the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[Class377/5]

Yes it is. SWT Inner suburbans are red, outer suburbans blue and expresses white.

But that doesn't help you choose you train now does it? If it did it would run foul of the rules. Its a way for SWT to present itself, that's all.

No reason why the 8 car inner suburban 700s can't be painted a different colour from the 12 cars.

But if the 8 cars and 12 share the same route is pointless. Don't be confused on this point, 12 car route does not mean it'll always be a timetabled 12 car.

would be a whole lot more useful and was tried and tested on the Southern Railway and its successors for 70 years until ditched by the TOCs.

And how does that help during disprution? You realise on Thameslink alone there will be 100s of combinations and they won't be able to clash with other TOCs who operate on different routes.

While 'umble commuters don't know the full facts, the rail industry often suffers from "we know bestism" and unwillingness to be innovative and flexible.

And this forum suffers from arm chair experts. Accusing the railway staff of not bring flexible is silly and ill informed drivel. The railway operates with legal/safety restrictions that mean many ideas are none starters. Ones that are are tried. However the problem is the railway is not control is own rules which limits it. And that's without the government changing things.

 

[jon0844]

I knew you were good, but I didn't know you could predict the future!

I do fear I'm talking out of my backside and people will come and mock me in the years to come for getting it so wrong.

But I'm not too worried!

 

[The Box Photter]

What this forum really suffers from is rail industry misanthropes who think the network and the trains thereon are for their own personal pleasure. What the railway really suffers from it an attitude that its "special" and only those steeped in its history can understand why its "special". Anyone with an alternative idea is immediately shot down using the "not invented here" attitude, i.e. only someone who works on the railway can understand.

Let me give you my opinion. In my experience, there are some wonderful, talented people who work on the railway, from platform staff to drivers and cleaners to engineers, but for every one of those people, there are ten who really don't give a fig about the passengers. Don't give me all that old guff about there railway being a safety-critical environment and everyone is trained up to the eyeballs. If that's the case, how did that chap a few years ago manage to pretend to be someone else and worked for months dispatching trains from some God-awful South London station. If that represents the safety standards of the current railway, its a wonder we haven't all died in a twisted tangle of steel and uncomfortable seats. Or perhaps it isn't really that difficult to hold up a piece of black & white plastic and push a button to make some pretty lights light up at the end of the platform. Frankly the level of meaningful interaction I see from members of Thameslink staff seems to be limited to shouting at passengers for standing beyond the yellow line or to tell them that "trains depart from the far end of the platform". Which one is the far end FFS? During times of disruption, unless they've already scuttled off to avoid answering questions, the information they give out is usually either inadequate or wrong or both. Their final gambit is then to feign innocence by blaming Network Rail, or another TOC or "the signaller". I'm not saying that things were any better under BR, surliness of railway staff is certainly not a product of privatisation but in a customer-facing job, it really should be a prerequisite to be able to and be happy to deal with members of the public/passengers/customers.

I'm still left with the impression that many rail workers would be happier if only the passengers would go away and stop complaining when their train (for which they should be grateful) is a bit late or a bit dirty, or a bit cold, or a bit hot or a bit uncomfortable.

Woe betide anyone who thinks the standard of service isn't up to scratch. The usual suggestion is that they should move house to be nearer their workplace or drive instead, neither of which I can do thank you very much. I use Thameslink because if I want to keep my job and maintain my current standard of living I have no alternative. So don't suggest I move, or get another job, or drive to work.

The Government has put in place a system the place more of the burden of funding the railways onto the fare-paying passenger. So, as this burden increases, the passengers are entitled to demand a suitable level of service. The Thameslink Farringdon/Atlantis debacle is the latest in a long line of the railways falling down on the job. Frankly I couldn't give a monkeys whether the flood has been cause by a Thames Water burst main or the tears of laughter from the shareholders of GTR's parent company as they laugh themselves silly over the cash cow they've just bought.

I'm just reflecting the seething fury experienced by my fellow passengers as they see the money transfer from their bank accounts to the (exceedingly wealthy) incompetents who operate the railway they used to own themselves. If you don't believe me, have a gander on Twitter using the hashtag #FarringdonTrains. You'll soon get the idea.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps folk can drag their heads out of their iPhones/Kindles and pay attention to the world around them, like we did in the old days eh?

