Why not cash refunds for delay repay

[RJ]

You don't get change from RTVs. But if you're paying part RTV, part cash then as tickets are priced in 5p increments they might not have any smaller coins for change.

Correct. Change is never supposed to be given on the RTV itself. The full value of the RTV is supposed to be entered as payment. If it is greater than the cost of the ticket(s), there is a Travel Voucher surplus debit sundry that should be used to balance the till.

 

[muz379]

I don't give a hoot about four pence, and the resulting loss of utility it causes me. But I'm sure you'd wonder why railway staff are happy to engage in such things with clear conscience every time! It makes me worry about what else might happen, when the sum involved is less insignificant, or the consequences greater.

It has been pointed out to me that I have misunderstood the point you where trying to make I apologize for this misunderstanding .

 

[najaB]

RTVs are rounded to the nearest penny round my way, if there aren't any spare coppers lying around the change will be rounded to the nearest 5p, in the customer's favour.

I'm confused, I thought there wasn't any change given from RTVs?Never mind, asked and answered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, but if you hand over a voucher for say 5.01 and a fiver for a ticket costing a tenner, you are then due change from the fiver.

Neil

 

[trevmonk]

Moneysavingexpert have a ruse for converting vouchers to cash using Oyster. Details here; http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/train-delays

Of course you first have to find a TFL ticket office who will accept the vouchers, even though it should be straightforward.

 

[DelayRepay]

I'm not especially bothered about cash - I'm happy with a discount on future journeys. I do wish the system could be made a bit easier though:

1) It is annoying that at terminal stations, the barrier normally eats your ticket which you need for a claim. So if you've been delayed by >30 minutes you then have to suffer a further delay waiting in the queue for the manual gate in order to keep hold of your ticket.
2) It is annoying that you are sent paper through the post and have to keep it safe until you want to use it. This must also add unnecessary administration costs (printing all the vouchers and letters and posting them out).
3) Most of my delays only result in about £4 of vouchers, but as I use Thameslink I have a large collection. I get the impression ticket office staff find it annoying when I want to pay for tickets using multiple vouchers.
4) As others have said, I prefer to buy my tickets online (much easier) but it is not feasible to use vouchers online.
5) Not giving change can be a pain because if I occasionally get a large voucher, I might not have an opportunity to use it for a while.

I am sure that if passengers had the option to claim e-vouchers instead of paper vouchers, many would use this and there would be quite a significant cost saving for the railway in terms accounting and administration. Most (all?) TOCs let you submit your claim online, so letting you spend the compensation online is the next logical step.

I think East Coast accepted RTVs at their buffet counters at one stage - did I imagine this?

Finally I think it's a shame that you cannot buy RTVs to use as gift vouchers. I think there would be a reasonable market for Railway Gift Vouchers which might introduce new passengers to the railway.

 

[najaB]

I am sure that if passengers had the option to claim e-vouchers instead of paper vouchers, many would use this and there would be quite a significant cost saving for the railway in terms accounting and administration.

I suspect the fact that people would be more likely to claims hasn't escaped the attention of the TOCs.

I think East Coast accepted RTVs at their buffet counters at one stage - did I imagine this?

No, you did not.

Finally I think it's a shame that you cannot buy RTVs to use as gift vouchers. I think there would be a reasonable market for Railway Gift Vouchers which might introduce new passengers to the railway.

Seconded.

 

[yorkie]

Moneysavingexpert have a ruse for converting vouchers to cash using Oyster. Details here; http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/train-delays

TfL don't appear to be happy with this 'loophole'.

I wonder what happened in this case... Oyster Refund Problems

(I've sent a PM to the OP asking if there is an update)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Finally I think it's a shame that you cannot buy RTVs to use as gift vouchers. I think there would be a reasonable market for Railway Gift Vouchers which might introduce new passengers to the railway.

Yes, I'd agree. I have been given RTVs as a present before (yes, I know, officially not allowed) but being able to buy them for that purpose would seem a good idea. Airlines offer gift vouchers, why not the railway?

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

They aren't meant to give change on them, but I have heard of staff giving change on them and keeping the voucher until someone buys a ticket larger than its value, and offsetting it against that instead so their till still balances.

Neil

Seems rather risky! If there's no suitable purchase before the end of the accounting period (day?) then they'll have to buy it themselves

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems rather risky! If there's no suitable purchase before the end of the accounting period (day?) then they'll have to buy it themselves

Then either use it themselves or put it in the next shift. So possibly a risk of having to front its face value for one shift, but not that much of a risk overall.

That said, definitely against procedure, and they would get in trouble if caught.

Are rail ticket office staff allowed their own money on them while working? I believe it's common in shops and supermarkets for staff to be banned from carrying cash when on shift (it has to go in their locker) and if they are checked and cash is found on them it is assumed it has been stolen from the till unless it can be proven otherwise (so if the till is short by mistake when cashed up and they have cash on them, it will be assumed they've nicked it).

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

I'm not sure, but I know that many TOCs prevent their own booking office staff and/or guards from selling themselves tickets. I can imagine that their selling themselves RTVs from the till is rather more unacceptable.

 

[Starmill]

My apologies for being slightly inconsiderate, and also for creating something of a misunderstanding.

My dispute was that some staff locally appeared to have been trained to count the vouchers last, rather than first, to the effect that no change was being given at all on any transaction that involved a voucher. Having established that this wasn't right, I posted about it on here and contacted Customer Relations. They did nothing to really resolve the dispute because they didn't admit that any mistake was made, insisting, as people have correctly done in this thread, that there is no change from RTVs*.

