Northern rail FAILURE TO PAY

[7777]

First I have to state I completely understand northern rails policy on fair evasion
I travel from sankey to manchester, however I have to get off the train at warrington central to catch the next train to manchester as the one from sankey terminates there. The sankey for penketh ticket office falls on the opposite platform to the one I use, where there is no ticket machine.
On 12/01/15, I took the service from sankey, in which I normally buy a ticket from the station. However this morning, I was particularly late, and therefore boarded the train. I purposely sat on the carriage in which the ticket inspector was, and as he moved towards me to ask for tickets, he reached the 2 people in front of me to whom he sold a return ticket to manchester, which I required.
We approached warrington central and the inspector decided he had no time to serve me(baring in mind there is a poster on each northern rail train that states inspectors WILL OFFER to sell you a ticket). Therefore instead of completing my journey with no valid ticket, at warrington central, I went down to the ticket office to buy a return ticket from sankey to manchester where I was stopped and issued a Failure to purchase notice.
I have seen on many occasion customers from sankey being served at warrington central.

 

[Class377]

Whilst Northern's policy may make you think otherwise, you have committed an offence by not buying at Sankey. Being late is not an excuse and if there are facilities at your origin station you are legally obligated to buy a ticket before boarding.

I'm not quite sure what point it is you're trying to make other than "other people get away with it, why can't I?"

 

[northwichcat]

I take it you must have travelled on the 0650 Liverpool Lime Street to Warrington Central service as that's the only one which terminates at Warrington during hours when the ticket office at Sankey for Penketh is open.

The conductor won't have much time to sell tickets between Sankey for Penketh and Warrington Central, especially if there's still people from other stations who need to buy a ticket.

Northern's wording in timetables and on posters is misleading. They do say about having to buy Anytime tickets from the conductor if you don't use available ticketing facilities.

Warrington Central is managed by TransPennine Express who have their own ticket inspectors at stations, so presumably it was TransPennine Express inspectors who stopped you not Northern ones.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I fully understand your frustration and the fact that if other people can buy tickets on the train, why can't I?

Although this seems very unfair, if the conductor doesn't have time to sell tickets to everyone, I don't think this will work in your defence. Of course, you ran late and had every reason to expect to buy a ticket on the train but from what I understand, the railway probably hears this every day from both genuine people and those who intend to defraud.

You know very well that you passed an opportunity to pay

What is a "Failure to Purchase Notice"? Were you offered a Penalty Fare?

I'm sure the more knowledgable members will be able to answer your question soon.

 

[455driver]

OP, were there ticket purchasing facilities at the station you boarded the first train, if yes (whether on the other platform or not) and you decided not to use them for whatever reason, then you will probably be offered Northerns standard £80 'admin' fee and your name will go on the naughty list, if you have come to their attention before and your name is already on the naughty list then they might decide on another course of action which could be anything from another £80 admin fee to a day in Court and anything in between.

Other people might 'get away with it' (are you sure you havent 'got away with it' a few times ) but that is not relevant to you, plus they will probably get caught at some stage, you need to concentrate on your situation.

 

[trentside]

What is a "Failure to Purchase Notice"? Were you offered a Penalty Fare?

It would not be a penalty fare, as neither Northern or TPE operate a penalty fare scheme. A "Failure to Pay" notice from Northern usually results in an £80 charge - essentially an out of court settlement for first time offenders. In these circumstances I'm curious as to whether the OP was stopped by Northern staff or First TPE staff at Warrington? It might affect what happens next.

 

[7777]

I'm not quite sure what point it is you're trying to make other than "other people get away with it, why can't I?"

I wasn't trying to make this point, I just wanted to clear up on their piolicy's eg, why are tickets sold aboard trains if the policy is that all tickets must be bought before boarding.

In these circumstances I'm curious as to whether the OP was stopped by Northern staff or First TPE staff at Warrington? It might affect what happens next.

It was given by northern rail staff

Just another one:
I received something similar off northern rail over a year and a half ago in which letter was sent out a letter and a fine had to be paid. Obviously I will get the 'you should already know' reply which I fully understand. What is the likely prosecution to be from northern, a court summon?

 

[trentside]

I wasn't trying to make this point, I just wanted to clear up on their piolicy's eg, why are tickets sold aboard trains if the policy is that all tickets must be bought before boarding.

Ticket sales are made onboard for the benefit of passengers boarding at stations with no facilities. Where a passenger boards at a station with facilities to purchase a ticket then officially only "Anytime" tickets are available onboard with no discounts. Conductors can and do use their discretion when it comes to this policy.

It was given by northern rail staff

Just another one:
I received something similar off northern rail over a year and a half ago in which letter was sent out a letter and a fine had to be paid. Obviously I will get the 'you should already know' reply which I fully understand. What is the likely prosecution to be from northern, a court summon?

