FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[455driver]

I'd get rid of it, but if a very small number of passengers want to subsidise Standard passengers by paying well over the odds for it they are quite welcome to do so.

Neil

As I dont use commuter trains I would get rid of all of them as well and just run a standard service each and every hour!

Just because you dont use it doesnt mean that other people dont!

 

[cjmillsnun]

My view is not as simplistic as that, but I certainly do take the view that *some* ticket prices should be higher, specifically on heavily overcrowded trains where the money simply isn't there to lengthen them (until Crossrail the Thames Valley commuter services are a perfect example of this). In this case that is far too simplistic, however. The issue is that fGW is heavily overcrowded. The best way to provide more seats is to have more Standard coaches rather than First. But then that makes First far more of a premium offering.

I'd get rid of it, but if a very small number of passengers want to subsidise Standard passengers by paying well over the odds for it they are quite welcome to do so.

Neil

Good god we already have some of the highest ticket prices in the world. You won't get rid of people. You have a captive market, with more trying to get on every year. Putting the prices up won't make the blindest bit of difference, except that someone's elderly aunt Dorris* won't be able to visit, because she won't be able to afford a train ticket on her pension. Those who buy first class, will buy first class. Many get advances because they are there and they can save a bob or two.

*insert relative and name here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good god we already have some of the highest ticket prices in the world. You won't get rid of people.

Peak restrictions, which were what I was talking about here, demonstrably *do* cause people to move journeys that are time-flexible into the off-peak period.

As for First Class, it should IMO not be provided at the expense of heavily overcrowded Standard. Yes, that means you, fTPE. So if fGW reduce First Class, which is what they have done, to avoid it getting full they will need to increase the price. To make this vaguely tolerable, they have made it *very* posh.

As regards Advances, some people who would buy walk-ups buy them to save a few quid, while others make journeys that would not have been made. The latter is not ideal on trains where you've got an overcrowding problem, hence my view that Advances should only be sold on trains where there are normally seats spare.

Neil

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've learned this evening that this thread is subject to messroom discussion at Paddington.

I've also learned that, rather than a senior manager reaching out to me, a senior manager is looking to have the restriction code details changed to bring it into line with others that do bar evening journeys off Paddington.

In days of yore, it was a blanket restriction applying to the HST services from Paddington in the evening peak, with the list of barred trains appearing as part of the header for the relevant ticket types in the NFM. (At one point, there were restrictions on Network Railcard discounted tickets as well, indicated in footnotes).

This is an extract from the CDR restriction section in NFM94 (September 2006):

With the move from printed NFMs to "The Manual", and subsequently to KnowledgeBase, that blanket information was moved to individual restriction codes because users wouldn't normally see the section headers.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The restrictions have also changed in terms of which slow trains they allow the use of, but of course the staff at Paddington only know about the changes detrimental to passengers.

 

[Flamingo]

Also, my ticket was a 1st Class Off Peak Day Return. It, and the corresponding Std Class ticket, are unregulated.

In the case of the 1st Class fare I'm not sure it's a historical error. Southeastern only added the FCR to DID-TON sometime after 2011. I don't have NFMs between NFM08 and NFM17 so can't check exactly when the FCR was added by Southeastern. The corresponding Std Class Off Peak Day ticket has been available since at least NFM95 (2006).

Yet, only now, after my extremely poor treatment with a valid ticket are FGW apparently addressing what they see as an anomaly or anachronism. I don't see it that way, I see it as them using whatever means they can get away with to screw passengers for more money. They'll no doubt collude, (through their cosy little anti-passenger club ATOC) with the TOCs who set fares using the codes under discussion. I just hope one of the other TOCs tells them to sling their hook. Not much hope of that though. FGW have form in this area, colluding with Chiltern to get them to change restrictions on inter-available Day tickets to/through Paddington.

With a supine regulator and no effective ombudsman this sort of anti customer collusion and price gouging will continue.

I'm curious, what was the actual journey you were making that day (as opposed to the ticket held)?

 

[didcotdean]

As an incidental point, DID-TON is by no means the cheapest available Southeastern-priced 1st off-peak day return from DID which has restriction code F3. I leave which station this is as an exercise for the reader.

 

[RJ]

As an incidental point, DID-TON is by no means the cheapest available Southeastern-priced 1st off-peak day return from DID which has restriction code F3. I leave which station this is as an exercise for the reader.

St Mary Cray, Swanley and Eynsford are the cheapest without a P7 like restriction, perhaps the OP may well be making use of the validity to Tonbridge however.

 

[didcotdean]

I didn't see anything to suggest that the ticket hadn't been used to the full extent.

