Rolling stock announcement regarding TPE (updated)

[sprinterguy]

People shouldn't forget that prior to FTPE taking over Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services, there were no such luxuries as Class 185s, it was a staple diet of 142s, 150s & 156s, unsure whether 158s ever worked.

I feel quite confident in also saying that I recall that North West Trains' small fleet of class 158s were used regularly on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services, taking over from the 156s on "North West Express" services such as this. As jcollins says, the service then went over to 175 operation, so has had quite a good quality of regular stock for some time, and the use of Pacers was something of a misnomer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I feel quite confident in also saying that I recall that North West Trains' small fleet of class 158s were used regularly on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services, taking over from the 156s on "North West Express" services such as this. As jcollins says, the service then went over to 175 operation, so has had quite a good quality of regular stock for some time, and the use of Pacers was something of a misnomer.

I don't think you're right there. You might have seem them at Preston, but that would have been on services into Yorkshire. Pretty sure it went straight from 156 to 175.

Neil

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think you're right there. You might have seem them at Preston, but that would have been on services into Yorkshire. Pretty sure it went straight from 156 to 175.

Neil

I am an "East side" man, so may turn out to be mistaken on the regular goings on around Manchester at the time, but I do know that the use of former North West 158s on Yorkshire services only occurred much later, in the depths of the Northern franchise around 2006/2007, after they had taken over from 155s on Blackpool to York services. I'm thinking more around the 2000 - 2002 period, although it's possible that I'm thinking of Liverpool to Manchester Airport services.

 

[northwichcat]

I feel quite confident in also saying that I recall that North West Trains' small fleet of class 158s were used regularly on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services, taking over from the 156s on "North West Express" services such as this. As jcollins says, the service then went over to 175 operation, so has had quite a good quality of regular stock for some time, and the use of Pacers was something of a misnomer.

I don't think you're right there. You might have seem them at Preston, but that would have been on services into Yorkshire. Pretty sure it went straight from 156 to 175.

I'm not sure on all the diagrams but there was a 4 car 158 which did a 15:49 Chester-Stockport-Blackpool service. I'm not sure when exactly the service started but it seemed to exist for quite a few years. In early 2004 it became a loco-hauled service to cover for the 2 x 158s subleased to TPE and when Northern took over the service was split with a 142 running Chester-Stockport-Manchester and a 156+153 running Stockport-Blackpool.

Piccadilly drivers didn't sign 158s - Lime Street, Victoria and Chester did (not sure about Blackpool.)

Also while ATN used 158s on their Blackpool-Bradford route (which later became Bradford-York) and advertised it as a TPE route they did use a mix of 156s, TPE 158s and MetroTrain 158s on it so unlike most TPE routes they didn't advertise the service as having First Class.

 

[fluff]

Class 158s were used briefly on Cumbria - Manchester Airport services due to the late delivery of class 175s. I think there were only six units to cover eleven unit diagrams. Due to reliability issues class 142, 150, 153 and 156 were sometimes used to cover for 175s in the early days.

 

[Philip]

The diagrams in this link show what the situation was like in 2001:

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/sum01-175.txt

A good few 3-car 175s hadn't entered service when those diagrams started, but almost all of the Cumbria services were booked as 175s and most of the Blackpool services were too. I remember NWT gold-star liveried 158s working Cumbria services around 1999-2000 but it didn't last long.

This picture of 175110 at Preston is dated April 2001 so I'm guessing 175s first appeared on these routes around the previous winter: http://railphotos.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/pics/175-05.JPG

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Further news today : A TPE staff briefing says that the Class 156s will also be used on some TPE services to Barrow.

 

[Iskra]

Further news today : A TPE staff briefing says that the Class 156s will also be used on some TPE services to Barrow.

That's not necessarily a bad thing- 3-car 185's can be very crowded on that route. 6 car trains can't be used due to platform lengths, so as long as it's 2x 156 then this is a good way of increasing capacity on the route.

 

[northwichcat]

That's not necessarily a bad thing- 3-car 185's can be very crowded on that route. 6 car trains can't be used due to platform lengths, so as long as it's 2x 156 then this is a good way of increasing capacity on the route.

But what if the proposal is a 4 car 156 to leave Manchester Airport and for only 2 cars to go to Barrow?

