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FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

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richw

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But would you allow Advance fares? What about TOC only fares?

On the line I travel on there are 8 hours of 'peak' travel a day and there are more people travelling at these times than at off-peak times (12 car trains full and standing in the peaks, for example). At weekends there are fares that undercut the normal off-peak fare.y

If it moved to one fare I suspect that it would be closer to the Anytime fare than the off-peak.

I think it would be area dependent. Are passenger numbers and total fares collected available for a set journey, to give an idea for average fare paid?
Include advance fares in calculating the average but get rid of them, as they seem to cause more trouble than they are worth.
 
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455driver

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The price charged would have top take in to account the numbers travelling on each type of ticket now so it works out revenue neutral so it will probably be closer to the Peak price than the Off Peak price.
Ticket prices started being varied so they could price people off the busy trains and encourage them to to use the quieter trains, if its all one price what is going to happen?

Be careful what you wish for!
 

Bletchleyite

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Ticket prices started being varied so they could price people off the busy trains and encourage them to to use the quieter trains

They started that way, but then went on, as businesses have reduced their use of First Class, to become a price differentiator. Not that that affects your point, as if they were purely about busy trains departures from Euston on a Friday evening up to around 2130-2200 would be Anytime only, same with Sundays southbound from about 1400 to close of service.

Notably BR used to differentiate in this way (SuperSavers not valid on Fridays and summer Saturdays) but the TOCs removed this of their own volition!

Neil
 

Tetchytyke

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It's not exactly written in plain, idiot proof, easy to understand English, mind.

And that's the problem, for staff as well as punters.

I don't think anyone expects a TM to get the ticket machine out 30 seconds before departure, but I think ticket barrier staff should have access to ticket restriction information.

It doesn't need to be a ticket machine, either. All the ticket restrictions are available on the NRE website- with a short link- and even a cheap smartphone should be able to display them. I don't know if gateline staff are trusted with a Blackberry (I expect not) but surely there should be one person on a gateline with equipment to check basic things like delays or ticket restrictions.

Especially as, in this case, the ticket restriction actually IS in plain and simple language. It simply says this:

Outward: VALID ANY TRAIN EXCEPT DEPARTURES BEFORE 1000 M-F
Return: VALID ANY TRAIN
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ticket prices started being varied so they could price people off the busy trains and encourage them to to use the quieter trains, if its all one price what is going to happen?

That was the excuse, but really it was about price-gouging for those (business travellers) who had to travel at that time. On most InterCity routes now the first 2-3 off-peak trains are much busier than the peak trains. Even on London Midland I find the 1905 train home to be pretty much the busiest one of the whole evening period, and that's on a route where the majority of passengers have season tickets.
 
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richw

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That was the excuse, but really it was about price-gouging for those (business travellers) who had to travel at that time. On most InterCity routes now the first 2-3 off-peak trains are much busier than the peak trains. Even on London Midland I find the 1905 train home to be pretty much the busiest one of the whole evening period, and that's on a route where the majority of passengers have season tickets.

The famous 1915 Paddington to Swansea comes to mind.
 

pne

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Advances should only be sold on trains where there are normally seats spare.

I thought that was rather the point of Advances - to help load management. So they would only be sold on trains that are comparatively empty, and as the trains fill up, the lower price tier quotas would be exhausted and you could only buy successively more expensive Advances until the train is full enough that you don’t need Advances to help fill it any more and you can only buy walk-on tickets if you want to use that train.
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought that was rather the point of Advances - to help load management. So they would only be sold on trains that are comparatively empty, and as the trains fill up, the lower price tier quotas would be exhausted and you could only buy successively more expensive Advances until the train is full enough that you don’t need Advances to help fill it any more and you can only buy walk-on tickets if you want to use that train.

Yes, though that role seems to be shifting a bit. That said, it's mainly people on here who often seem to think that the cheapest Advance should be the normal fare.

Neil
 

Greenback

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Advances were introduced at the beginning of what could now be called a move by Br towards yield management, which is really defined as maximising the amount of yield that can be extracted from a particular service by management of the fares available.

This is related to, but not exactly the same as, load management.
 

Hadders

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Consider the prices from my local station to London:

Anytime £21
Off-peak £16
Weekend £11

If the fares moved to one price I suspect it would need to be somewhere around £19 to make it revenue neutral.

Imagine how the increase for leisure travellers is going to look on the front page of the Daily Hate....

It won't happen
 

Bletchleyite

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Imagine how the increase for leisure travellers is going to look on the front page of the Daily Hate....

No need to imagine, as you can take a look at precisely what TfL are doing with Oyster caps at the moment to see how the implementation of such a thing would work (or not).

Neil
 

CC 72100

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Consider the prices from my local station to London:

Anytime £21
Off-peak £16
Weekend £11

If the fares moved to one price I suspect it would need to be somewhere around £19 to make it revenue neutral.

Imagine how the increase for leisure travellers is going to look on the front page of the Daily Hate....


