LHCS FA Cup Specials?

[alexl92]

I've just seen a bloke having a go at Northern Rail on twitter (nothing new) because it's FA Cup Day, Middlesborough are hosting Manchester City and still some services are 2-car pacers which are hugely overloaded.

Northern have said, as ever, that they're trying to deploy their fleet as effectively as possible, but how feasible would it be for them to hire in one or two loco-hauled sets for the busiest services to allow units to strengthen other trains just for one day?

Obviously they can't magic spare DMUs up at will but surely it wouldn't be hard to ask DRS to stick a couple of sets on with 4-5 coaches each on some of the busier routes and then use the released units to help out elsewhere...

What stops this happening? Poor planning? Routes not being signed? Other practical reasons?

 

[8J]

Simple answer:

£

 

[yorkie]

Northern have said, as ever, that they're trying to deploy their fleet as effectively as possible, but how feasible would it be for them to hire in one or two loco-hauled sets for the busiest services to allow units to strengthen other trains just for one day?

It is feasible, and EMT often do this sort of thing (for example on routes like Derby-Stoke). However Northern Rail's priority is generating profits for the parent company's shareholders, not passengers, and it's cheaper to simply leave people behind.

 

[najaB]

However Northern Rail's priority is generating profits for the parent company's shareholders, not passengers, and it's cheaper to simply leave people behind.

I don't object to people expressing opinions, but it's disingenuous to state them as fact.

Edit: Apologies to Yorkie as my original post was very badly phrased and probably came across as arrogant.

 

[Adam0984]

I think if Northern had LHCS in its own fleet then subject to route & traction knowledge they would use it but I suppose it's a hassle to hire from DRS on a ad hoc basis.
EMT use their own HST/Meridians to boost capacity
ATW use their own LH
GA use their own stock with I think the DRS thunderbird?

 

[455driver]

Morning trip-
Which services will be the busiest?
How busy will they actually be?
What do you do with the train now?

Afternoon trip-
What time is the game supposed to finish?
Which service are you going to put the LHCS on?
What happens if there is extra time?
What happens if there are penalties?
What happens if everyone goes to the pub to celebrate/console themselves?
Which service are you putting the LHCS on again?

Easy isn't it!

 

[Thomas6187]

Middlesborough are hosting Manchester City

Middleborough are at Manchester City

So it hard to ensure all trains on all routes into Manchester are strengthened.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Simple answer:

£

It would not be beyond the bounds of possibility to insist strengthening on key dates within franchise specs?

 

[The Planner]

In terms of sports events, the dates are never fixed every year and have certain flexibility apart from the fact you will have no idea who is playing who. They would only ever be dealt with on a STP basis much like other major events such as concerts and festivals.

 

[455driver]

Twickenham Stadium are told of any engineering work that will effect services to Twickenham as early as possible (with big jobs over a year ahead of the actual works taking place) but it still didnt stop them scheduling a major rugby International when all lines were closed between Clapham jn and Twickenham, guess who all the fans blamed when they couldnt get to the Stadium? :roll:

 

[SeanG]

For the Boro at Man City example:

Surely many will just take the direct train from Middlesbrough and points through to York towards Manchester Pic and then get the tram out/walk out

At least that what the advice in the last Boro home programme stated, and is the logical thing to do. I can't see what Northern can do about this. I suppose TPE could strengthen a Middlesbrough service or two?

Thing is this happens all over the country every Saturday, lets say for an average of about 40 odd games

 

[455driver]

Dont you realise it is the custom on here to blame Northern for every problem in the North!
You cant go blaming any other TOC (especially not Virgin or TPE ) otherwise 'they' will be round your house with the pitchforks!

 

[30907]

Unfortunately, as with the pre Christmas services, you'd have to run them as extras for timing reasons, you'd only realistically get one return trip out of the stock (maybe more if you did Vic - Bolton) so the revenue wouldn't be that great, especially at GM fares.

By contrast, the MUFC shuttles probably cover their costs.

 

[455driver]

Of course there is nothing stopping the football club chartering a train or some (road) coaches is there!

Of course with clubs willing to have an evening kick off (to suit the television companies) despite the fact it means a lot of people wont be able to get home after the match I suppose it shows how much the clubs care for their fans!

 

[Donny Dave]

Of course there is nothing stopping the football club chartering a train or some (road) coaches is there!

Of course with clubs willing to have an evening kick off (to suit the television companies) despite the fact it means a lot of people wont be able to get home after the match I suppose it shows how much the clubs care for their fans!

Most clubs do charter several coaches for away games. Scunthorpe United for instance, when we played Chelsea in the FA Cup quite a few years back laid on 25 coaches (with demand for another 10, but couldn't source any more). Usually though there is 3 or 4 coaches for each away game.

As for the evening kick off times, that's usually the TV companies dictating that, although the police do have a say as well.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Football specials were common in the 1960s, but there was a surplus of stock then, not to mention lines were not quite so busy as now.

Now, we don't have loads of spare coaches and locos (or the crews) that would otherwise be twiddling their thumbs. The football fixtures come out at the beginning of August, with the first games taking place within a couple of weeks. This doesn't allow enough time for services to be planned even if there were the resources to run them. At times services will be strengthened if possible, even Northern managed to run a special for Sheffield Wednesday supporters to get to the game at Huddersfield. This ran fast via Wakefield Kirkgate, and avoided overcrowding on the Penistone line services, which are well used on Saturdays including Huddersfield supporters travelling in from the outlying districts.