 

[Iskra]

But what if the proposal is a 4 car 156 to leave Manchester Airport and for only 2 cars to go to Barrow?

That would still be an increase as far as Preston. Not sure about the capacity of a single 156 against a single 185 but I doubt it's much different.

 

[northwichcat]

That would still be an increase as far as Preston. Not sure about the capacity of a single 156 against a single 185 but I doubt it's much different.

Really? There's currently 6 car trains between Manchester Airport and Preston with 3 cars going to Blackpool and 3 going to Barrow.

Worryingly from May:
The 17:14 Manchester Oxford Rd to Windermere service is being diverted to Barrow, with a connecting Windermere service from Lancaster.
The 17:29 Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Barrow (6 car 185 between Man Airport and Preston) is only going to be a train to Blackpool.

Which suggests instead of 9 x 185 carriages over 2 services we'll see 3 x 185 carriages and 4 x 156 carriages.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That would still be an increase as far as Preston. Not sure about the capacity of a single 156 against a single 185 but I doubt it's much different.

According to the ever reliable wikipedia, a 185 has 154 Std class and 15 1st class seats. I think the 156 is in the region of 150 seats.

 

[northwichcat]

According to the ever reliable wikipedia, a 185 has 154 Std class and 15 1st class seats. I think the 156 is in the region of 150 seats.

Northern have 2 different type of 156 interior - I think it's 144 or 146 seats.

 

[samj]

It's all gone a bit quiet on the DRS loco hauled stock for Northern in May. Will this be still going ahead? Also as seen in 319 thread, will the full operation of Liverpool-Wigan/Man Vic electric services commence on Monday 19 May?

 

[mikestone1952]

9707 was moved to Carlisle yesterday and four Riviera (or ex-Riviera)coaches moved from Crewe to Eastleigh( Arlington) and 3 to RVEL Derby, suggesting that something has been firmed up.

 

[fgwrich]

9707 was moved to Carlisle yesterday and four Riviera (or ex-Riviera)coaches moved from Crewe to Eastleigh( Arlington) and 3 to RVEL Derby, suggesting that something has been firmed up.

DRS Have also reportedly purchased the never used DCR/BARS owned DBSOs which have been in store since there end of career on Anglia days. So expect another Eastleigh to RVEL move soon.

Another 4 ex Cargo D / Grand Central / FGW Mk2s which were moved down to Eastleigh from Barrow Hill earlier this year as well, which are now undergoing refurbishment in Eastleigh.

 

[D6975]

DRS Have also reportedly purchased the never used DCR/BARS owned DBSOs which have been in store since there end of career on Anglia days. So expect another Eastleigh to RVEL move soon.

If this is so, then the use of DBSOs for the Cumbrian route seems pretty certain. I suspect they won't have enough ready by the start of the turns though, so we may see top n tail for a while.

 

[mikestone1952]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If this is so, then the use of DBSOs for the Cumbrian route seems pretty certain. I suspect they won't have enough ready by the start of the turns though, so we may see top n tail for a while.

;
I was aware of the talk about the BAR DBSOs but was trying to stick to what I knew, hence my caveat regarding Riviera or ex-Riviera.

 

[D6975]

Just read elsewhere that the Anglia turn, when it starts using 37s will be top and tail, as it is with the 47s. DBSOs on the Cumbrian almost certain I suggest.

 

[snail]

Just read elsewhere that the Anglia turn, when it starts using 37s will be top and tail, as it is with the 47s. DBSOs on the Cumbrian almost certain I suggest.

I've just opened this thread after not reading it for a while. I have say the above sentence baffles me.

 

[mikestone1952]

Looking at RTT it seems that their will be diagrams that mix TPE and Northern working - for instance the set off the 09.38 Carlisle-Lancaster, which if the loco hauled workings are as rumoured, will be split at BIF, goes to preston as a TPE working.

 

[WatcherZero]

Saturday 09:28, 10:28, 11:28 and 12:28 services from Middlesbrough to York have now been made alcohol free by BTP due to antisocial behaviour.

 

[samj]

I have been searching through RTT and I noticed there are differences on Various TPE NW routes. Some are times as "Diesel Multiple Unit" which indicates that's most likely a 185, where as some are timed as "150/156" which I guess are the 156 diagrams from the May TT change. I have worked it out as follows, some are probably wrong so don't use it as a guide, but it makes sense..

