FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[Greenback]

Given tickets have restriction codes on them, and they're so incredibly simple to look up, this is one particular problem that shouldn't be an issue at all.

Absolutely right! It shouldn't be an issue, yet we see a lot of evidence that it is, and that tells me that thing son the railway haven't got any better, support wise, than when I was in the middle of it all.

(In fact, I know it hasn't, as I'm still in touch with various people in the industry who I used to work with and who spend a lot of their time reading this very forum as they can get more accurate information from here, and faster, than they can from their own managers. These are the better staff who don't necessarily believe what Joe Bloggs tells them at the signing on point or in the messroom!)

Even if people are all of a particular belief, it simply takes one of them to say 'let's look it up then'. No need to even look silly, as you can say 'I thought it wasn't valid, but it looks like it is - good day sir' and probably won't have caused much of a delay.

Again, you are quite correct, but that seems to go against the whole ethos of the railway. In my day, even managers got things wrong, and most of the briefings I had to sit through were poor and almost always contained incorrect information. Challenging things you hear and think are wrong but to no effect soon becomes demoralising! It's tempting instead to keep quiet and just follow the official line in order to cover yourself and preserve your employment.

If this hasn't changed much either, it's also going to be a big factor in the 'I don't need to check 'cos I already know' attitude stakes.

 

[jon0844]

Challenging people who you know are wrong might not only be demoralising when it's ignored repeatedly, but also put you in an akward situation of being a trouble maker, not a 'team player' and finding yourself outcast and possibly even forced out of the industry.

That's why so many things can only get resolved these days by bypassing the usual complaints procedures and going to the press/social media.

 

[Greenback]

Challenging people who you know are wrong might not only be demoralising when it's ignored repeatedly, but also put you in an akward situation of being a trouble maker, not a 'team player' and finding yourself outcast and possibly even forced out of the industry.

That's why so many things can only get resolved these days by bypassing the usual complaints procedures and going to the press/social media.

Indeed, eventually I gave up and got out. Luckily for me I ended up in an organisation which took pride in its quality of service, training and customer satisfaction rather than always looking at the bottom line and trying to squeeze expenditure as much as it could, which was my impression of FGW.

As I often say here, I'm disappointed to see that things remain much the same, or maybe even worse, than in my day. At least in respect of training and supporting front line staff.

 

[infobleep]

I once encounter a situation at Harrow and Wealdstone where I asked a member of staff if they could ask colleague to do something. I think it was in relation to an announcement of delays. I was told they couldn't ask the other person to do this.

 

[Flamingo]

To put my tuppence-worth in (as a guard who works the 18.47 - but not on the 14th, I hasten to add. If it had been me I would have said "Jump on, no problem" - not because I would have known it was valid, but because I wouldn't have cared whether it was or not!)

I have no idea how to look up route codes on an Avantex, I am pretty sure this facility is not available on it. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

When getting a train ready for dispatch, the TM will have a lot on their mind, and a lot to do and keep an eye on. On the 18.47, one has an (unusual) stop at Twyford, which is a short platform, (and a niggle), and also, (given my experience of it the last few times I worked it) some seriously stroppy individuals who chose to travel (with folding bikes) standing in First Class, (both wheelchair space and vestibules) and are quite abusive when asked to move (5-10 minutes before departure and the front of the train empty). Given the brake-test needs doing, and the guard also has to track down the driver to confirm the short platforms down the track and actions to be taken there, they really will only be in the position to give a cursory glance at anything, and unless it is a familiar ticket (which this would not be) all we would do is have a guess. Sorry that the chap guessed wrong. I think I know who it was and if it is who I think he is a good TM, and has been doing the job for a long time. Once he had time on his hands on-board I'm sure he would have been willing to look up or listen to the explanation.

In that situation on the platform, even if I had my Avantex on me (which I probably wouldn't), then I would not have the time to start unlocking it and looking up restriction codes (which, as I said, I am pretty sure are not on it). Same goes for pulling out my Blackberry and putting my "buffer-face" on.

I don't know if I am surprised or not that it took so long to track down the restriction codes. I really don't know how the back-office at Paddington works. I do know I wouldn't bother asking the Network Rail manager!

Anyway, I'm sure that the memo is now being composed, and in the fullness of time will be on the notice-boards in Paddington.

At least everybody eventually apologised. Look on that as a positive!