 

[CC 72100]

Indeed, apparently many of the Bolton fans at Anfield tonight arrived on club-organised coaches.

(In reference to David's post)

 

[darloscott]

To be fair TPE have run an extra service from Piccadilly to Middlesbrough - 1826 called at Huddersfield, Leeds, York then direct to Thornaby & Middlesbrough

 

[33056]

Talking about clubs chartering transport for away games; Chelsea (or their supporters club) do charter trains quite often. In fact they had one back from Liverpool last Tuesday evening see HERE . Was T&T DRS 57/3s IIRC.

 

[telstarbox]

The FA could rule that late kick offs are between close teams (so not Sunderland v Southampton) but they don't really care so they won't.

 

[Mark62]

Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
However Northern Rail's priority is generating profits for the parent company's shareholders, not passengers, and it's cheaper to simply leave people behind.

I don't object to people expressing opinions, but it's disingenuous to state them as fact.

Edit: Apologies to Yorkie as my original post was very badly phrased and probably came across as arrogant.

Since when was being honest being disingenuous. Theres sufficient empirical evidence to back up the assertion that NR is primarily concerned with profit and that the needs of passengers are secondary to this.

 

[jopsuk]

All this talk, and no-one suggesting that GA and GN should have strengthened Cambridge services from London on Friday for the Man U fans? Tsk!

 

[455driver]

The FA could rule that late kick offs are between close teams (so not Sunderland v Southampton) but they don't really care so they won't.

You are wrong, they do care!

About the money from the television companies.
They couldn't care less about the fans.

 

[CC 72100]

The FA could rule that late kick offs are between close teams (so not Sunderland v Southampton) but they don't really care so they won't.

I know that on Boxing day (and possibly New Year's day as well, although I'm not very sure on that one) they do try to keep travelling distances to a minimum given that it is more difficult to get around and organise transport etc. (Note what I've just said does not translate as: "they should run trains on boxing day")

(from the FA website)
26/12/2014 15:00 Arsenal v Queens Park Rangers
26/12/2014 15:00 Burnley v Liverpool
26/12/2014 15:00 Chelsea v West Ham United
26/12/2014 15:00 Crystal Palace v Southampton
26/12/2014 15:00 Everton v Stoke City
26/12/2014 15:00 Leicester City v Tottenham Hotspur
26/12/2014 15:00 Manchester United v Newcastle United
26/12/2014 15:00 Sunderland v Hull City
26/12/2014 15:00 Swansea City v Aston Villa
26/12/2014 15:00 West Bromwich Albion v Manchester City

Obviously they have to be careful not to create too many local derbies, otherwise that would solve one issue but create further complications.

 

[Tracky]

There are lots of issues surrounding event planning.

ATW ran, at considerable expense and logistical head scratching a loco hauled additional train from Wrexham General to Wembley. As an extra train reservations were mandatory so income was capped. Being a football special, it had to be 'dry' reducing potential revenue from catering. It was a definite hit with the family football supporters but did ATW get any positive media. No, the absense was very disappointing.

to generalise is wrong, but football fans on the railway in particular can be a real nuisance. Often they take heavy policing and have a negutive impact on other rail users experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Balancing what I have just posted with rugby, which bright spark thought of a millenium stadium event on a Friday evening. Just when capacity through Cardiff Central is at its most stretched.

 

[LeylandLen]

There's an EMT special next Weds 28/1 from St Pancras (1445) to Sheffield (1653) and return (dep Sheffied 2315 ) for the Sheff Utd v Spurs league cup semi final 2nd leg. On RTT its down as HST125 . I believe its been chartered by Spurs. I'm told that there should be about 5500 Spurs fans there .

 

[Jordeh]

Commendable EMT also ran an extra HST there and back for Chesterfield supporters to Derby yesterday despite the two stations already having a good frequency. Looked very well utilised.

 

[adrock1976]

You are wrong, they do care!

About the money from the television companies.
They couldn't care less about the fans.

I remember back in 2004 when both the English and the Scottish League Cup was sponsored by Carling [Black Label] at the time.

Carling and various TV companies proposed to show a special match between the winners of the Scottish League Cup and its English counterpart.

As the winners in Scotland was Livingston and the winners in England being Bolton Wanderers, needless to say those proposals were very quietly dropped.

In my own view, both Carling and the TV companies were wanting the Scotland winners to be either Celtic or the 1872 original incarnation of the Ibrox team, with the English winners being either Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, or Liverpool.

In peace

Adam

 

[ReverendFozz]

I remember back in 2004 when both the English and the Scottish League Cup was sponsored by Carling [Black Label] at the time.

Carling and various TV companies proposed to show a special match between the winners of the Scottish League Cup and its English counterpart.

As the winners in Scotland was Livingston and the winners in England being Bolton Wanderers, needless to say those proposals were very quietly dropped.

In my own view, both Carling and the TV companies were wanting the Scotland winners to be either Celtic or the 1872 original incarnation of the Ibrox team, with the English winners being either Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, or Liverpool.

In peace

Adam

Middlesbrough won the League Cup in '04

 

[adrock1976]

Apologies for my slight error - I knew the Trotters reached the final that year with their opponents being Middlesbrough, being a 2-1 win to Boro (Bolo Zenden one of the goalscorers that day).

The gist of my previous post still stands though.

In peace

Adam