But that's going to be a big problem as they simply won't.

And I am not sure the problem will so much be people actually getting on the wrong train, but rather the issues of having people all on the platform - especially during disruption - waiting for later trains and holding up those wanting to board an earlier train - and alight from those trains.

 

[transmanche]

[...] would be a whole lot more useful and was tried and tested on the Southern Railway and its successors for 70 years until ditched by the TOCs.

And not just on the Southern. Thames Trains and Chiltern also used route numbers. In fact I think the Chiltern 165s still show the route number. But this is pretty useless if it's not included on timetables, PIS displays and announcements.

 

[petersi]

The Government has put in place a system the place more of the burden of funding the railways onto the fare-paying passenger. So, as this burden increases, the passengers are entitled to demand a suitable level of service. The Thameslink Farringdon/Atlantis debacle is the latest in a long line of the railways falling down on the job. Frankly I couldn't give a monkeys whether the flood has been cause by a Thames Water burst main or the tears of laughter from the shareholders of GTR's parent company as they laugh themselves silly over the cash cow they've just bought.



I'm just reflecting the seething fury experienced by my fellow passengers as they see the money transfer from their bank accounts to the (exceedingly wealthy) incompetents who operate the railway they used to own themselves. If you don't believe me, have a gander on Twitter using the hashtag #FarringdonTrains. You'll soon get the idea.

I not a railway employees. But I do not see how the railways can be responsible for Farringdon flood.

To deal with the fair increases write to your MP as this is political

I would agree that passengers and front line staff do not always get the information they need

A lot of the rail staff post here to explain how the rail industry works and why despite there best efforts things do not always work. I surprised class 377/5 still posts as he seams to care and all .....

I guess I trying to say in a glumlsy fashion lets not get personal

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm just reflecting the seething fury experienced by my fellow passengers as they see the money transfer from their bank accounts to the (exceedingly wealthy) incompetents who operate the railway they used to own themselves. If you don't believe me, have a gander on Twitter using the hashtag #FarringdonTrains. You'll soon get the idea.

Just imagine twitter if it was completely representative:

'train on time again. That's 9/10 times this week. #boringlyreliable'
'Got a seat on the 0726. Again. #doingthecrossword'
'£19 return to London in the peak! I couldn't park for that! #bargain'

 

[asylumxl]

'£19 return to London in the peak! I couldn't park for that! #bargain'

OK, that one is a bit of a stretch .

 

[Bald Rick]

OK, that one is a bit of a stretch .

I agree. But then we (or at least I) have different currencies of pounds in my head. £19 feels like a lot of money for a return trip to London, 22 miles each way. But then a return trip to my local station by taxi is £19 also. For a tenth of the distance (and without those nice 387 seats ) And that doesn't seem so expensive. Comparatively, the train is a bargain.

Similarly, I refuse to buy bottles of beer in the supermarket for anything more than £3.99 for 4, as that is too expensive. Yet if I see the same bottle in the pub for less than £3 it's a bargain!

 

[21C101]

But that doesn't help you choose you train now does it? If it did it would run foul of the rules. Its a way for SWT to present itself, that's all.



But if the 8 cars and 12 share the same route is pointless. Don't be confused on this point, 12 car route does not mean it'll always be a timetabled 12 car.



And how does that help during disprution? You realise on Thameslink alone there will be 100s of combinations and they won't be able to clash with other TOCs who operate on different routes.



And this forum suffers from arm chair experts. Accusing the railway staff of not bring flexible is silly and ill informed drivel. The railway operates with legal/safety restrictions that mean many ideas are none starters. Ones that are are tried. However the problem is the railway is not control is own rules which limits it. And that's without the government changing things.

Sorry but I stand by what I said, and your response to my headcodes suggestion rather proves my point. In 30 years in this industry the kneejerk reaction to any suggested improvement or change is often 'It can't be done' and a litany of excuses as to why.

