Penalties for boarding trains without a ticket

[SaveECRewards]

[Mod note - split from this thread]

I think they'd have to, yes. It's the same principle at King's Cross if you're getting Grand Central or Hull Trains or using the cycle racks: just tell them what you're doing and they open the barrier for you.

No presumably they won't open the gates for you at King's Cross if you say you're travelling East Coast but if you have an Oyster season ticket (covering Z1) you could get through as they need to accept that for Great Northern stopping services.

If you did that and just jumped on a train would East Coast still happily sell you a ticket on board or would there be some sort of premium charged?

I know GNER used to only sell open (now Anytime) tickets on-board unless you boarded somewhere like Northallerton when the ticket office was closed (presumably no machines back then).

The scenario I'm thinking of is if there's some last minute peak time travel for work, you arrive at the station and not queuing for a ticket made the difference between catching the train and getting the next one. Sometimes it's great to jump on an earlier train if there happens to be one when you get to the station.

I'm assuming that as long as you can get through the barrier there's no law against boarding East Coast without a ticket as long as you purchase one on-board at the first opportunity.

Sometimes I do that with the Heathrow Express if the train is about to leave and I've not got a ticket (but they do charge a premium on-board), although thanks to their app that is now very rare.

 

[PermitToTravel]

No presumably they won't open the gates for you at King's Cross if you say you're travelling East Coast but if you have an Oyster season ticket (covering Z1) you could get through as they need to accept that for Great Northern stopping services.

If you did that and just jumped on a train would East Coast still happily sell you a ticket on board or would there be some sort of premium charged?

I know GNER used to only sell open (now Anytime) tickets on-board unless you boarded somewhere like Northallerton when the ticket office was closed (presumably no machines back then).

The scenario I'm thinking of is if there's some last minute peak time travel for work, you arrive at the station and not queuing for a ticket made the difference between catching the train and getting the next one. Sometimes it's great to jump on an earlier train if there happens to be one when you get to the station.

I'm assuming that as long as you can get through the barrier there's no law against boarding East Coast without a ticket as long as you purchase one on-board at the first opportunity.

Sometimes I do that with the Heathrow Express if the train is about to leave and I've not got a ticket (but they do charge a premium on-board), although thanks to their app that is now very rare.

You'd be sold an anytime only, and there is a law against boarding any train without a ticket where facilities existed to purchase one.

 

[SaveECRewards]

You'd be sold an anytime only, and there is a law against boarding any train without a ticket where facilities existed to purchase one.

What law is that and what is the penalty? (for a non penalty fares TOC)

 

[maniacmartin]

The two most relevant pieces of legislation are the Railway Byelaws and the more serious Regulation of Railways Act. Read about them in our Fares Guide

 

[CyrusWuff]

What law is that and what is the penalty? (for a non penalty fares TOC)

Section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which provides for a fine of up to £500 upon conviction. Alternatively, Railway Byelaw 18 has a lower burden of proof and provides for a fine of up to £1000.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is a TOC, i.e. an Open Access one, able to waive that, and do other TOCs have to co-operate e.g. by opening barriers?

It might be that an Open Access IC TOC wants to offer on-board ticket purchase as a reason to choose their service over the incumbent.

Neil

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes, if they wish. This is the case with Grand Central at Kings Cross/

 

[Merseysider]

Is a TOC, i.e. an Open Access one, able to waive that, and do other TOCs have to co-operate e.g. by opening barriers?

It might be that an Open Access IC TOC wants to offer on-board ticket purchase as a reason to choose their service over the incumbent.

Neil

Also has the advantage that ticket revenue goes to GC if sold onboard, instead of the ticket office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also has the advantage that ticket revenue goes to GC if sold onboard, instead of the ticket office.

Might this be grounds for the incumbent to object?

Neil

 

[Clip]

Might this be grounds for the incumbent to object?

Neil

No. If there was any appeal then this would've happened before they were granted an operators license.

 

[Merseysider]

Might this be grounds for the incumbent to object?

Neil

Not at all, there's nothing stopping a toc from selling a greater range of tickets onboard (than just Anytime).

 

[transmanche]

Might this be grounds for the incumbent to object?

Why so? Prior to the rebuild there were separate East Coast and FCC-operated ticket offices at Kings Cross. It's just another ticket office that happens to be on-board!

