Beginning journey later station on Advance Single

[impfreely]

Hi all,

I have an advance YP single ticket Stansted Airport > Leeds (Route Peterboro & EC) booked which follows this route:

• Stansted Airport > Cambridge
• Cambridge > Ely
• Ely > Peterborough (with seat reservation)
• Peterborough > Leeds (with seat reservation)

Due to unfortunate circumstances I'm no longer able to start the journey from Stansted Airport. My question is, can I start this journey at an intermediate station (i.e. Cambridge or Peterborough) and still use the same ticket?

Many thanks

 

[mikeg]

Not officially no. But as you are changing trains anyway if the station is unbarriered it won't be detected. If it's barriered it's a matter of luck as to whether you are let through but properly speaking your tickets aren't valid and they'd have every right to refuse them.

 

[Searle]

I'd never endorse this but they wouldn't really know if you just bought a ticket to get through the barriers for the first journey you make (ie. a Cambridge - Waterbeach/Ely) ticket, before showing your advance ticket.

I wouldn't advise you doing it as there's a risk of penalty fare and such if you get caught, but it depends on how risky you're feeling...

 

[Coolzac]

I'd never endorse this but they wouldn't really know if you just bought a ticket to get through the barriers for the first journey you make (ie. a Cambridge - Waterbeach/Ely) ticket, before showing your advance ticket.

I wouldn't advise you doing it as there's a risk of penalty fare and such if you get caught, but it depends on how risky you're feeling...

Good idea. I think the chances of getting caught are a million to one as how on earth would you get caught? Show ticket, get onto platform, board train and show advance tickets. Personally I would definitely go with this option.

Quite frankly the fact that you are unable to start you reserved journey from a later point is ridiculous, but that is for another thread!

 

[JonathanH]

Good idea. I think the chances of getting caught are a million to one as how on earth would you get caught? Show ticket, get onto platform, board train and show advance tickets. Personally I would definitely go with this option.

Quite frankly the fact that you are unable to start you reserved journey from a later point is ridiculous, but that is for another thread!

The possibility must exist in theory, that if a revenue protection officer saw you enter the station rather than come from a connecting train and then saw your advance ticket from another station, they would be able to see that you have started your journey short.

 

[yorkie]

My question is, can I start this journey at an intermediate station (i.e. Cambridge or Peterborough) and still use the same ticket?

The ticket T&Cs do not permit it.

However, following some high profile cases where passengers were denied entry to the trains on production of their Advance ticket, the rail industry issued guidance to staff instructing them to accept tickets in the circumstances you describe, even though the conditions do not permit it. However the guidance did not reach all staff...

I cannot be certain whether or not staff would...
a) accept such a ticket (in accordance with industry guidelines and the expectations of staff); or
b) follow the NRCoC to the letter and charge an excess fare (see condition 16) of the difference between the price you paid and the Super Off Peak Single fare; or
c) make up their own rule and charge for a completely new Single fare.
The reason I cannot be certain is because I do not know what gateline staff at Cambridge have been instructed to do, and elsewhere in the country it has been known the first possibility to happen, and the last possibility to happen. The middle possibility may have happened, and is what the T&Cs say should happen, though I've not yet heard of it actually happening (maybe someone can inform us of an instance of this?)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with all the above who advise that 'starting short' is not permitted, and I also agree that, in the example stated, is unlikely to be detected. But, . . . . I can't agree with this:

. . . . I think the chances of getting caught are a million to one as how on earth would you get caught? . . . . .

There are regular revenue protection inspections carried out across the network, with a number of techniques to distinguish the 'honest' from the 'dishonest' passenger. One of those techniques would identify this abuse of an Advance ticket in a flash.

Fortunately, it is a transgression which the Railway Operators are disinclined to pursue if it is a one-off, low value, deviation from the booked journey.

To be more blunt

• it is not permitted
• you might not be detected abusing the permission
• you will be at risk of prosecution if you do
• most Companies will overlook it if it is a one-off.

 

[YorkC]

The ticket T&Cs do not permit it.

However, following some high profile cases where passengers were denied entry to the trains on production of their Advance ticket, the rail industry issued guidance to staff instructing them to accept tickets in the circumstances you describe, even though the conditions do not permit it. However the guidance did not reach all staff...

I cannot be certain whether or not staff would...
a) accept such a ticket (in accordance with industry guidelines and the expectations of staff); or
b) follow the NRCoC to the letter and charge an excess fare (see condition 16) of the difference between the price you paid and the Super Off Peak Single fare; or
c) make up their own rule and charge for a completely new Single fare.
The reason I cannot be certain is because I do not know what gateline staff at Cambridge have been instructed to do, and elsewhere in the country it has been known the first possibility to happen, and the last possibility to happen. The middle possibility may have happened, and is what the T&Cs say should happen, though I've not yet heard of it actually happening (maybe someone can inform us of an instance of this?)

Do you have any experience of part b) being the way this has been dealt with? In the past I've got a refund minus £10 on an advance ticket, thinking that I couldn't excess an advance...

 

[yorkie]

I'd never endorse this but they wouldn't really know if you just bought a ticket to get through the barriers for the first journey you make (ie. a Cambridge - Waterbeach/Ely) ticket, before showing your advance ticket.

There is an argument to say that your journey from Cambridge to Leeds could be made on two tickets, the first ticket being Cambridge to Ely, and the second ticket could be the ticket already held to Leeds. The journey would be from Cambridge to Leeds, and the journey would not be "broken" at Ely, as long as the passenger stayed within station premises at Ely.

Not everyone shares that line of thought, however!

I wouldn't advise you doing it as there's a risk of penalty fare ...

The Penalty Fare legislation does not include starting short as one of the reasons for a Penalty Fare to be issued, and any such Penalty Fare would be null & void. The NRCoC clearly states that "...If you start ... your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available...."

A small minority of staff are not familiar with the NRCoC, however I'd fully expect all staff who are authorised to charge Penalty Fares would be familiar with it.

and such if you get caught, but it depends on how risky you're feeling...

In this case there is no attempt to avoid payment of the fare, however if there was, then it cannot be endorsed, regardless of how low the "risk" is of "getting caught".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you have any experience of part b) being the way this has been dealt with? In the past I've got a refund minus £10 on an advance ticket, thinking that I couldn't excess an advance...

Not that I am aware of. But in some cases we do not know if we're getting the full story. I cannot rule out it's happened to someone, somewhere!

The T&Cs clearly allow for it, but guidance issued to staff is not to charge it in the circumstances described by the OP (ie, a Stansted to Leeds ticket being used to start short at Cambridge).

 

[Romilly]

In the Fares Guide on the forum, there is the text of some published FAQs in connection with Advance tickets. The text includes the following:

Q26 - Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?
A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare.

This FAQ may not help much if a Cambridge-Leeds ticket would have been more expensive than a Stansted-Leeds ticket but, if buying from Stansted can't be seen as a way of cutting the cost of a Cambridge-Leeds journey (or the lack of intent can be easily established) the most straightforward course of action might be to rely on FAQ26.
----------------
FAQ26 is the guidance Yorkie was referring to: I must have been typing when Yorkie posted.

 

[yorkie]

... if buying from Stansted can't be seen as a way of cutting the cost of a Cambridge-Leeds journey....

The fares are identical.

Without any discounts, the fare tiers for the route Via: PETERBORO & EC (which is the correct routeing for this ticket), from lowest to highest, are £13, £20.30, £27, £35.50, £45, £60, £73, £85, £96.50.