Oh dear - did you have to pay a charge of £80 for Northern to drop the matter? If so, and your name is already on the system then you may be looking at a prosecution. The £80 charge is normally only given once, to first time offenders. Unfortunately we're not going to know more until they contact you.

 

[jon0844]

I think staff on trains need to stop selling tickets to people who boarded a train at a station with ticketing facilities (unless said facilities weren't available that day for some reason).

Northern is really sending out mixed signals by saying you must buy before boarding if you have the chance, but if you don't you might get sold an anytime ticket, asked for circa £80 or potentially taken to court.

Stations without facilities at all should perhaps have permit to travel machines, but at no cost, which are time stamped and enable you to buy a ticket on board or not face problems at any revenue blocks later on.

 

[Flamingo]

I think staff on trains need to stop selling tickets to people who boarded a train at a station with ticketing facilities (unless said facilities weren't available that day for some reason).

Then they walk away without buying any ticket at all.

 

[7777]

I was sent a letter and had to pay a fine of around £30, however the failure to purchase form they have given me orders me to pay the fine online or over the phone and says the amount I owe is £2.40.
Does anyone know how long it takes for ircas to process the failure to purchase form as it has been over a week now?

Completely agree though, northern inspectors should refuse to sell to passengers boarding from stations where there are facilities, which would avoid all types of confusion like this.

 

[Greenback]

I was sent a letter and had to pay a fine of around £30, however the failure to purchase form they have given me orders me to pay the fine online or over the phone and says the amount I owe is £2.40.
Does anyone know how long it takes for ircas to process the failure to purchase form as it has been over a week now?

Completely agree though, northern inspectors should refuse to sell to passengers boarding from stations where there are facilities, which would avoid all types of confusion like this.

It's not straightforward, sadly. Ticket issuing facilities on board are really there for those who don't have an opportunity to buy before they board. Conductors on these sort of services don't have time to sell tickets to everyone if people board from stations with such facilities, as you've discovered.

Refusing to sell tickets to any such people that are encountered though, just leads to them not paying anything, as Flamingo says, and in the real world it's not possible to ensure that all of them are stopped by revenue inspectors when they get off either.

The problem is further amplified by the fact that seeing people buy tickets when they board at stations with ticket buying facilities leads to other passengers, as well as those directly involved, under the impression that this is perfectly normal and acceptable, unless they are given a very clear and assertive explanation otherwise, which there isn't always time for. Then, when they are unable to buy on board and do get found by inspection they feel hard done by.

And none of this is at all helped by Northern's wording!

 

[bb21]

If they refuse to sell omboard, how long do you think the queues will be at places like Leeds and Manchester Pic/Vic? Cue more complaints.

The guards are caught in the middle.

 

[jon0844]

Then they walk away without buying any ticket at all.

Yes, that's a problem. However, in my mind any franchise should have a requirement that no matter how small a station is, it must have

a) Ticketing facilities, or at the very least a permit to travel scheme.
b) Real time train running information

Sure, there will be a cost but I can't see how it's acceptable not to have either anywhere in the UK. You need a ticket to travel, so should be able to buy one.

If some rural village station doesn't warrant staffing or there's a risk of a machine being vandalised for the cashbox, maybe consider selling tickets at the nearest local shop, which is then given some money to remain open for extra hours if necessary.

But otherwise the wording needs to be changed to make it clear that you can only buy onboard IF you were at a station without facilities. If you do, let staff issue a penalty fare instead. Northern is clearly now using its own unofficial PF scheme anyway.

It seems to be a real mess, and it needs sorting one way or another.

 

[7777]

True, should've probably thought that through. Although in mornings there are frequently ticket inspectors at major stations Piccadilly Leeds oxford road etc, in which case northern rail inspectors could refuse to sell to passengers boarding from stations with correct facilities.
Does anyone know how long it takes ircas to process a failure to pay?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then, when they are unable to buy on board and do get found by inspection they feel hard done by.

This, at the risk of being called for OT again, is my issue.

The effect of boarding without a valid ticket having passed an opportunity to buy (with that being clearly defined) should be the same every time you do it, if you are caught doing so by any member of staff, and that effect should be clearly published including at notices at stations. You shouldn't sometimes get sold a ticket and sometimes get taken to court.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems to be a real mess, and it needs sorting one way or another.

Which was my point, but it was deleted as OT.

Neil

 

[bb21]

The problem is that if we go down the road of discussing the pros and cons of Northern's FtP system, the thread will fast go down the same avenue many others have done, while not really offering the OP a solution or a way forward.

It's a difficult balance, but for the OP's benefit, it is best if we keep this thread largely about answering the OP's questions and leave the discussion about the FtP system elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The problem is that if we go down the road of discussing the pros and cons of Northern's FtP system, the thread will fast go down the same avenue many others have done, while not really offering the OP a solution or a way forward.