 

[PermitToTravel]

If you set up and try to sell a ticket from Tonbridge to Didcot will it tell you the conditions of that ticket?

 

[trentside]

I have no idea how to look up route codes on an Avantex, I am pretty sure this facility is not available on it. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

You can with our set up. You have to put in the origin and destination, select the appropriate ticket and hit the 'OK' button. On the next screen, there's a box that says 'RESTRICT' - if you hit that it will load up the restriction data, and if you scroll to near the bottom it will give you a summary of the restriction code. This is a time consuming process, and the information is not necessarily easy to find - especially when each London Terminal has different restrictions, and it's certainly not something I'd consider doing while approaching dispatch time.

 

[bnm]

I wouldn't bother asking the Network Rail manager!

Neither would I. DSM was a FGW employee.

 

[RJ]

To put my tuppence-worth in (as a guard who works the 18.47 - but not on the 14th, I hasten to add. If it had been me I would have said "Jump on, no problem" - not because I would have known it was valid, but because I wouldn't have cared whether it was or not!)

I have no idea how to look up route codes on an Avantex, I am pretty sure this facility is not available on it. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

When getting a train ready for dispatch, the TM will have a lot on their mind, and a lot to do and keep an eye on. On the 18.47, one has an (unusual) stop at Twyford, which is a short platform, (and a niggle), and also, (given my experience of it the last few times I worked it) some seriously stroppy individuals who chose to travel (with folding bikes) standing in First Class, (both wheelchair space and vestibules) and are quite abusive when asked to move (5-10 minutes before departure and the front of the train empty). Given the brake-test needs doing, and the guard also has to track down the driver to confirm the short platforms down the track and actions to be taken there, they really will only be in the position to give a cursory glance at anything, and unless it is a familiar ticket (which this would not be) all we would do is have a guess. Sorry that the chap guessed wrong. I think I know who it was and if it is who I think he is a good TM, and has been doing the job for a long time. Once he had time on his hands on-board I'm sure he would have been willing to look up or listen to the explanation.

In that situation on the platform, even if I had my Avantex on me (which I probably wouldn't), then I would not have the time to start unlocking it and looking up restriction codes (which, as I said, I am pretty sure are not on it). Same goes for pulling out my Blackberry and putting my "buffer-face" on.

I don't know if I am surprised or not that it took so long to track down the restriction codes. I really don't know how the back-office at Paddington works. I do know I wouldn't bother asking the Network Rail manager!

Anyway, I'm sure that the memo is now being composed, and in the fullness of time will be on the notice-boards in Paddington.

At least everybody eventually apologised. Look on that as a positive!

I think the gripe with the guard in this instance is with being told that it'd be necessary to pay an excess if boarding. It essentially means that there would almost certainly have been an argument if the OP did choose to get on, something which almost everyone would be keen to avoid, even if they are right. There would have been no possible way of knowing the TM might relent once on board, because his statement was absolute.

Just trying to put forward a perspective from the passenger's shoes. I commend you making the points you have made from a TM's perspective. As someone who works with tickets also, I will never guess about time restrictions when a passenger needs to know when they can travel. The first thing I do is tell the customer that I don't know, but I'll look it up as soon as I can. Not once have I had someone who hasn't respected that, or tried to belittle me in any way at all for not already having that knowledge. Saying "I don't know" and either looking it up, or giving the benefit of the doubt if that's not practical (or passing the ticket for want of caring ) is better for all concerned than guessing. This is a case in point of how a confirmative, but wrong statement can contribute to making a bad situation for a punter worse.

It is possible to check the restriction code of a selected ticket on Avantix - the text that displays is the same as that on www.brfares.com .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can with our set up. You have to put in the origin and destination, select the appropriate ticket and hit the 'OK' button. On the next screen, there's a box that says 'RESTRICT' - if you hit that it will load up the restriction data, and if you scroll to near the bottom it will give you a summary of the restriction code. This is a time consuming process, and the information is not necessarily easy to find - especially when each London Terminal has different restrictions, and it's certainly not something I'd consider doing while approaching dispatch time.

I don't think it's critical to reach a final conclusion on the ticket's validity approaching dispatch time.

 

[Flamingo]

I know how to look up the restrictions at the individual ticket, but they can often be vauge, and do not identify the individual restriction codes, just refer to them in summary, as Trentside said. Also, this depends on the TM 1. Having the Avantex with them and 2. Having the time to look it up. On the platform waiting for departure, neither of these things are likely!