 

[bnm]

I'm curious, what was the actual journey you were making that day (as opposed to the ticket held)?

Didcot to Tonbridge with the Didcot to Tonbridge ticket of course.

Origin and final destination was Bristol TM. I alighted at Didcot on the way up to take some photos. Had planned to do the same for 15-30 minutes, for some arty slow exposure night shots, on the return. Now, of course I could have bought a through ticket and used BoJ validity, but why pay for an Off Peak Return (SVR), when two CDRs, or in my case, one CDR and one FSO* (worth the extra for the comps and lounge access at Paddington - although I ended up in there far longer than I should. Still, there was the free wine...) that work out only a few quid more than the through SVR. And of course the bonus of no evening restriction off Paddington. Or not as it turned out. I was very restricted!

I had an assignment in Tonbridge that day. I can show you the receipt from that assignment if you like.

Or, how about a picture of Tonbridge station taken that day with my phone? It's a bit of a dump so I didn't get the big camera out.

*1st Class Off Peak Day Return

 

[Flamingo]

Fair enough. It's an unusual enough journey that I was struggling to think of having seen that ticket before, that's all.

I used to like Tonbridge. I learned to drive there!

 

[Starmill]

MK, I think - it's more the posting in every thread that ticket prices should be higher

Those with means, after all, need never concern themselves with scarcity...

 

[plastictaffy]

I have no idea how to look up route codes on an Avantex, I am pretty sure this facility is not available on it. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

It certainly is possible. Set the ticket up in the usual way, then where it says "Restrictions", tap it and scroll down, then you may see the restrictions. It's not exactly written in plain, idiot proof, easy to understand English, mind.

 

[Flamingo]

It gives some useful information, but does not say "B1=Not via Wherever". Some on this thread (and others) seem to think that an Avantex contains the full routing guide.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The restriction codes wouldn't say anything like "Not Via Wherever", of course, unless I'm misunderstanding your point? It should be something like "Not valid on trains booked to depart Paddington between 1600 and 1900 or Marylebone 1630 and 1830, and not valid on trains booked to arrive Slough after 0430" or whatever

 

[Wolfie]

An even easier idea than that is one ticket per train (no connections) and compulsory reservations. Then you could use airline style pricing - and by the way don't expect "off peak" pricing at 7:30pm on a Friday evening on IC, as that's really the busiest time of the week.

*Don't* give them ideas.

Neil

ATOC might like this idea...DfT, with MPs and the media queuing to give ministers hell at the mere suggestion (which would lead to some "Sir Humphrey"-types having interviews without coffee), will never, in a million years, countenance even a preliminary discussion (even less so four months from a General Election)...

 

[bnm]

I'd like to offer a bit of balance to last weeks debacle.

Today I travelled to Swansea from Bristol TM. Out on the 0716 and back at 1129. My ticket (1st Class Off Peak Return) was queried once. That member of staff learned that the restriction code 8A has no time restrictions! Remarking only that the ticket was a bit of bargain to use that early in the morning. There was no telling me it wasn't valid, no denying me travel. Just a cheery conversation.

All other FGW staff encountered today were examples of the best of FGW.

Oh, and I got to travel in the posh new 'GWR' seats in both directions. My first journeys on these. I'm really liking that new 1st Class interior. Sockets that you can actually plug any charger in as they are orientated sideways, and the alternative of power via USB sockets. Much improved lighting. Far less harsh than the old 'star going supernova' brightness. The WiFi was switched on as well on the outward journey. I got 13Mbps which is pretty impressive for on train WiFi. Although I was probably the only person using it - there was only one other person in 1st Class! I was able to stream the BBC News Channel without any buffering. One word of warning though. Don't stare at the patterned carpet for too long. You'l get a headache.

 

[Wolfie]

At least everybody eventually apologised. Look on that as a positive!

An apology does not get the OP his wasted time back. Payment of proper compensation (cash not RTVs), at say £25/hour, if it gets expensive for the company (and yes, I would make the rate punishing and forbid passing the costs on to other passengers) might just persuade FGW to get off its complacent, arrogant, collective butt and train its staff properly!

I've learned this evening that this thread is subject to messroom discussion at Paddington.

I've also learned that, rather than a senior manager reaching out to me, a senior manager is looking to have the restriction code details changed to bring it into line with others that do bar evening journeys off Paddington.

Just re-affirms my belief that train operators put customer service way down the list or priorities.

Preempt by contacting Passenger Focus asking them formally to contact DfT and oppose any such change! Oh, and of course copy your MP (who will most likely be looking for positive publicity with an election looming...) and ask him/her to take it up with DfT... If FGW want to play silly billys then make it damned hard for them. I'm sure that manager can be tied up in this for a few months - you never know it might prompt the clown to resign!