A two digit alphanumeric headcode has over 1000 unique combinations. And headcodes far from being useless in disruption come in to their own as the pis struggles to cope with the trains all arriving out of sequence.

And if the train gets a stop order then the driver just changes the headcode to the new stopping pattern and tells the pax already what has happened on the train pa.

Simple enough but the industry cant be bothered, so I end up on Blackfriars with the pis totally confused as to which train is which and the train turns up with just Bedford on the front which could mean one of six different stopping patterns.

 

[Class377/5]

I surprised class 377/5 still posts as he seams to care and all

I just want a better railway.

Sorry but I stand by what I said, and your response to my headcodes suggestion rather proves my point. In 30 years in this industry the kneejerk reaction to any suggested improvement or change is often 'It can't be done' and a litany of excuses as to why.

A two digit alphanumeric headcode has over 1000 unique combinations. And headcodes far from being useless in disruption come in to their own as the pis struggles to cope with the trains all arriving out of sequence.

And if the train gets a stop order then the driver just changes the headcode to the new stopping pattern and tells the pax already what has happened on the train pa.

Simple enough but the industry cant be bothered, so I end up on Blackfriars with the pis totally confused as to which train is which and the train turns up with just Bedford on the front which could mean one of six different stopping patterns.

An are you talking about CIS (platform based info system) or PIS (on train info system)? As for the CIS, Problem is when it changes at short notice, the scrolling stopping pattern will be far better indicator than a headcode.

The Core CIS will work much better once the ATO is working and the computer is putting trains in the correct order as it will all be interlinked.

Simply put the industry is bothered. There is a lot of effort currently looking into the issue. The basic problem at the moment is human interaction changing things at short notice which means the CIS changes quickly.

 

[21C101]

I just want a better railway.



An are you talking about CIS (platform based info system) or PIS (on train info system)? As for the CIS, Problem is when it changes at short notice, the scrolling stopping pattern will be far better indicator than a headcode.

The Core CIS will work much better once the ATO is working and the computer is putting trains in the correct order as it will all be interlinked.

Simply put the industry is bothered. There is a lot of effort currently looking into the issue. The basic problem at the moment is human interaction changing things at short notice which means the CIS changes quickly.

Meant CIS. I was showing my age by calling it PIS. Ie passenger information system which it was called before pax got renamed customers by BR.

Comments above noted but still does not really explain why tried and tested headcodes/route codes have been dumped especially as they could easily be brought back and included in timetables again as well as the front of trains.

Disagree on scrolling on on train displays. With 30 second dwell times in the core the train will have gone before half the stations have appeared on the scroll. And as with Chiltern the route number is as well as the other information not instead of it.

 

[asylumxl]

I think the best solution would be a map of the route, laid out horizontally, with the calling points highlighted in a highly visible manner. I believe the 700s will have this onboard and I hope a similar system is installed on the platforms.

 

[otomous]

I not a railway employees. But I do not see how the railways can be responsible for Farringdon flood.

To deal with the fair increases write to your MP as this is political

I would agree that passengers and front line staff do not always get the information they need

A lot of the rail staff post here to explain how the rail industry works and why despite there best efforts things do not always work. I surprised class 377/5 still posts as he seams to care and all .....

I guess I trying to say in a glumlsy fashion lets not get personal

I am also surprised that 377/5 persists. Because what usually happens is that armchair pundits and justifiably frustrated commuters post unreasonable and exaggerated claims, including astonishing predictions for the future, presumably in search of an explanation. When informed people like 377/5 reply with accurate answers they are attacked because their answers happen not to fit the vision of a contrived world that these angry people have cooked up in their heads. They neither listen nor want to know the truth. Well this informed poster has had it up to here with you lot. Bye!

 

[pne]

"04 Bedford" = Brighton and Stns to East Croydon then core stations and St Albans, Harpenden, Luton, Flitwick Bedford

"34 Bedford" = Brighton and Stns to East Croydon then core stations and St Albans, Harpenden, Luton, Flitwick Bedford

What's the difference between those then?

And all the colour and header codes in the world won't help the drunks and the tourists

I think tourists would be especially well served with header codes - they can be told that they can take either the 14 or 44 Bedford routes but not the 24 or 34 (or whatever) as those don't stop at the place they need. Then they don't have to look through large scrolling lists of stops to pick out theirs.