 

[Murph]

Section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which provides for a fine of up to £500 upon conviction. Alternatively, Railway Byelaw 18 has a lower burden of proof and provides for a fine of up to £1000.

Nope, you're dead wrong about that. RoRA makes no requirement to pay before boarding, only that you do pay or provide name and address.

Regulation of Railways Act 1889

5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.

(1) Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding …

So, RoRA §5(1) is irrelevant as long as you either offer payment or give name and address, and are honest about your start of journey, and not otherwise attempting to avoid payment or defraud the railway. It's a byelaws matter only.

 

[221129]

Nope, you're dead wrong about that. RoRA makes no requirement to pay before boarding, only that you do pay or provide name and address.

Regulation of Railways Act 1889



So, RoRA §5(1) is irrelevant as long as you either offer payment or give name and address, and are honest about your start of journey, and not otherwise attempting to avoid payment or defraud the railway. It's a byelaws matter only.

However walking past an opportunity to pay is usually enough to prove intent to avoid payment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I'd seek to decriminalise non-deliberate-fraud[1] cases, replacing them with a higher non-fault Penalty Fare in the manner of parking offences.

What I do think is there needs to be consistency - i.e. you get the same treatment whoever catches you, so like on SBB you *know* if you board you will get hit for CHF 100 + the fare, not just you might but you might meet the guard who will sell a ticket. That might I suppose be difficult with guards operating alone, though, who if they attempt to issue a PF may end up being assaulted.

Another option is to bring back Paytrain routes, where a given route is either "pay on the train if you like" with extra enforcement at each end, or it is "you must board with a ticket, regardless" and TVMs are provided on every station and kept maintained, with a need to use the Help Point to report the issue if it is broken (that's how Manchester Metrolink works - they will give you a reference number for the report which you need to travel, or you'll get PFed, working machine or not).

[1] i.e. simple ticketless travel with no deliberate action to mislead the railway.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However walking past an opportunity to pay is usually enough to prove intent to avoid payment.

I think "intent to avoid payment" along the lines of "I'll pay if someone asks me" is a rather different situation to deliberately falsifying tickets, dumbbelling or similar evasion where a deliberate tactic is used to avoid being caught.

I'd deal with the former "casual evasion" with a higher PF and decriminalise it. The latter needs court and imprisonment or a heavy fine on a general fraud charge.

This is sort-of what Northern are doing with their £80 "admin fees" - but I think the way that is done is underhand and it should be consistent, regulated and clear. Effectively Northern have a penalty fares scheme that isn't a Penalty Fares Scheme, which to me is silly.

Neil

 

[Murph]

However walking past an opportunity to pay is usually enough to prove intent to avoid payment.

RoRA §5(1) makes no reference to paying at first passive opportunity, only that you do pay, or provide contact details for them to chase non-payment. §5(3) covers intent to avoid payment, but that would be very difficult to argue if there's normally someone on board that would sell you a ticket and you do not try to avoid them.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

RoRA §5(1) makes no reference to paying at first passive opportunity, only that you do pay, . . . .

Hmmm. The Act doesn't, but the associated clarifications in case law certainly does.

I think "intent to avoid payment" along the lines of "I'll pay if someone asks me" is a rather different situation to deliberately falsifying tickets, dumbbelling or similar evasion where a deliberate tactic is used to avoid being caught.

You may 'think' that. But it would be very unwise advice to put into practice and utterly wrong to post on here as if it was guidance or advice.

The Courts have clarified "intent" on many occasions, and in specific reference to the RoRA, that term will capture someone who elects to "pay if someone asks me".

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may 'think' that. But it would be very unwise advice to put into practice and utterly wrong to post on here as if it was guidance or advice.

Erm, hang on a moment. Is this not a thread about what *should* be the case, deliberately separated out from the threads about what *is* the case?

Neil

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is this not a thread about what *should* be the case, deliberately separated out from the threads about what *is* the case?

Not that is apparent to me (although I do recognise that you frequently post in that aspirational tone).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not that is apparent to me (although I do recognise that you frequently post in that aspirational tone).

My interest in the rail system is very much about "how to make it better", and I think the system for handling fare evasion and the laws around it is extremely poor both in terms of how it works and in terms of how it is implemented.

I vastly prefer systems where the rules are clear and well-publicised than the inconsistent mess we have, such as LM's theoretical PF system, for instance, where your chance of a PF is minimal. Thus, I tend to prefer a system more like that of the Swiss, where you have the "eye" symbol to clearly denote a train where you MUST have a ticket before boarding (yes, I know it's all of them now, but all of them indeed carry the "eye" symbol!)