I'll try and remember to look this up tomorrow and see what it says.

TBH I would not expect the DSM to be a ticket monster. I really would not know who to call to clarify this - Ghostbusters, perhaps!

 

[causton]

I know how to look up the restrictions at the individual ticket, but they can often be vauge, and do not identify the individual restriction codes, just refer to them. Also, this depends on the TM 1. Having the Avantex with them and 2. Having the time to look it up. On the platform waiting for departure, neither of these things are likely!

I'll try and remember to look this up tomorrow and see what it says.

TBH I would not expect the DSM to be a ticket monster. I really would not know who to call to clarify this - Ghostbusters, perhaps!

Aha, always assumed you guys could check the restriction codes! Maybe not then...

And yes, I would not expect anyone working at our station outside of the ticket office staff (conductors are different, as they're not really station staff in the strictest sense of the word) to know about tickets. Obviously they have a basic understanding of the types etc, but I reckon they would not know you could get off-peak tickets with wildly different times, and there is not just one "peak" time for all tickets...

 

[PermitToTravel]

As RJ says, I don't think it needs resolving at the platform - a cheery "If you hop on I'll check for you if it's valid right now and you'll have to buy an upgrade or new ticket if not" would have solved the problem in this case and most similar ones. One I've also heard more than once, for passengers travelling from Manchester to South/East Yorkshire with tickets of as-yet-indeterminate validity, is "Hop on and I'll have a look at that; you may have to get off at Stockport". It's perhaps unworkable detraining Didcot passengers at Reading, but would help if they were off to the West Country or Wales

 

[Flamingo]

Tickets / Revenue is the part of the job that has the greatest potential for conflict, can occupy the greatest proportion of our time, and is probably has the least attention paid to it.

Once we are:
1. not delaying trains over revenue issues,
2. Not getting complaints (for any reason),
3. selling enough tickets to be in the area of the depot average
4. and the money adds up at the end of the shift,

that's all that is asked of us.

The priority is above all keep the wheels turning and the train on time!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As RJ says, I don't think it needs resolving at the platform - a cheery "If you hop on I'll check for you if it's valid right now and you'll have to buy an upgrade or new ticket if not" would have solved the problem in this case and most similar ones. One I've also heard more than once, for passengers travelling from Manchester to South/East Yorkshire with tickets of as-yet-indeterminate validity, is "Hop on and I'll have a look at that; you may have to get off at Stockport". It's perhaps unworkable detraining Didcot passengers at Reading, but would help if they were off to the West Country or Wales

That train would have had the option of detraining at Twyford
Edited to add: ( Facepalm moment)
Of course, I have just realised. As the 18.47 stopped before Reading, then off-peak tickets to Reading or Didcot should have been valid on it even if starting from Pad! I knew something had been niggling at me about the whole thing.

 

[RJ]

I know how to look up the restrictions at the individual ticket, but they can often be vauge, and do not identify the individual restriction codes, just refer to them. Also, this depends on the TM 1. Having the Avantex with them and 2. Having the time to look it up. On the platform waiting for departure, neither of these things are likely!

I'll try and remember to look this up tomorrow and see what it says.

TBH I would not expect the DSM to be a ticket monster. I really would not know who to call to clarify this - Ghostbusters, perhaps!

Good luck trying to find out! If there's one person in a TOC who is likely to know about restriction codes, it'd be whoever is responsible for setting the off peak restrictions. Probably out of hours by the time the evening peak gets into full flow though! Whilst I'm not sure it'd be appreciated if staff bombarded them with phonecalls asking restrictions like A1 to be broken down to them, perhaps their expertise could be called upon when something like this manages to stump a ticket office and revenue staff at the station.

As a customer, even if you can overcome the hurdle of getting someone to bring up the code, they can be unintelligible to read. Scrolling through long lists of destinations, multiple qualifiers and restriction codes nested within restriction codes doesn't make them at all easy for the average member of staff to follow!

 

[TheEdge]

I know how to look up the restrictions at the individual ticket, but they can often be vauge, and do not identify the individual restriction codes, just refer to them in summary, as Trentside said. Also, this depends on the TM 1. Having the Avantex with them and 2. Having the time to look it up. On the platform waiting for departure, neither of these things are likely!