Oh and before anyone asks me what I base these views on the answer is over 30 years working in Whitehall dealing with Ministers regularly....

 

[PeterY]

I read most of the posts about fares and off peak restrictions, and probably like most people find peak time restrictions baffling.

I've never seen one or heard mentioned about a comprehensive listing with all the 2 digit codes being available on a e.g. PDF file.

The only way for find out restrictions on off peak fares is to look up each fare individually.

 

[Flamingo]

An apology does not get the OP his wasted time back. Payment of proper compensation (cash not RTVs), at say £25/hour, if it gets expensive for the company (and yes, I would make the rate punishing and forbid passing the costs on to other passengers) might just persuade FGW to get off its complacent, arrogant, collective butt and train its staff properly!

Thank you for:
1. Taking my quote out of context and
2. Boarding the Outrage Bus.
(NOT EDITED BY ME)

 

[CyrusWuff]

I read most of the posts about fares and off peak restrictions, and probably like most people find peak time restrictions baffling.

I've never seen one or heard mentioned about a comprehensive listing with all the 2 digit codes being available on a e.g. PDF file.

The last printed Fares Manuals covered 2nd January to 17th May 2008, with future editions only being available online. The ticket validities section in that final issue ran to 96 pages, just shy of 20 fewer than that for September 2006 (114 pages).

Taking the specific ticket type mentioned in this thread (i.e. First Class Off-Peak Day Return) as an example, in NFM94 (September 2006) the validity information ran to 14 pages(!) and in NFM98 (January 2008) they'd got it down to 11 pages...

 

[TheEdge]

I'm sure I remember many years ago much fanfare that the new ticket types would be so simple, Anytime for anytime travel, Off-Peak for off peak travel and Advance tickets for purchase in advance.

Hahahahahahaha, aaah. No.

 

[jon0844]

They're now ridiculously confusing.

Simple.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're now ridiculously confusing.

Simple.

The trouble is that there was little genuine harmonisation, other than a few minor elements of Advance type tickets based on VT's Virgin Value model. All they did is to rename some known ticket type names (most people knew what a Saver was, for instance) to some other less well known and slightly confusing ticket type names.

And some very useful "odd tickets out" such as the VT Weekender (valid any time for outward Friday, back Saturday/Sunday, slightly pricier than the SVR but good for spreading loads into the peak a bit) were lost.

Neil

 

[Rich McLean]

They're now ridiculously confusing.

Simple.

If they plan to manage evening restrictions, they could always add Shoulder Peak tickets (arrival as destination before 0730, after 1830 return) and change Off Peak to after 1930hrs in the evenings, just to be more difficult, and to squeeze more out of the passenger, or in some cases reduce the cost for others. It may even go to some way to even out the loading's in the morning and in the evening.

Those are day returns above or Season tickets

If that happened it would be even more complex

 

[TheEdge]

Sod it all. Only have one price, halfway between current off peak and peak fares and be done with it.

*Takes shelter from barrage of abuse*

 

[Hadders]

We need to be careful what we wish for.

If ticketing is simplified then prices will increase.

 

[Flamingo]

Sod it all. Only have one price, halfway between current off peak and peak fares and be done with it.

*Takes shelter from barrage of abuse*

Suits me!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We need to be careful what we wish for.

If ticketing is simplified then prices will increase.

Not quite. Some will go down, some will go up. However, I'm sure the people travelling from Xborough to Yborough won't mind their fares increasing if the fare from Anytown to Notown reduces and it's all to help a simplified ticketing system that everybody can understand.

 

[richw]

Sod it all. Only have one price, halfway between current off peak and peak fares and be done with it.

*Takes shelter from barrage of abuse*

We need to be careful what we wish for.

If ticketing is simplified then prices will increase.

A good idea. Make the fare the average price paid between A and B for all ticket types for the last year. Depending on the split of ticket types it may not make a considerable difference. 5 hours a day people are paying anytime in most areas, 19 hours off peak, so I can't see a considerable increase and expect a heavy weighting to off peak.

Then make a off peak only railcard eligible to all ages, and may see off peak reduce with discount for those not currently eligible for a railcard. Charge say £50-100 for the all ages railcard though so it's only worthwhile to frequent travellers. Still keep the specialist railcards at their current price though

 

[Hadders]

But would you allow Advance fares? What about TOC only fares?

On the line I travel on there are 8 hours of 'peak' travel a day and there are more people travelling at these times than at off-peak times (12 car trains full and standing in the peaks, for example). At weekends there are fares that undercut the normal off-peak fare.

If it moved to one fare I suspect that it would be closer to the Anytime fare than the off-peak.