 

[EM2]

I'm not going to quote The Box Photter point by point, but I'll make one observation.
The railway is like an iceberg. You see the top 20% of it, the train and the station. You don't see the 80% going on behind the scenes (often miles from where you are) that keeps it all going.
A friend who works on TL as a station supervisor is so frustrated with it that she's seriously considering leaving.

 

[talltim]

Colour coding isn't permitted as if affcets colour blind passengers ability to work out what the train would be. The current rules around the doors for contrasting doors, it's for those with poor eye sight and the colour blind.

You can have different coloured contrasting doors that are colour blind compatible, you just have to choose the right colours. Or stripes a-la Virgin, and spots on others. Think outside the box a little...

Personally I don't think it needs to be done, or would work with the trains/route patterns of Thameslink, but that is not the same as being impossible.

 

[W230]

Just imagine twitter if it was completely representative:

'train on time again. That's 9/10 times this week. #boringlyreliable'
'Got a seat on the 0726. Again. #doingthecrossword'
'£19 return to London in the peak! I couldn't park for that! #bargain'

Quality.

I think maybe I should join twitter and put some positive outcomes on my journeys.

 

[asylumxl]

Colour coding isn't permitted as if affcets colour blind passengers ability to work out what the train would be. The current rules around the doors for contrasting doors, it's for those with poor eye sight and the colour blind.

As a visually impaired person I feel the government's idea of contrasting colours mine are quite different. The current TL livery, White with light blue doors, does not contrast at all.

 

[transmanche]

And all the colour and header codes in the world won't help the drunks and the tourists

Yet they manage just fine with route numbers on buses and trams...

 

[jon0844]

Disagree on scrolling on on train displays. With 30 second dwell times in the core the train will have gone before half the stations have appeared on the scroll. And as with Chiltern the route number is as well as the other information not instead of it.

At least the boards at St Pancras are going to be changed. To reduce confusion, they need platform screens capable of showing all the stops on one page. Waiting for page 3/3 won't wash when the train isn't there for long.

The current screens are particularly bad given the way they truncate text. They should go now IMO!

And, yes, I appreciate that they work quite well abroad - but usually showing a static display (and where stopping information is sometimes not even shown at all).

I also don't see a problem with route numbers. You can always ignore them if you want (or already know the timetable in your head as a regular user anyway). I can immediately think of some people that would benefit, including some examples given on here.

For a station like St Pancras lower level, it's perhaps even more useful than elsewhere. There are going to be a LOT of different routes and stopping patterns. Even London Bridge, which is very similar, has trains that have a different livery and operator name using just two platforms. There's also a lot more room on those platforms.

But I do respect the fact that there are people who are aware of this and working to make sure the disaster some predict won't happen. I still have concerns though, especially when things go wrong as they will from time to time.

I think maybe I should join twitter and put some positive outcomes on my journeys.

I've Tweeted positive things about journeys before. It's only fair.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair to say there is a school of thought that route coding would be beneficial, and I'm in that school. My vision is destination and a letter reflecting the stopping pattern.

Difficulty is that there are literally hundreds of different service stopping patterns post 2018, and too many codes rather defeats the object.

But I'm hopeful there will be a way around it. It works on the S Bahn, RER, and buses.

On a related note, I've always been surprised that LOROL hasn't gone down the route coding, err, route, for the ELL.

 

[Aictos]

I think the best solution would be a map of the route, laid out horizontally, with the calling points highlighted in a highly visible manner. I believe the 700s will have this onboard and I hope a similar system is installed on the platforms.

I believe they have that in Berlin and it works quite well, can't remember which network though.

 

[stut]

Fair to say there is a school of thought that route coding would be beneficial, and I'm in that school. My vision is destination and a letter reflecting the stopping pattern.

I rather like the Paris RER 'mission codes'. First letter indicates the destination, second the stopping pattern, third and fourth are decoration, or can help add to a stopping pattern.