It won't happen

And for quite valid reasons - I'm happy to accept that I am getting a discount in exchange for not wanting to travel at the busiest times, why should all prices be raised so that I can subsidise those who do?

Plus, if peak/off-peak is done away with, will this not further exacerbate the problem of everybody wanting to travel at once? The 19:15 Pad- Swansea has been mentioned upthread as an example of a shoulder-peak train that is very busy, I don't think it's so much to do with people thinking that 19:15 is the perfect time to go to Wales, more likely people want to travel at a peak sort of time but not pay peak prices. Without peak/off-peak, trains that leave at say 18:00 (I'm making a guess that this is the most popular time, but it doesn't matter if it isn't, it is for arguement's sake only) would be even more overcrowded than they are now. Peak/off-peak can be seen as the railway's way of attempting load management, with the added benefit that those who don't want to travel at the most popular time are rewarded for making that choice.
 

JamesRowden

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To help staff to identify if a ticket is valid on a certain train, what about giving staff a machine that scans a ticket (the details could be inserted manually if the ticket is damaged), and comes up with the next fastest journeys that are valid on that ticket. The staff can then helpfully reccomend the next fastest valid journey if a ticket isn't valid. Gateline staff would need to input their location into the machine. Guards would need to input the service that the passenger is travelling on. Similar automatic systems could be located at large stations for passengers to check it for themselves. The device could work offline if the whole ticket/timtable database is downloaded by it at the start of each day. I think that such a device would be commerically viable since it would be applicable to all guards and gate line staff in the country. Why doesn't it exist already?
 

Deerfold

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To help staff to identify if a ticket is valid on a certain train, what about giving staff a machine that scans a ticket (the details could be inserted manually if the ticket is damaged), and comes up with the next fastest journeys that are valid on that ticket. The staff can then helpfully reccomend the next fastest valid journey if a ticket isn't valid. Gateline staff would need to input their location into the machine. Guards would need to input the service that the passenger is travelling on. Similar automatic systems could be located at large stations for passengers to check it for themselves. The device could work offline if the whole ticket/timtable database is downloaded by it at the start of each day. I think that such a device would be commerically viable since it would be applicable to all guards and gate line staff in the country. Why doesn't it exist already?

Doesn't that only identify the next fastest journey which may not give the same answer as "is the ticket valid on this train".

I've deliberately caught a slower (but valid) train than required to be able to sit with a friend who I had not realised was travelling when I bought my ticket.
 

jon0844

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Putting a QR code or similar on the ticket would further help, as it could contain more detail from the ticket to save manual entry. Scan the barcode, look up the relevant restriction AND valid services on or around that time (or any chosen time in the future).

If staff ever get connected equipment, which they should in this 'day and age' then it would be one of many things they could then do.
 

JamesRowden

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Doesn't that only identify the next fastest journey which may not give the same answer as "is the ticket valid on this train".

I've deliberately caught a slower (but valid) train than required to be able to sit with a friend who I had not realised was travelling when I bought my ticket.

Just insert a custom 'via' point like on national rail enquiries. The passenger could state the via point if they know the train isn't the fastest to the destination.
 

Hadders

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But it's far more effective for the TOC's if they can say 'This is a peak train and super Off-peak tickets and off-peak tickets are NOT valid'.

Of course we all know that such a statement is never fully true, but how many 'normal' passengers believe it and purchase an Anytime ticket when they don't need to.

The thing is, whilst staff acted incorrectly in the OP's case, if ticket validates were more widely publicised TOC's would seek to tighten up restrictions even further using the guise of simplification which would result in massive fare increases to travel at certain times of the day.
 

Deerfold

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Just insert a custom 'via' point like on national rail enquiries. The passenger could state the via point if they know the train isn't the fastest to the destination.

Again, this doesn't guarantee validity.

Now a tool which confirms ticket validity for invidual trains would be good. In its absence, easy access to the restrictions code is good - and staff willing to look at it.

My guess is that if staff have already decided a ticket is invalid and won't look at a restriction code they propably wouldn't have used your prosed tool either.
 

JamesRowden

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Again, this doesn't guarantee validity.

Now a tool which confirms ticket validity for invidual trains would be good. In its absence, easy access to the restrictions code is good - and staff willing to look at it.

My guess is that if staff have already decided a ticket is invalid and won't look at a restriction code they propably wouldn't have used your prosed tool either.

The first thing that the system would do is check the validity of the presented ticket on the particular train. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to find the next fastest valid journeys. I thought that offering valid journeys to passengers whoes tickets are not valid on the train would be a simple bonus.
 

Deerfold

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The first thing that the system would do is check the validity of the presented ticket on the particular train. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to find the next fastest valid journeys. I thought that offering valid journeys to passengers whoes tickets are not valid on the train would be a simple bonus.

That would be good - I didn't read your initial suggestion like that.
 

richw

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But it's far more effective for the TOC's if they can say 'This is a peak train and super Off-peak tickets and off-peak tickets are NOT valid'.

