Pre-court action, Court Summons.

[MBPartridge]

Basically, i purchased a 16-25railcard online for £30, then purchased tickets from CARDIFF CENTRAL to ASH, with use of my railcard. My railcard did not arrive when it was time to travel. (i had to travel due to a hospital appointment). So i took my conformation email with me to travel. The journey was fine on the way there. However, on my returning journey, from ASH to CARDIFF CENTRAL, i got asked to produce my railcard, when i explained that i had purchased one but it did not arrive in the time stated it would, but i had my conformation and my old railcard to support the fact that i have brought a new one, the train guard offered me to pay for a new ticket that was £105, of which i honestly said i did not have the funds as i am a student. he then showed me to an RPI. Who took my old railcard and ticket and read me the "you do not have to say anything, but it may...." and interviewed me. I felt uncomfortable reading my address etc out on a busy train as i am a 21 year old female. He was not only aggressive but showed no discretion. He used leading questions such as "do you admit you have tried to deceive the train guard and travel on an invalid ticket", of which i answered no, because that was not my intention. i had paid £30 for the railcard why would i intentionally travel without it only to be fined. He gave me a written ticket and told me it would get me to the end of my journey and that i would hear from the train company.

Anyway, i got a pre-court action letter a month later, asking me if i wanted to settle out of court for £173.95. However it did not say which railway bylaw or act i had broken, just stated that i have broken one of them but not which one. I appealed this process as when i got home to Cardiff my 16-25 railcard had not arrived, when i called the company they stated an address, which was not mine, it was my neighbors address, when i went next door, i found my railcard. I appealed as i did not see this as being a fault of my own, i did not intentionally deceive anyone or attempt to travel without having a valid ticket. I got a reply stating they would not agree with my appeal because i traveled with an invalid ticket. Although i find their answer disappointing, i agree that my ticket was made invalid due to not having my railcard in my possession. I offered to pay the penalty and settlement out of court, with my disposable income per month of £10, this is calculated and i provided supporting evidence of this, as due to my railcard not arriving i could not take it on my travel.

They have now replied saying if i do not pay in full they are taking me to court. unsure what i can do?

i have evidence of my purchase of the railcard, my conversations with the railcard and fgw. and my ticket purchase, the evidence of the railcard going to the wrong address, and evidence of my financial situation?

Any help welcome! Thank you in advance

 

[reb0118]

Short answer: I believe that the railway will attempt to use the byelaws against you rather than the more onerous RoRA 1889 [*I can not link to the appropriate fares guide section* (Fares Guide - mod)] Under the law you are deemed to have travelled without a valid ticket as your discounted ticket is not valid unless you can physically produce the railcard at the same time. This is a strict liability offence so no need for the railway to prove intent.

On the plus side the byelaw, although criminal, is a non recordable offence and the court will take your ability to pay into consideration. You can, in general, pay court fines in instalments.

If you can not pay the settlement offered you may indeed have to attend court. I would still attempt to pay this though - can you not make them a better offer? Beg, borrow, or steal to get the funds available. Not easy I know.

Others will be along shorty to offer more detailed advice.......

 

[bb21]

Firstly, unfortunately your ticket was not valid for travel without the Railcard physically being there. Whether you had already purchased one or whether you left it at home is irrelevant. You cannot travel on discounted tickets until your Railcard has physically arrived. This is clearly stated in the FAQs on the Railcard website, and I believe during the purchase process. If you needed the Railcard immediately, you should have bought it at a station. It is therefore correct that your appeal was rejected, harsh as it may seem.

Secondly an offer to settle matters in instalments needs to be realistic. This is not to say that you would be fine offering them £10 a month if that is all you can afford. Look at it from their perspective. They have six months from the date of the alleged offence to lay information in front of the court. If you only offer them £10 a month, by the end of six months if you refuse to pay more, their hands would be tied in what actions they could take, and that would fall far short of their £170 demand. I am not surprised that it is rejected. This is different to when a court orders you to pay £10 a month, which can easily be taken further if you refuse to pay after a few months. So if you really want to settle the matter out of court, you will need to offer more. How you afford it unfortunately is none of their business.

As to the legislation they will likely use, I think Byelaws is the most likely. While it is possible to press charges under the RoRA (Section 5 in particular) for fare evasion, my reading of your case is that it would be a tricky one for them, that is, unless there is more to the story such as any unmentioned attempt to deceive the guard, for example.