My proposals would be for a system that is clearly defined and clearly understandable by everyone. Indeed, that would be an aspiration for more of the legal system than just the railway (I prefer a more prescriptive, meritocratic legal system rather than one based on legal precedent which is essentially a collection of judges' opinions clarifying, often badly, badly-drafted laws, often in areas where the judge is barely qualified to comment), but as this forum is about railways where better to start?

Neil

 

[dysonsphere]

Sometimes I get on at Longton totall unmanned station nothing there at all (Stoke on Trent) and its only 5 mins to Stoke Station to pick up prepaid ticket, normally the ticket inspector will accept the print out for pre paid collection as proof of travel, where do you stand if you get an akward one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sometimes I get on at Longton totall unmanned station nothing there at all (Stoke on Trent) and its only 5 mins to Stoke Station to pick up prepaid ticket, normally the ticket inspector will accept the print out for pre paid collection as proof of travel, where do you stand if you get an akward one.

Prosecution, as you very explicitly are *not* allowed to do that.

Neil

 

[Murph]

Sometimes I get on at Longton totall unmanned station nothing there at all (Stoke on Trent) and its only 5 mins to Stoke Station to pick up prepaid ticket, normally the ticket inspector will accept the print out for pre paid collection as proof of travel, where do you stand if you get an akward one.

Prosecution, as you very explicitly are *not* allowed to do that.

Nope. Byelaw 18 provides for boarding without a ticket if no facilities exist. If you got an (awkward, but equally you could call them "by the book") inspector that refused to accept the print out, you would be ok if you then paid the appropriate cheapest single which would get you to the collection point without a fuss. RoRA §5(1) would be satisfied by that as well (produce a ticket, or pay the correct fare, or give name+address). Refusing to pay that single would likely land you in hot water, without much defence, if the inspector was insisting on it.

I'd certainly then ask for a refund on the single (at the ticket office) once I had collected my tickets (assuming they also covered that first leg of the journey), but wouldn't make a big deal about it if they refused. I don't know if you would be entitled to that refund by policy, but it's morally and ethically reasonable to ask for it as you have paid twice for the same thing. Alternatively, you could just make the pre-booked tickets for the journey from Stoke onwards, then buy the cheapest appropriate single or return on the train for the journey to get to/from the collection point. The latter approach might well be the more pragmatic one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd certainly then ask for a refund on the single (at the ticket office) once I had collected my tickets (assuming they also covered that first leg of the journey), but wouldn't make a big deal about it if they refused. I don't know if you would be entitled to that refund by policy, but it's morally and ethically reasonable to ask for it as you have paid twice for the same thing. Alternatively, you could just make the pre-booked tickets for the journey from Stoke onwards, then buy the cheapest appropriate single or return on the train for the journey to get to/from the collection point. The latter approach might well be the more pragmatic one.

Though possibly somewhat more expensive, as often local stations near a big station take the set of fares from the big station which means if done on the through ticket the extra bit is free.

Neil

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nope. Byelaw 18 provides for boarding without a ticket if no facilities exist.

Correct. Sorry, I was being thick. The Anytime Single is probably a worst case, as you say.

OTOH, there are TOCs (Merseyrail) who have ticket offices and TVMs which can't do ToD. As such in that case you would be liable to prosecution I believe, or at least a PF.

Neil

 

[Murph]

Though possibly somewhat more expensive, as often local stations near a big station take the set of fares from the big station which means if done on the through ticket the extra bit is free.

Fair point. The other approach, if there were no advance fares involved, could be to buy the complete journey at the first opportunity on the day (so on the first train, or arrival at Stoke). With no facilities at origin, the full range of discounts (other than advance) should be available. Just have a note with you of the specific combination of tickets that you want to buy, so that you don't fluff it under pressure.

Personally, I'd kinda hope that the printout would work most of the time, if presented with a friendly and positive attitude, but the rules seem to leave you at a disadvantage there. I'd also probably seek advice from both the on-train inspector and main ticket office on the best way to handle it while still getting the best price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or buy the first one from the guard, and the rest when you get to Stoke or even online for collection from Stoke.

I'd figure if doing more than a simple "where you change trains" split you probably don't care about reservations, so doing it on the day is no loss.

Neil