So, let's say there's a Horsham-Peterborough semi-fast, let's call it PIWO. The stopper can be PONY. The express, something like PEBL for first stop Biggleswade and PEST for first stop St Neots.

Cambridge can have CIAO, COLT, CELL (for Letchworth stoppers), etc. All sorts of patterns come out, and it's easy to remember you're on a BING, a HOLT, a KEYS or whatever.

 

[jon0844]

Fair to say there is a school of thought that route coding would be beneficial, and I'm in that school. My vision is destination and a letter reflecting the stopping pattern.

Difficulty is that there are literally hundreds of different service stopping patterns post 2018, and too many codes rather defeats the object.

But I'm hopeful there will be a way around it. It works on the S Bahn, RER, and buses.

On a related note, I've always been surprised that LOROL hasn't gone down the route coding, err, route, for the ELL.

Perhaps just an easy way identify the key routes would be a start. It would be somewhat less of a problem for passenger and TOC to end up on a faster train that skipped a stop on the same line, than one that ventured over and up another line requiring an adventurous ride back to square one to get onto the right train.

But decent screens and announcements on and off the trains would likely reduce this. I just hope they all work well.

 

[Wolfie]

If only it was as simple as that. Where I live is only 40 mins from St Pancras on the fastest Thameslink train. That's not an excessive commute. The problem is that before Thameslink came along and added unnecessary complication, I could get on a train and be in London in around 35 minutes and there was a trolley refreshment service on some trains and one train in the morning ran from my station non-stop into St Pancras, and one train in the evening ran from St Pancras to my station in the evening without stopping, and I could arrange it so I could get to St Pancras in time to make sure I got a seat. Now passengers getting on at St Pancras have to fight their way onto the trains in the evening just to get a standing space.

I was quite happy using the Bedford - St Pancras line when it terminated in the proper St Pancras Station (before it became a shopping arcade with trains) and at Moorgate. The service was self-contained and wasn't affected by problems happening between London & Brighton, which it often is. One of the reasons we moved here was because of the frequent, reliable train service into London.

My needs haven't changed, but the train service has become progressively less reliable and less relevant to my needs.

This picture has just been posted on Twitter, showing flooding in the tunnel at Farringdon again.

"I'm all right Jack" or at least "I was"...

Because your needs were met before that was great and you don't give a monkey's about those whose needs were not previously met but are being now (or will be soon)!

It's called "public transport" and exists to benefit everyone - if you want a personalised service get a car!

 

[AM9]

"I'm all right Jack" or at least "I was"...

Because your needs were met before that was great and you don't give a monkey's about those whose needs were not previously met but are being now (or will be soon)!

It's called "public transport" and exists to benefit everyone - if you want a personalised service get a car!

Providing train services for commuters is all about moving very large numbers of people as efficiently as possible. Why do so many people think that they are the only passenger that matters to the TOC. If you travel when the trains are at peak loading then you are just a part of a volume of people that the TOC must carry.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why do so many people think that they are the only passenger that matters to the TOC. If you travel when the trains are at peak loading then you are just a part of a volume of people that the TOC must carry.

I don't think many passengers do genuinely feel that they are more important than everyone else. They just want a level of service that reflects the amount of money that they pay.

That doesn't mean that want backside-kissing, but they do expect to receive good and accurate information about what is happening and they do expect to be kept updated. Thameslink have failed miserably at this, just as First did before (although things have definitely gone backwards under GoVia).

Speaking from my experiences with GoVia, down the road at Euston, the fact is that if you want to know what's going on you need to ask Twitter. The platform staff don't have a clue because nobody thought to tell them.

As jonmorris points out, the screens are rubbish, which really doesn't help matters. And at Farringdon you have the added complication of the fact that it isn't operated by GoVia and GoVia staff are thin on the ground there.

 

[carriageline]

Let's have a look shall we..

What this forum really suffers from is rail industry misanthropes who think the network and the trains thereon are for their own personal pleasure.

It's funny (not directly aimed at you), as staff sometimes I feel it's a "them and us" attitude from enthusiasts (some staff do the same granted), and when we post something with fact, knowledge (often insider) and experience we get shot down for all sorts. After I joined the railway, i learnt more about its operation that I thought. After all, we could all leave if you wish

What the railway really suffers from it an attitude that its "special" and only those steeped in its history can understand why its "special". Anyone with an alternative idea is immediately shot down using the "not invented here" attitude, i.e. only someone who works on the railway can understand.