I'll try and remember to look this up tomorrow and see what it says.

TBH I would not expect the DSM to be a ticket monster. I really would not know who to call to clarify this - Ghostbusters, perhaps!

I know on our version of Avantix there is an essay attached to each ticket with the restrictions occasionally hidden deep within it. Or not at all. Or with vague hints towards other restrictions. And again, our machines are sticking the restriction codes on to Avantix issued tickets.

Normally when I come across one I jump straight onto my phone and hit up the NationalRail site.

 

[AngusH]

I sympathise with the position of the staff, I suspect that the people who set the ticketing restrictions probably never work inspecting tickets and so never experience the complexity of having to get some many details absolutely right.
(I hope that I'm wrong here)

Possibly there should be random testing of the chief executive of the train operator, who gets shown a selection of tickets that are valid on his or her company's trains and has to state what the restrictions are from memory and whether they would be valid on some particular train.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Normally when I come across one I jump straight onto my phone and hit up the NationalRail site.

Another easy but possibly time consuming approach would be to check the travel times against allowed tickets. There was an attempt to stop a traveller boarding a train at Paddington documented on this forum thwarted by the evidence of a reservation for the supposedly banned train.

Isn't this going to massively blow up one day in FGW's face as negative publicity? There's still a supposedly unified rail system which allows travellers one through ticket for journeys involving multiple trains and operating companies. In these circumstances, restrictions applying to a change of train halfway through the journey are problematic and restriction setters have mostly ruled them out. Is this simple point so difficult to train staff in?

 

[bnm]

I've learned this evening that this thread is subject to messroom discussion at Paddington.

I've also learned that, rather than a senior manager reaching out to me, a senior manager is looking to have the restriction code details changed to bring it into line with others that do bar evening journeys off Paddington.

Just re-affirms my belief that train operators put customer service way down the list or priorities.

 

[bb21]

I've learned this evening that this thread is subject to messroom discussion at Paddington.

I've also learned that, rather than a senior manager reaching out to me, a senior manager is looking to have the restriction code details changed to bring it into line with others that do bar evening journeys off Paddington.

Just re-affirms my belief that train operators put customer service way down the list or priorities.

Ah, yes. How come I am not surprised. :roll:

Last time they told me that the routing on my ticket was wrong and it would be amended, after acknowledging the mistake their staff made. Well, 12 months down the line and I am still waiting for that change.

 

[RJ]

I've learned this evening that this thread is subject to messroom discussion at Paddington.

I've also learned that, rather than a senior manager reaching out to me, a senior manager is looking to have the restriction code details changed to bring it into line with others that do bar evening journeys off Paddington.

Just re-affirms my belief that train operators put customer service way down the list or priorities.

We already know that is a likely outcome as it has happened several times elsewhere on the rail network. Usually with a nice letter/email, sent through Customer Services by a senior manager, thanking one for bringing the loophole to their attention and letting one know it will be shut at the next fares change. Seeing as most of the staff were wrong, expect no action to be taken. The TOC will likely see it as a loophole needing to be corrected, not an issue with staff not understanding the restriction.

The next step is to move onto the next one. Process repeats until they get fed up with you then pay you off and grant you immunity from ticketing tribulations

Your ticket largely undercuts the Didcot to Paddington FCR (the latter allows an earlier arrival into London) and the CDR is significantly cheaper than a Didcot to Paddington SDR, which is what people wanting fast evening peak travel to Didcot would have to excess to.

There are ways of complaining properly - I'd advise against threats of legal action, because they won't take you seriously.

 

[didcotdean]

The first class off peak day return tickets on these cross London routes are priced by Southeastern at 50% premium over the equivalent standard class tickets, the kind of 'traditional' extra payment for FC.

By contrast FGW prices their more restrictive DID-PAD FC off peak day return at a massive 175% premium over standard. Maybe they should be looking at these kinds of over inflated premiums as the reason their FC has been carting around fresh air off peak.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I've also learned that, rather than a senior manager reaching out to me, a senior manager is looking to have the restriction code details changed to bring it into line with others that do bar evening journeys off Paddington.