Diagram 1
07.17 Blackpool North-Manchester Oxford Road 08.27
08.31 Manchester Oxford Road-Barrow in Furness 10.52
11.13 Barrow in Furness-Blackpool North 13.09
13.40 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 15.15
15.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 17.06
17.20 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 18.51
19.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 21.03

Diagram 2
06.35 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 08.15
08.25 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 10.02
10.40 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 12.15
12.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 14.01
14.40 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 16.15
16.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 18.04
18.43 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 20.22
20.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 22.03
22.45 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 00.24

Diagram 3
06.18 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 07.56
08.40 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 10.17
10.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 12.07
12.40 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 14.15
14.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 16.06
16.36 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 18.15
18.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 20.04
20.42 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport 22.15
22.29 Manchester Airport-Blackpool North 00.02
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, does anyone know what stock will be running on the Northern BPN-MCV services from the May timetable? I should imagine it will be longer than 2 car units due to the Farnworth Tunnel closure.

 

[northwichcat]

samj: That's not the complete list of diagrams. On the current timetable there's services such as a 17:29 Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Barrow service (2 x 185s splitting at Preston) and a 17:14 Manchester Oxford Road to Windermere service which you've not included, so there's at least 3 more diagrams to cover all TPE North West services from Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, does anyone know what stock will be running on the Northern BPN-MCV services from the May timetable? I should imagine it will be longer than 2 car units due to the Farnworth Tunnel closure.

That would be better posted in this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109940 which already gives information regarding up to 6 car formations on Hazel Grove-Preston and Victoria-Blackpool services during the engineering works with temporary platform extensions at stations like Blackrod. (Apparently temporary because it allows them to be done without planning permission.)

 

[samj]

jcollins: Are the services you mentioned guaranteed to be 156s? I never said it was a complete list, just been doing some research on RTT and thought it would be interesting to try and work out the ones that are.

 

[northwichcat]

jcollins: Are the services you mentioned guaranteed to be 156s? I never said it was a complete list, just been doing some research on RTT and thought it would be interesting to try and work out the ones that are.

I misunderstood slightly. However, I'm not sure your conclusion works. For instance this TPE service: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y01770/2015/05/18/advanced is shown as being pathed for a 75mph DMU but doesn't appear on your list. Yet TPE did say they would run 3 diagrams using 156s in 4 car formations mainly on Blackpool services.

 

[IrishDave]

I misunderstood slightly. However, I'm not sure your conclusion works. For instance this TPE service: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y01770/2015/05/18/advanced is shown as being pathed for a 75mph DMU but doesn't appear on your list. Yet TPE did say they would run 3 diagrams using 156s in 4 car formations mainly on Blackpool services.

I *think* I've worked it out. The 08:31 Manchester Oxford Road - Barrow drops the rear 156 at Preston, and the 13:40 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport joins a 156 at Preston. (There are ECS movements to and from Lancaster.) However, they don't seem to be the same 156! It seems that the one that detaches goes off onto Northern services on the Cumbrian Coast, and then comes back the next day.

This, then, is my best guess at the TPE 156 diagrams from May onwards, with thanks to samj for his first attempt:

Diagram 1
5U54 (ECS) 06:55 Blackpool North CMD - Blackpool North 07:00 (with diagram 2)
1U54 07:17 Blackpool North - Manchester Oxford Road 08:27 (with diagram 2)
1C51 08:31 Manchester Oxford Road - Barrow-in-Furness 10:52 (with diagram 2 to Preston)
1N13 11:13 Barrow-in-Furness - Blackpool North 13:09
1U67 13:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 15:15 (with diagram 3 from Preston)
1N65 15:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 17:06 (with diagram 3)
1U74 17:20 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 18:51 (with diagram 3)
1N71 19:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 21:05 (with diagram 3)
1U84 21:34 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 23:16 (with diagram 3)
1N30 23:30 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 01:00 (with diagram 3)
5N30 (ECS) 01:10 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD 01:15 (with diagram 3)