 

[Class377]

To echo previous posters, I assume they would be prosecuting under the Railway Byelaws.

To clarify, byelaw 18 states:

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

There are exceptions to these, given in 18.3, as

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

However, 18.3 still means you have to buy a valid ticket on board! As no railcard = no valid ticket, you technically would have fallen foul of this, regardless of intention. The question about whether you intended to deceive would potentially have led to the Regulation of the Railways Act (which covers intentional fare-dodging).

I would beg parents, relatives or friends for a loan if I couldn't afford the £173.95, as it's hardly a massive amount to make the whole matter go away!

 

[arabianights]

I agree with all the advice above, but once you have paid I would also get in touch with Passenger Focus, and possibly the Daily Mail.

 

[Darandio]

and possibly the Daily Mail.

Really? :roll:

 

[NSEFAN]

I agree with all the advice above, but once you have paid I would also get in touch with Passenger Focus, and possibly the Daily Mail.

What specifically should the OP complain to Passenger Focus (and write to the press) about? It has been established that the OP was in error here and needs to pay what the TOC feel is owed, which seems fair enough to me.

 

[island]

Unfortunately as you have discovered it is a criminal offence to join a train without a valid ticket, and a discounted ticket is not valid without the relevant Railcard. It is clear in the terms and conditions of the Railcard website, which you chose to agree to by ticking a box during the purchase process, that the confirmation email is not a Railcard and that you must have the physical Railcard with you in order to travel. You had the option to purchase the Railcard at the station instead

The Train Operating Company is under no obligation to accept payment by instalments, although as mentioned above if the instalments would discharge the amount within six months starting from when you committed the offence, it may be more favourable to the proposal. However, I think if you want to stay out of court then you are probably going to need to beg or borrow the sum demanded, pretty quickly.

 

[455driver]

I agree with all the advice above, but once you have paid I would also get in touch with Passenger Focus, and possibly the Daily Mail.

Why Passenger Focus? Her ticket wasnt valid without the Railcard, end of discussion!

As for the Daily mail, oh pulease! :roll:

 

[bb21]

Agreed. The train company is not at fault in this case so there is nothing to be gained by going to Passenger Focus.

As for the Daily Mail, I take the suggestion with a pinch of salt.

I would have had more sympathy if this were a hidden requirement, but it is clearly displayed during the Railcard purchase process iirc so there really is no excuse.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I cannot believe that someone is seriously suggesting passenger focus or the daily wail.

Railcard tickets have to be shown with railcards. Simples.

 

[Greenback]

Maybe the suggestion was made in jest and a smiley was omitted? I hope so!

 

[455driver]

Maybe the suggestion was made in jest and a smiley was omitted? I hope so!

I doubt it! <no smillie>

 

[arabianights]

You will have to guess.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I cannot believe that someone is seriously suggesting passenger focus or the daily wail.

Railcard tickets have to be shown with railcards. Simples.

Although its simple is it realistic in the modern world? The TOCs seem to want to close booking offices and sell more products online or by machine. Indeed on http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/where-to-buy/ it specifically says "The quickest and easiest way to buy is right here online"

With the site saying that is it a surprise people buy railcards online? Once people are buying online there is going to be an issue on occasions when tickets railcards etc dont arrive and then of course there is a problem because of refund rules. So I think the TOCs are going to have to look at this as it is plainly unfair if the ticket has been bought but not arrived through no fault of the passenger.

Having said the site goes on to say

Mind you it goes on to say

"What happens next?
We aim to dispatch your Railcard within one working day of you ordering it, but it’s probably best to allow up to five working days for your 16-25 Railcard to arrive. It’ll be sent out free of charge by First Class post, but if you prefer, you have the option to pay for Special Delivery.
You’ll need the physical Railcard with you to be able to get a discount on your rail ticket, so be sure to leave enough time before your journey for the Railcard to reach you. If you need to travel straight away, you’re better off buying a 16-25 Railcard over the counter at your local staffed station."

This does beg the question as to what happens if you go down to your staffed station and find its closed due to staff shortages etc

 

[Tracky]

If they sell them online, ATOC get all the money I guess. They also get all that useful personal information.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The confirmation of on-line purchase does actually remind the purchaser in simple language that they cannot use a discounted ticket until they physically hold the actual Railcard and can present it when travelling.

I struggle to understand why people ignore that and continue to flout the rule, but then complain that they are hard done by when it is their actions that catch them out.