See above, it isn't always what it seems. Whilst I completely don't agree with you, the railway can quite easily make a mountain out of a molehill, sometimes by the rules and procedures laid out. As a signaller, I once requested if we could get a limit of shunt board moved backwards about 2 carriage lengths which would help ALOT with reversing and turn back moves. Good idea everyone thought, management looked into it. The sum that came back was eye watering, as it (obviously) isnt a case of picking it up, and moving it and being done with it!

Let me give you my opinion. In my experience, there are some wonderful, talented people who work on the railway, from platform staff to drivers and cleaners to engineers, but for every one of those people, there are ten who really don't give a fig about the passengers.

Being completely honest, that is a massive exaggeration (I would say it's 1 who doesn't care to 10 that do!!) I am yet to find someone like that. There are plenty of people that get wound up and annoyed with general public stupidity. But 99% of people I have encountered do it for the love of the job, and when the going gets tough they knuckle down, get the job done quickly and reduce delays where possible. A lot of people take pride in what they do

Don't give me all that old guff about there railway being a safety-critical environment and everyone is trained up to the eyeballs. If that's the case, how did that chap a few years ago manage to pretend to be someone else and worked for months dispatching trains from some God-awful South London station. If that represents the safety standards of the current railway, its a wonder we haven't all died in a twisted tangle of steel and uncomfortable seats. Or perhaps it isn't really that difficult to hold up a piece of black & white plastic and push a button to make some pretty lights light up at the end of the platform.

Almost resisted to not feed the troll, but I couldn't resist. I could train you, or anyone to work my panel in about 45-60 mins, and you could near enough run it alone. Same with a driver, they could teach you how to go forwards and stop in no time, and dispatchers the same. What is difficult though, is when it all goes wrong. Failures/delays/incidents, and that's something you couldn't deal with. You or I could go to my nearest platform now and dispatch trains, but if someone asked me a question or something went wrong I would be screwed.

I'm still left with the impression that many rail workers would be happier if only the passengers would go away and stop complaining when their train (for which they should be grateful) is a bit late or a bit dirty, or a bit cold, or a bit hot or a bit uncomfortable.

See point 2.

Woe betide anyone who thinks the standard of service isn't up to scratch. The usual suggestion is that they should move house to be nearer their workplace or drive instead, neither of which I can do thank you very much. I use Thameslink because if I want to keep my job and maintain my current standard of living I have no alternative. So don't suggest I move, or get another job, or drive to work.

Completely agree, with the satisfaction results for the South East at a low something does need to be done. I do feel for passengers when I'm at work and trains are at a stand, even more so when it's half 5 and all you want to do is get home (end of the day, we have all been there!!) whilst I don't want to get into particulars, some things do need to be sorted. That requires change, look at London Bridge for example. But that change, can and does result in delays elsewhere. It's a never ending circle!

 

[The Box Photter]

"I'm all right Jack" or at least "I was"...

Because your needs were met before that was great and you don't give a monkey's about those whose needs were not previously met but are being now (or will be soon)!

It's called "public transport" and exists to benefit everyone - if you want a personalised service get a car!

You're wrong. I would like to see a clean, punctual, reliable service for all fare-paying passengers.

My example was intended to illustrate how sometimes adding extra "choice" in a product or service might not be always for the best. The law of unintended consequences often comes into play.

In the case of Thameslink, I agree that many new journey opportunities have been created (and many more will follow once the GN lines are added and all the new rolling stock comes on stream). On the face of it, this is good, but it adds complications and increases the risk of a wider population of people being inconvenienced when things like the current flooding happen, or when a train breaks down in the core.

By effectively joining up two separate commuter rail lines into and out of the capital, Thameslink has put both sets of passengers at risk if there is a technical problem. Whilst there are now more services to and from Bedford than there were before from central London, having a more frequent service is of little use if you can't get onto the trains because they are already full and standing when you want to get on.