They sent me a free travel voucher 'as a gesture of goodwill' that I neither want nor need, but neither did I want or need my 7p anyway. So I'm neither up nor down, but there are no doubt still people getting it wrong that I can't do anything about, this is what annoys me and occasionally results in these misunderstandings.

* If you do think RTVs are a sensible and appropriate way to issue refunds / compensation, not giving change is the only way to deal with them. Although what I do think is neither sensible nor appropriate is for some TOCs to issue them without rounding up to the nearest five pence!

 

[Flamingo]

My apologies for being slightly inconsiderate, and also for creating something of a misunderstanding.

My dispute was that some staff locally appeared to have been trained to count the vouchers last, rather than first, to the effect that no change was being given at all on any transaction that involved a voucher. Having established that this wasn't right, I posted about it on here and contacted Customer Relations. They did nothing to really resolve the dispute because they didn't admit that any mistake was made, insisting, as people have correctly done in this thread, that there is no change from RTVs*.

They sent me a free travel voucher 'as a gesture of goodwill' that I neither want nor need, but neither did I want or need my 7p anyway. So I'm neither up nor down, but there are no doubt still people getting it wrong that I can't do anything about, this is what annoys me and occasionally results in these misunderstandings.

* If you do think RTVs are a sensible and appropriate way to issue refunds / compensation, not giving change is the only way to deal with them. Although what I do think is neither sensible nor appropriate is for some TOCs to issue them without rounding up to the nearest five pence!

They should be put in first, you are right.

 

[najaB]

They should be put in first, you are right.

That's been my experience when I've used them with Scotrail - I can't see how someone could think it makes sense the other way round. The way to avoid it is, I guess, to give them the voucher first and then ask 'how much more is it'?

 

[maniacmartin]

My experience is that a minority of staff will key the cash in first if it avoids them having to give a load of change from a large bank note.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My experience is that a minority of staff will key the cash in first if it avoids them having to give a load of change from a large bank note.

And therefore retain the change (for the railway, obviously, not themselves)? A business is of course legally entitled to do that but it is rather unfriendly.

I would be rather annoyed (and would certainly complain) were that done to me where the ticket was of a higher value than the RTV. Though it'd be unlikely to be, as unless the machine is broken I always pay by card for train tickets, and I would only use an RTV for a ticket of a higher value than the RTV anyway, unless it was just 10p here and there.

Neil

 

[CyrusWuff]

Regardless of the Ticket Issuing System being used, if the Clerk enters more cash than the balance due after deducting vouchers, they should be prompted to give change just as if it was all cash.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Interesting, thanks. Is this even the case on Avantices?

 

[Starmill]

Regardless of the Ticket Issuing System being used, if the Clerk enters more cash than the balance due after deducting vouchers, they should be prompted to give change just as if it was all cash.

Well that's very good at least, as it should mean that as far as ticket offices go this mistake is exceptionally rare.

 

[island]

My apologies for being slightly inconsiderate, and also for creating something of a misunderstanding.

My dispute was that some staff locally appeared to have been trained to count the vouchers last, rather than first, to the effect that no change was being given at all on any transaction that involved a voucher. Having established that this wasn't right, I posted about it on here and contacted Customer Relations. They did nothing to really resolve the dispute because they didn't admit that any mistake was made, insisting, as people have correctly done in this thread, that there is no change from RTVs*.

They sent me a free travel voucher 'as a gesture of goodwill' that I neither want nor need, but neither did I want or need my 7p anyway. So I'm neither up nor down, but there are no doubt still people getting it wrong that I can't do anything about, this is what annoys me and occasionally results in these misunderstandings.

* If you do think RTVs are a sensible and appropriate way to issue refunds / compensation, not giving change is the only way to deal with them. Although what I do think is neither sensible nor appropriate is for some TOCs to issue them without rounding up to the nearest five pence!

I had this happen with Iarnród Éireann once when I tried to pay €44.30 using €40 cash and a €5 RTV. The clerk pointed to where it said no change is given. Funnily enough when I told him to non-issue the ticket and I'd go home and bring back €39.30 in coins, he decided I could have my 70c after all

 

[fowler9]

We're confusing two issues here.

One is the technological facility to repay a transaction - it's immaterials whether it is cash over the counter, a Bank Transfer, PayPal refund etc.

The other is the concept of any financial transaction at all. A repayment in RTVs isn't a repayment. It is a voucher with very limited uses, largely for travel on other services.
. . .and the rail operator has already suffered exactly the same delay, to their train (and perhaps also to its next working), to their crew (and perhaps also to their next working). Now I'm not arguing that passengers have no entitlement to compensation, not at all. But only that the argument "that I've already suffered" cannot be taken as an additional loss over and above the recognition that a compensatory allowance will be made.
i.e. we can't argue for a compensation following a delay, and then argue for a further offer in response to exactly the same delay.

Still, I guess that no matter how generous the rail industry is in comparison with other modes of transport, or in absolute terms without any comparison, people will still want more.

Mate when you work for a company that works for another company and has other companies working for it I don't recommend telling the customer at the far end of the process that your company has suffered to. It looks bad.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Interesting, thanks. Is this even the case on Avantices?

Pretty sure it is, though I seem to recall that "split" payments on Avantix are a bit of a pain to do and have to be entered in a certain order to get them to go through correctly.