Comparison of offences

[Class377]

Regardless, it is less safe to travel at 80mph than 70mph. Of course it is, because if there is a collision *any* increase in speed will increase the collision energy and therefore the severity of any injuries.

Neil

Yes, but the decrease in safety is minimal, and, given that cars nowadays are built like tanks and motorways (in which 80mph is commonplace) are out safest roads, that decrease is not worth noting at that speed.

The argument also could be used for reducing speed limits to 60, then 50, etc. Doing above 70 never adopted for safety and so even the lawmakers accept that 80 is not intrinsically unsafe.

 

[najaB]

I think penalty fares rigorously enforced will stop a lot of people from thinking bunking on is an option.

Agreed. But they need to be just that - a fare which is being used in a restorative manner when a mistake has been made. As distinct from a fine (or settlement) that acts in a punitive manner when deliberate intent is involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. But they need to be just that - a fare which is being used in a restorative manner when a mistake has been made. As distinct from a fine (or settlement) that acts in a punitive manner when deliberate intent is involved.

With car parks, there is no differentiation.

As I've noted elsewhere, I think fare evasion should be decriminalised, the penalty set such that the railway suffers no overall financial loss from it, and stop worrying about it.

The exception to this would be *blatent* deliberate acts i.e. forged tickets and similar. But not simple "not bothering to buy a ticket until caught".

Neil

 

[jkdd77]

...Keep penalty fares for technical violations and honest mistakes - e.g. someone travelling with a discounted ticket but no rail card, or on a peak train with an off-peak ticket.

I'm sure you already know this, but, under current regulations, a passenger cannot be PF'd if the *only* reason for the invalidity of their ticket is that they are travelling on a service at a time which the restriction code for their (Super) Off Peak ticket does not permit.

They can be excessed, or reported for prosecution, with the subsequent likelihood of facing an expensive out-of-court settlement, but not PF'd.

However, I would hope that a passenger who has made a honest mistake as to validity would simply be excessed, rather than threatened with prosecution.

 

[najaB]

I'm sure you already know this...

Yeah, had a brain fart there trying to come up with an example. I was originally going to say travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, I would hope that a passenger who has made a honest mistake as to validity would simply be excessed, rather than threatened with prosecution.

A passenger buying a ticket with the wrong route with a view to evading the difference between the fares seems an unlikely scenario compared with the other options for fare evasion.

Neil

 

[Flamingo]

A passenger buying a ticket with the wrong route with a view to evading the difference between the fares seems an unlikely scenario compared with the other options for fare evasion.

Neil

It's quite common to find people on a cheaper ticket but a more expensive route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's quite common to find people on a cheaper ticket but a more expensive route.

Deliberate evasion, though, or just bought the wrong ticket because the system is too complicated? Or indeed deciding to excess on board having bought the cheaper one with good intentions but changing their mind, possibly in the hope of not being caught?

Neil

 

[najaB]

Deliberate evasion, though, or just bought the wrong ticket because the system is too complicated?

Could be either - which is why a national penalty fare system is needed. Then people who have made a mistake will learn their lesson without threat of criminal sanction, and those who keep making the same 'mistake' will find that they can't keep on getting away with it.

 

[yorkie]

A 'wrong route' is an excess, not Penalty, fare, and that's the way it should remain!

 

[Fare-Cop]

I think fare evasion should be decriminalised, the penalty set such that the railway suffers no overall financial loss from it, and stop worrying about it.

The exception to this would be *blatent* deliberate acts i.e. forged tickets and similar. But not simple "not bothering to buy a ticket until caught".

Neil

I think that in this one post you perfectly sum up what is wrong with your opinion, which you are of course entitled to hold.

To say that 'not bothering to buy a ticket until caught' should not be dealt with robustly by the Courts suggests that you believe that it is OK to cheat and cheat again until caught out, but then just want to be told off, pay some affordable financial penalty and then be free to keep on cheating until caught again!!

Well, the Law Lords were asked on appeal to think that one through during the last quarter of the twentieth century and didn't agree with you. Intending to make payment only when challenged is an offence.

From the evidence of the Courts attitudes to opportunist fare evasion today, it seems that nothing has changed, and neither should it..

 

[Flamingo]

A 'wrong route' is an excess, not Penalty, fare, and that's the way it should remain!

Agreed.

It is not helped by the route-planners only showing the "quickest" route, and if staff are asked "How do I get to X?" they will often say the quickest/most common route, not "What ticket are you holding?".

So it is difficult to know if it was a deliberate mistake or confusion, but the passengers reaction when it is explained and the excess requested is usually a give-away.

Sometimes people can be sent back onto their "correct" route, and are happy to do that.

Some people are very happy to pay the excess and apologetic, some people are VERY upset and aggressive to be asked to pay and it sometimes ends in tears (theirs).

The change-of-route excess can be anything from 50p to £20-£30 depending on routes, tickets and time of day.

Personally, I am more inclined to charge an excess if the passenger is changing trains, especially on to another TOC's trains, as I figure it's not fair on the guard on that train to send them my problem, especially with a stamped ticket and the ready-made excuse "The guard on the last train said nothing".

If they refuse to pay, I stamp the ticket, endorse the ticket "RTP excess" and give it back to them, and depending on the station they are changing at, I'll inform Revenue at that station and pass it on to them.