blackpool/Morecambe so getting 153s back and forth shouldn't have been an issue. What I said is "It's not like a unit based at Allerton can be used on Middlesbrough-Saltburn or one based at Heaton can be used on Ormskirk-Preston." So I'm sure how exactly your reply is relevant.

The Ormskirk service is back to a NL 153 now. My reply was based on the way your post read that there was some sort of restriction on AN and HT sets being unable to work away from their respective areas which isn't the case. There is no reason why a Heaton 156 can't work West diagrams as they do similarly with Allerton 156s appearing on East diagrams. That is how I read it.
 

northwichcat

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Conservative Councillor Mike Jones (Leader of Cheshire East council) is reportedly going to be a director of Rail North Limited who will be in charge of a Cheshire & Potteries area. Mike Jones resides in a village near Nantwich and is known to come up with over the top schemes for the Crewe area such as a Crewe tram system and seems to ignore the existence of other places in the Cheshire East area.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It could be the age old problem of newly altered standards causing variations to the agreed design being costed at a deterrent price by the builder, because he doesn't want the work - especially with a tight deadline.

James Cook station only opened seven months ago, which begs the question of why, knowing that newly altered standards were about to be introduced, was not a pre-construction discussion held to discuss that very same matter.
 

WatcherZero

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Potentially as simple as after opening they realised there were blind spots in the lighting design or they then had the cash to expand beyond that specified and budgeted for in the design.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Found a working (not final) copy of the electrification task force report it is in two parts and dated 5th and 10th December but was published 24th January and I believe it to be final or near final form agreed that week at the final meeting of the task force to be submitted to the Secretary of State. The report version 5.0 final and 5.2 'revised to reflect task force increased emphasis on economic benefits'.

Firstly couple of changes in remit since the start, originally to meet 'monthly or more frequently' changed to 'every 2-3 months'. Original membership 'The Steering Group will consist of senior officials from DfT, Rail North and Network Rail.' became 'The Task Force will consist of a three MPs from the North of England (nominated through the existing All-Party Parliamentary Rail in the North Group), two local authority Leaders nominated by the Rail North consortium, and senior officials from Network Rail and DfT. The Task Force will elect its own chair/co-chair, or may choose an independent person to chair.' Two other objectives were added;
*Considering the interdependence of service planning and the impact of making changes
* Defining an overarching objective for choosing or prioritising electrification projects – e.g. is it cost/environmental issues/supporting or stimulating economic growth/reducing journey speeds?

Part 1 (14 pages) baseline criteria
Part 2 (12 pages) prioritisation criteria

To summarise prioritisation conclusion is to reject standard cost benefit ratio criteria as not capturing wider social and economic benefits and prejudging the do-minimum requirement by focusing purely on cost and financial return, disregarding cost allows consideration of the opportunity to improve not just the benefit. Second criterion will be that used in the NR electrification refresh which is diesel km replaced however it will be supplemented with another criteria which is rolling stock replaced to align it with the political and economic aims of One North. More effort should be devoted to electrification resources if this process is to lead to a tangible increase in electrification and public perception of electrification (i.e. for political gain routes with higher public perception should be prioritised) it should be an ongoing process through CP6 recognising synergy between schemes and the efficient use of resources, industry capacity to deliver and availability of appropriate rolling stock.

They say there is currently the industry capacity to electrify 50-60 double track km per year but there is 2000-2500km needing electrification which would take 40 years unless resources are increased. It wants the rate of electrification to be stepped up through CP6 and CP7 to coincide with rolling stock replacement dates with a lot requiring replacement within 10 years time.
Currently available electric rolling stock is 4 car and replacing 2xDMU formations offers little to no increase in capacity and may be overprovision in offpeak, they also offer very poor acceleration (emphasised) as they are used to operating in outer suburban flat country and wont be able to cope with Northern line gradients.

Suggested evaluation criteria:

Economic impact, decongestion, commuter improvement to be summed and normalised through the proxy of Route kms electrified with a score of 0-8
0-2 will be awarded for imput to economic improvement aspirations.
Total economic 10 points

Impact on costs, services and environment through diesel vehicle km divided by electrification track kms and grouped by percentiles 0-10 points

Rolling stock enhancement and replacement; diesel vehicles replaced, overcrowding by end of CP6 and age/quality of rolling stock, 0-10 points

Weighting to generate a score out of 100 for scheme comparison
Economic 5.0
Impact on Services 2.0
Rolling stock enhancement and replacement 3.0


First part of the report deals with geographic scope, lists all projects in progress at (various development stages) and three projects outside the NR RUS process and reports remit; Temple Hirst Junction – Selby - Hull (funding for business case, political backing, no commitment), Leeds – Harrogate – York (business case developed by local business, no commitment), Manchester – Bradford – Leeds & Hall Royd Junction – West Coast Mainline (Preston-Leeds with Rochdale line to Manchester as a spur, outline business cases and inclusion in Leeds local plan).

Finally groups the remaining unelectrified lines into service groups though emphasises the service groups wouldn't be evaluated as distinct or complete entitities.



So ultimately they've agreed an evaluation and prioritisation formula but any specific scheme development would come from the NR Electrification refresh.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Finally groups the remaining unelectrified lines into service groups though emphasises the service groups wouldn't be evaluated as distinct or complete entitities.

So they've basically passed up the action to prioritise the 8 named schemes they were appointed to do?
Sounds like we will be waiting a long time for clarity about extensions...

A roll-out rate of 50-60 route km per annum is the current NW electrification project rate.
That suggests they are not planning to mobilise a second team for TP or elsewhere in the north.
How disappointing is that?
 

ianhr

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A roll-out rate of 50-60 route km per annum is the current NW electrification project rate.
That suggests they are not planning to mobilise a second team for TP or elsewhere in the north.
How disappointing is that?

That would explain why TP electrification (Stalybridge-Leeds-Colton Jct) is now going to be 3 years late and not completed until at least 2021. They were supposed to have started from the York end 18 months ago and this is obviously not now going to happen. It looks as though no work will be done on the Trans-Pennine route until Blackpool is finished in 2017 and at this rate it will be at least 10 years before electrification reaches Hull!

Are we going to hear an explanation from NR as to why there will not be an electrification base east of the Pennines?
 
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