 

[timbo58]

Just to clarify, an RPI (or similar authorised person) doesn't have to use discretion.

The RPI (or similar...) will ask leading questions.

These are the normal aspects of an RPIs job, they don't want the interview with anyone to go into pages of text they have to write down, repeat back and agree with the passenger, they want a simple few Q & A's that will satisfy what they suspect and what their TOC prosecuting officer will see as enough to go forward to court with.

Never see an RPI using no discretion or asking 'leading questions' as anything sinister -it isn't.

FWIW The RPI DID use discretion according to the OP's statement -they allowed travel for the full journey and gave the OP a pass to allow the OP to do this -TOCs are not required to provide ongoing transport to anyone found without a valid ticket or the means to pay for one and the OP could have been asked to leave the train at the next manned station.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I suggest you accept the offer of the Out of Court settlement.

I agree with all the advice above, but once you have paid I would also get in touch with Passenger Focus, and possibly the Daily Mail.

What for?
The situation described by MBPartridge occurs many time every day on the network, it doesn't involve any error by any train Company, and is as newsworthing as nothing (so it may be of interest to the gosh-how-dreadful-scandal-press).

 

[Abpj17]

I'm not entirely sure how it was the train companies fault. Did you enter the wrong address on the web form, or did they accidentally - without human intervention - change your address to your neighbours? Or is it the post office's fault for delivering to the wrong address?

You should have called them before travelling...and if you bought online shortly before travel, paid for a more secure delivery method.

 

[SussexMan]

...when i called the company they stated an address, which was not mine, it was my neighbors address, when i went next door, i found my railcard. I appealed as i did not see this as being a fault of my own...

As you applied online, the only place they would have got your address from is from your application. I doubt there is much (if any) human intervention in the process and the address it is sent to will be exactly as you entered it. I fear you will have mis-typed your address. I'm not sure if the confirmation email includes the address you entered but might be worth checking.

If for some reason the address you entered is different to the address it was sent to (and you have proof of this) then you have reason to complain about the issuing of the railcard but this would be totally separate to the issue of travelling on a discounted ticket without the railcard present.

 

[racyrich]

Out of academic interest, what is the inception and expiry date of a railcard ordered online today. Does it start from today's date?
I just went through the website to order one (no intention to complete as I'm decades too old!) and at no point was able to specify a start date. It said it'd be delivered by 2nd Feb. So is it inevitable that a railcard bought online will be unavailable to use for the first few days of its validity? Seems a bit underhand.

 

[DelayRepay]

They add a few days onto the validity of online purchased railcards to allow for the post.

 

[timbo58]

It should be valid from the 1st possible date to could be delivered on.
As (has been very well described in this thread) you cannot use any discounted ticket without the railcard physically in your possession, it wouldn't be of any use were it to be dated on the purchase date rather than the earliest delivery date.

Not underhand at all, eminently sensible in fact

 

[bb21]

Seven days are added to the validity of the Railcard to allow for delivery time. That means if you receive your card within a week of ordering it, you actually get more than a year's/3 years' use (depending on the card you ordered) out of it.

For anyone in doubt, both the order confirmation and despatch confirmation emails make explicit mentions that the confirmations cannot be used in place of the Railcard.

 

[MBPartridge]

Thank you all,i understand that i was wrong to travel without it and therefore will have to pay up. Do not want to put this on my parents as this was my issue, i will have to find the funds from else where...Just seemed *harsh* of them to charge me that much, and yes the start date was the day i traveled although i did not have it with me (it was at my neighbors).

Would this case be the same if you left your railcard at home? I am just wondering.

Thank you all.

 

[MBPartridge]

also, if i had known i could get them from my station i definitely would have done that, however i does not make it very clear online that you can do that, it says it in very small writing.. surely they should let you know in a more obvious way?

 

[bb21]

Would this case be the same if you left your railcard at home? I am just wondering.

If you leave your Railcard at home, you will be treated the same, ie. travelling with no Railcard present.

also, if i had known i could get them from my station i definitely would have done that, however i does not make it very clear online that you can do that, it says it in very small writing.. surely they should let you know in a more obvious way?

There are racks of leaflets at almost all stations, even very small ones, that I have visited so it is unlikely you will go far with that line of argument.

It is quite harsh, I concur, however the requirement to carry the Railcard with you when travelling has been made very clear so I don't think there is much you can do to get out of this situation now. The damage is done, so it's all about damage limitation now. It is an expensive lesson, but hopefully one you will not make again.