That would involve collusion with Southeastern, wouldn't it? I meant to post this ages ago, but here's an example from Twitter which also implies FGW intend on future collusion with Southeastern to have a restriction code (4D, Tunbridge Wells to Didcot Parkway) changed in order to bar travel on certain trains out of Paddington: https://twitter.com/stefwithonef14/status/525709194897674240

Should this really be allowed? If the fare is priced by Southeastern, is it not solely down to them to decide on the restrictions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've learned this evening that this thread is subject to messroom discussion at Paddington.

I've also learned that, rather than a senior manager reaching out to me, a senior manager is looking to have the restriction code details changed to bring it into line with others that do bar evening journeys off Paddington.

If that's indeed happening, why is it that fGW local trains out of Paddington in the evening peak, which are amongst the most overcrowded in the country, still don't have evening restrictions? It's ludicrous.

As for said manager, it would at least be nice if they'd contact you and say "sorry, on this occasion the restriction did allow you travel and we apologise for messing you around. However, this was an unintentional anomaly, and we will be having it corrected for the future. Thank you for bringing it to our attention" or something.

And both Northern and LM have mid-journey restrictions, they aren't *that* rare.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By contrast FGW prices their more restrictive DID-PAD FC off peak day return at a massive 175% premium over standard. Maybe they should be looking at these kinds of over inflated premiums as the reason their FC has been carting around fresh air off peak.

Possibly, though given how overcrowded fGW is I think reducing it heavily and making it an uber-premium product was the right way to go. After all, you can seat more people in a Standard than a First Class coach.

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

If that's indeed happening, why is it that fGW local trains out of Paddington in the evening peak, which are amongst the most overcrowded in the country, still don't have evening restrictions? It's ludicrous.

As for said manager, it would at least be nice if they'd contact you and say "sorry, on this occasion the restriction did allow you travel and we apologise for messing you around. However, this was an unintentional anomaly, and we will be having it corrected for the future. Thank you for bringing it to our attention" or something.

And both Northern and LM have mid-journey restrictions, they aren't *that* rare.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Possibly, though given how overcrowded fGW is I think reducing it heavily and making it an uber-premium product was the right way to go. After all, you can seat more people in a Standard than a First Class coach.

Neil

Is there a bit of a pattern in your posts here? ....

 

[infobleep]

Is this fare in the price basket where fares cannot raise by more than X percent or does that tend not to apply for longer journeys involving multiple companies?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this fare in the price basket where fares cannot raise by more than X percent or does that tend not to apply for longer journeys involving multiple companies?

Price baskets and regulation don't apply if they can show that a particular fare is a historic error...

Same as routeing anomalies...

 

[bnm]

Also, my ticket was a 1st Class Off Peak Day Return. It, and the corresponding Std Class ticket, are unregulated.

In the case of the 1st Class fare I'm not sure it's a historical error. Southeastern only added the FCR to DID-TON sometime after 2011. I don't have NFMs between NFM08 and NFM17 so can't check exactly when the FCR was added by Southeastern. The corresponding Std Class Off Peak Day ticket has been available since at least NFM95 (2006).

Yet, only now, after my extremely poor treatment with a valid ticket are FGW apparently addressing what they see as an anomaly or anachronism. I don't see it that way, I see it as them using whatever means they can get away with to screw passengers for more money. They'll no doubt collude, (through their cosy little anti-passenger club ATOC) with the TOCs who set fares using the codes under discussion. I just hope one of the other TOCs tells them to sling their hook. Not much hope of that though. FGW have form in this area, colluding with Chiltern to get them to change restrictions on inter-available Day tickets to/through Paddington.

With a supine regulator and no effective ombudsman this sort of anti customer collusion and price gouging will continue.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Is there a bit of a pattern in your posts here? ....

I'm guessing a Reading/TV commuter.

 

[PermitToTravel]

MK, I think - it's more the posting in every thread that ticket prices should be higher

 

[Bletchleyite]

MK, I think - it's more the posting in every thread that ticket prices should be higher

My view is not as simplistic as that, but I certainly do take the view that *some* ticket prices should be higher, specifically on heavily overcrowded trains where the money simply isn't there to lengthen them (until Crossrail the Thames Valley commuter services are a perfect example of this). In this case that is far too simplistic, however. The issue is that fGW is heavily overcrowded. The best way to provide more seats is to have more Standard coaches rather than First. But then that makes First far more of a premium offering.

I'd get rid of it, but if a very small number of passengers want to subsidise Standard passengers by paying well over the odds for it they are quite welcome to do so.

Neil