The 1803 Paddington to Penzance is both peak and off peak depending on your destination. It is a good example of where an over distance ticket is cheaper for some destinations.
 

Rich McLean

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And that's the problem, for staff as well as punters.

I don't think anyone expects a TM to get the ticket machine out 30 seconds before departure, but I think ticket barrier staff should have access to ticket restriction information.

It doesn't need to be a ticket machine, either. All the ticket restrictions are available on the NRE website- with a short link- and even a cheap smartphone should be able to display them. I don't know if gateline staff are trusted with a Blackberry (I expect not) but surely there should be one person on a gateline with equipment to check basic things like delays or ticket restrictions.

Especially as, in this case, the ticket restriction actually IS in plain and simple language. It simply says this:


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That was the excuse, but really it was about price-gouging for those (business travellers) who had to travel at that time. On most InterCity routes now the first 2-3 off-peak trains are much busier than the peak trains. Even on London Midland I find the 1905 train home to be pretty much the busiest one of the whole evening period, and that's on a route where the majority of passengers have season tickets.

That was my suggestion at introducing a "Shoulder Peak" Ticket for this purpose. Some will continue to catch the 1905 as its cheaper than Anytime, others may wait even longer (after 2000) for an Off Peak train.
 

Bletchleyite

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That was my suggestion at introducing a "Shoulder Peak" Ticket for this purpose. Some will continue to catch the 1905 as its cheaper than Anytime, others may wait even longer (after 2000) for an Off Peak train.

One way of handling this (used I think by SWT) is for there to exist a Super Off Peak cheaper than the Off Peak but with evening restrictions, and the latter not to have them.

A further way is single-ticket pricing, so you only pay for the peak you actually use.

Neil
 

35B

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A good idea. Make the fare the average price paid between A and B for all ticket types for the last year. Depending on the split of ticket types it may not make a considerable difference. 5 hours a day people are paying anytime in most areas, 19 hours off peak, so I can't see a considerable increase and expect a heavy weighting to off peak.

Mean or median? Depending on the route and current purchasing patterns that could make a huge difference to both revenue and public perception.
 

richw

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Mean or median? Depending on the route and current purchasing patterns that could make a huge difference to both revenue and public perception.

Mean, will ensure revenue remains the same in theory.
 

35B

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And public perception is that fares rise dramatically...
 

talldave

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But fares will be simple, isn't that what everybody wants?

Perhaps, but I think the OP in this thread just wants rail industry staff to apply the rules the rail industry created. There aren't that many variations to learn - it seems the problem is the "can't be arsed" attitude or the "we've always done it this way" approach.

An analogy would be the energy market, where there used to be lots of interesting tariffs available for those people who could be bothered to put some effort in to find one that suited their usage profile best. Then the nanny state government decided that that was too complicated and imposed limits on the number of tariffs energy companies could have - so all the variations have been smoothed out and market innovation killed off.

It's the same for rail tickets - if I decide to spend time finding a novel combination of tickets offered by the rail industry, which either saves me money or offers more useful periods of validity, then I should be able to use them without being treated like a fare dodger.

But if it's too complicated for rail industry staff to learn their own products, then we'll probably end up with more nanny-state simplification, to the detriment of the more clued-up passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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An analogy would be the energy market, where there used to be lots of interesting tariffs available for those people who could be bothered to put some effort in to find one that suited their usage profile best.

That, to be fair, can also be written as follows:

"An analogy would be the energy market, where suppliers used to add lots of confusing tariffs, in the hope that only a few people could be bothered to put in some effort to find the one that suited their usage profile best".

The system was a mess, and it *wasn't* for the benefit of the majority of customers.

I don't think that's quite so true of the rail fares system (inconsistencies aren't deliberate - i.e. cock-up rather than conspiracy), but it is to an extent.

But if it's too complicated for rail industry staff to learn their own products, then we'll probably end up with more nanny-state simplification, to the detriment of the more clued-up passengers.

While I am what you might term a clued-up passenger, I don't feel I should need to work that way and am in support of genuine simplification even if that does remove what might be termed loopholes. One way to handle this for travel across London (and you won't like it!) is that a cross London through ticket - any cross London through ticket - is simply the sum of the bit to London and the bit from it, with restrictions applied to both bits.

That's sort of how cross-London seasons work - if one doesn't exist (I believe Bletchley-Slough was calculated for me, but was later put on the system) it's the sum of an outboundary Travelcard season from the origin and the destination minus the cost of a 1-6 inboundary Travelcard so you're not paying for that bit twice.

Neil
 
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Bletchleyite

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Energy's a funny one, though. Many times I've thought it would be a benefit if we all had to pre-pay it with a maximum pre-pay of say 50 quid at a time. If that was the case, it would be very visible how much we were paying, and we'd all have a far better incentive to cut back actively rather than just setting up a payment plan direct debit and forgetting about it.

Neil
 
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