It's a difficult balance, but for the OP's benefit, it is best if we keep this thread largely about answering the OP's questions and leave the discussion about the FtP system elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. It should perhaps be noted that I have only re-entered my original line of discussion as others including the OP have gone that way.

Neil

 

[Greenback]

That's right Neil, I replied to something that was explicitly brought up by the OP, but I agree with bb21 that we should not drift too far from their specific incident and that we should avoid a more general discussion in this thread.

I think there's a debate to be had about on board ticket sales and a consistency of approach across the country, but this isn't the place for it.

 

[Merseysider]

OP, what tickets did you buy that day, to complete your outward/return journeys?

the failure to purchase form they have given me orders me to pay the fine online or over the phone and says the amount I owe is £2.40.

The £2.40 "fine" is just the cost of a single from Sankey to Warrington.

According to Northern's website;

4. Failure to purchase
You have travelled from a station where ticket purchasing facilities were available and functional at the start of your journey. You have 21 days in which to pay the outstanding fare (only) shown on the notice.

Failure to pay after this stage will result in the matter being referred for prosecution.

Unless you were given anything else you haven't mentioned, I think paying the £2.40 immediately will resolve the situation.

 

[7777]

OP, what tickets did you buy that day, to complete your outward/return journeys?

I bought a return from sankey to manchester oxford road after being stopped by northern rail inspectors.

 

[Rich McLean]

Then they walk away without buying any ticket at all.

That's a good point, however, if you are made aware of a Revenue block at a particular station, if a passenger boarded at a staffed station and was travelling to the station with the block you were made aware of, you could refuse to sell them a ticket on board.

In all other cases however I agree with you

 

[7777]

What's northerns policy on second offenders, I've been told by ircas it's an admin charge of 80£, however I'm not sure if northern will involve a court case

Thanks in advance

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's northerns policy on second offenders, I've been told by ircas it's an admin charge of 80£, however I'm not sure if northern will involve a court case

Thanks in advance

Does the notice just request you to pay the fare, i.e. the £2.something? Have you paid it as requested? (I know you bought a ticket, but for the case of a couple of quid it's probably worth just coughing up anyway).

Neil

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Warrington Central is managed by TransPennine Express who have their own ticket inspectors at stations, so presumably it was TransPennine Express inspectors who stopped you not Northern ones.

TPE have recently started doing joint operations with Northern's STM staff. I have seen TPE and Northern STM staff at Dewsbury, Stalybridge and Warrington recently.

 

[yorkie]

r the failure to purchase form they have given me orders me to pay the fine online or over the phone and says the amount I owe is £2.40.

If that's what it says, then they are simply asking for £2.40, which is presumably the correct single fare?

It sounds like the reason you're perceiving this to be a fine (in fact, a fine for a railway ticketing matter can only be imposed by a court) is because you bought a return ticket later and so you consider this to be an additional charge? But Northern don't know that, so as far as they're concerned, payment for the single fare is still due.

I agree with Neil Williams and JakeF that it's perhaps best to simply pay for the single fare, as requested, as that would be easier.

In theory you could send evidence of the return ticket to them and point out you've already paid, the risk is that complicates matters and may lead to delays dealing with it, and it may end up escalating. Given that you were technically 'in the wrong' for not buying at the origin station, it may be wise not to kick up a fuss over such a small amount, and simply pay it without quibble.

 

[sarahj]

After you have been shouted and screamed at when mentioning that a ticket should have bought before boarding you tend to give up. Most will just say, oh the train was just coming in,:roll: and if they have come up to me right away, Well......

 

[Flamingo]

After you have shouted and screamed at when mentioning that a ticket should have bought before boarding you tend to give up. Most will just say, oh the train was just coming in,:roll: and if they have come up to me right away, Well......

Exactly. Although a few months ago I was shouted at by a guy travelling from Paddington who told me to just do my damn job and sell him a ticket. So I did - an Anytime single, instead of the Super-Off-Peak he wanted to buy. His attitude cost him about £70...

 

[7777]

If that's what it says, then they are simply asking for £2.40, which is presumably the correct single fare?

I'm fully willing to pay the fine, it was nearly 9 day ago and the reference number still hasn't gone through to ircas. Just worried that northern may be planning another form of prosecution.
This is my first dealing with northern so worried as to what the outcome will be

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that's what it says, then they are simply asking for £2.40, which is presumably the correct single fare?

I'm fully willing to pay the fine, it was nearly 9 day ago and the reference number still hasn't gone through to ircas. Just worried that northern may be planning another form of prosecution.
This is my first dealing with northern so worried as to what the outcome will be

It looks to me that they won't, because I think they'd be asking for your side of the story if they were looking to prosecute, whereas they're just looking for £2.50ish.

Neil