Diagram 2
5U54 (ECS) 06:55 Blackpool North CMD - Blackpool North 07:00 (with diagram 1)
1U54 07:17 Blackpool North - Manchester Oxford Road 08:27 (with diagram 1)
1C51 08:31 Manchester Oxford Road - Preston 09:22 (with diagram 1)
5C52 (ECS) 09:32 Preston - Lancaster 11:23*
1C52 12:01 Lancaster - Barrow-in-Furness 13:06
1N32 13:10 Barrow-in-Furness - Lancaster 14:04
-- transfers from TPE to Northern --
2C79 14:24 Lancaster - Morecambe 14:35
2C70 14:38 Morecambe - Lancaster 14:49
2C43 15:33 Lancaster - Carlisle 19:10
2C46 19:15 Carlisle - Whitehaven 20:25
2C37 20:30 Whitehaven - Carlisle 21:39
2C34 22:00 Carlisle - Whitehaven 23:10
5C34 (ECS) 23:14 Whitehaven - Workington HS 23:42

Diagram 3
5C32 (ECS) 05:41 Workington HS to Maryport 05:55
2C32 05:59 Maryport - Preston 09:30
2C73 11:08 Preston - Morecambe 11:40
2C74 11:45 Morecambe - Lancaster 11:56
2C75 12:04 Lancaster - Morecambe 12:14
2C76 12:38 Morecambe - Lancaster 12:49
-- transfers from Northern to TPE --
5U67 13:20 Lancaster - Preston 14:05
1U67 14:05 Preston - Manchester Airport 15:15 (with diagram 1)
1N65 15:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 17:06 (with diagram 1)
1U74 17:20 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 18:51 (with diagram 1)
1N71 19:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 21:03 (with diagram 1)
1U84 21:34 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 23:16 (with diagram 1)
1N30 23:30 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 01:00 (with diagram 1)
5N30 (ECS) 01:10 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD 01:15 (with diagram 1)

Diagram 4+5
5U53 (ECS) 06:19 Blackpool North CMD - Blackpool North 06:24
1U53 06:35 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 08:17
1N56 08:25 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 10:03
1U61 10:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 12:15
1N62 12:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 14:04
1U69 14:36 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 16:21
1N66 16:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 18:05
1U77 18:43 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 20:23
1N72 20:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 22:03
1U86 22:45 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 00:26
5K86 (ECS) 00:27 Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly 00:43

Diagram 6+7
5N63 (ECS) 05:53 Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport 06:07
1N53 06:18 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 07:56
1U57 08:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 10:17
1N59 10:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 12:09
1U65 12:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 14:15
1N64 14:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 16:09
1U73 16:36 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 18:17
1N69 18:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 20:07
1U81 20:42 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 22:18
1N76 22:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 00:04
5U76 (ECS) 00:09 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD 00:14

* Note that for some bizarre reason 5C52 sits in Barton & Broughton loop from 09:40 to 11:05!

This is 7 diagrams rather than 6, but half of each of diagrams 2 and 3 are Northern, so I think it's plausible... I may, of course, be completely wrong...

 

[janb]

Any insight on the 1429 from Manchester Airport which is presently in as a 156 that magically splits into a 185 at Preston going to Barrow?

 

[northwichcat]

Any insight on the 1429 from Manchester Airport which is presently in as a 156 that magically splits into a 185 at Preston going to Barrow?

That's very good news. In the first fortnight of the new timetable 6 x 156s turn in to 185s, so that will mean TPE can eliminate Sprinter workings. Then maybe the following week they can eliminate 170 workings as well.

Of course RTT shows what's trains are timed for not what will work them, so it's possible the 14:29 Airport-Blackpool/Barrow service will still be 2 x 185s.

 

[Starmill]

Even the 1329 from Manchester Airport was ridiculously full yesterday departing Piccadilly. This afternoon's 1529 was a complete crush load departing Oxford Road.

Looking briefly at the departures from Manchester Airport advertised facilities are looking very eclectic. Wed 10 Jun:

0527 Reservations, First
0618 Reservations
0756 Reservations, First, Trolley
0825
0929 Reservations, First, Trolley
1029
1129 Reservations, First, Trolley
1229
1329 Reservations, First, Trolley
1429
1529
1629
1729 Reservations, First, Trolley
1829
1929
2029
2129 Reservations, First
2229
2330 often Bustituted