EC diverting via Lincoln but not calling there

[mm333]

This has happened before and I don't get it.

EC trains are diverting via Lincoln and Spalding in February and March. So many trains going through Lincoln, but instead the city's two EC services are bustituted to Peterborough. Why can't they stop one up train and one down train as it passes through? http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...8/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GR

 

[Class 170101]

Coaches are locked out upon leaving Newark Northgate with no passengers in as all the platforms are too short at Lincoln Central.

 

[FQ]

Are these in passenger service from Peterborough to Doncaster? I assume so but I just want to check!

 

[trentside]

Are these in passenger service from Peterborough to Doncaster? I assume so but I just want to check!

Yes, they are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Coaches are locked out upon leaving Newark Northgate with no passengers in as all the platforms are too short at Lincoln Central.

It also fouls the junctions are the Pelham Street end of the station, which prevents other movements. Hence the existing East Coast services only having short dwell times at Lincoln.

 

[najaB]

It also fouls the junctions are the Pelham Street end of the station, which prevents other movements. Hence the existing East Coast services only having short dwell times at Lincoln.

If memory serves correctly, EC never intended to use HST's on the Lincoln services. That's why they had a lease (option to lease?) 180's.

 

[trentside]

If memory serves correctly, EC never intended to use HST's on the Lincoln services. That's why they had a lease (option to lease?) 180's.

Yes, and they were also planning to run shuttles to Newark North Gate with them to avoid long dwells at Lincoln if memory serves met correctly?

 

[ainsworth74]

That's why they had a lease (option to lease?) 180's.

My understanding is that they leased five but rapidly sub-leased three to Northern Rail as a temporary measure for Northern to boost their capacity (the other two just sat around not doing much). Once the Lincoln services were cut back to their current extent East Coast cancelled their lease and FGW snapped them up to boost capacity on their network.

 

[trentside]

For the rare track enthusiasts, it's worth noting that the diversions are using the Sleaford avoiding lines in both directions.

 

[Bevan Price]

Coaches are locked out upon leaving Newark Northgate with no passengers in as all the platforms are too short at Lincoln Central.

How did Lincoln Central manage when they had loco hauled services, such as Yarmouth - Newcastle, commonly loco plus 11 or 12 coaches ? Have they changed the layout since the 1980s ? (Not been there for many years - don't really think I would enjoy Pacers each way from Sheffield.)

 

[trentside]

How did Lincoln Central manage when they had loco hauled services, such as Yarmouth - Newcastle, commonly loco plus 11 or 12 coaches ? Have they changed the layout since the 1980s ? (Not been there for many years - don't really think I would enjoy Pacers each way from Sheffield.)

I can't answer your first question, but I know a few people I can ask.

As for layout changes, the only significant change was to take two bay platforms out (original 1 & 2) - the area being used for a car park, and the removal of a siding at the High Street end of the station. The re-signalling in 2009 added a few new crossovers and more flexible signalling, so you can now depart in either direction from all the through platforms. As far as I know the platform lengths haven't been altered.

 

[louis97]

Coaches are locked out upon leaving Newark Northgate with no passengers in as all the platforms are too short at Lincoln Central.

Surely the same applies as to when EMT HSTs go to Lincoln, and all doors are released. (Assuming East Coast don't have SDO, I can't remember if they do)

Can someone confirm?

 

[455driver]

How did Lincoln Central manage when they had loco hauled services, such as Yarmouth - Newcastle, commonly loco plus 11 or 12 coaches ? Have they changed the layout since the 1980s ? (Not been there for many years - don't really think I would enjoy Pacers each way from Sheffield.)

Because back then people were sensible enough not to open a door if there wasnt a platform outside, now they are so stupid they would stick their head out the window, open the door, fall out and sue the train company!

 

[Searle]

Coaches are locked out upon leaving Newark Northgate with no passengers in as all the platforms are too short at Lincoln Central.

Surely the same applies as to when EMT HSTs go to Lincoln, and all doors are released. (Assuming East Coast don't have SDO, I can't remember if they do)

Can someone confirm?

The only time EMT run an HST to Lincoln is for the Christmas Market specials; the daily service is usually a 5 car Meridian. I'd imagine all doors are released, but the guard would make sure that no one is about to get off not onto a platform before arrival.

 

[dk1]

Because back then people were sensible enough not to open a door if there wasnt a platform outside, now they are so stupid they would stick their head out the window, open the door, fall out and sue the train company!

Exactly mate. It happened all over the UK. If you tried to get out or fell from a carriage that wasn't adjacent to a platform you where an idiot. Today it's all cotton wool.

 

[edwin_m]

Exactly mate. It happened all over the UK. If you tried to get out or fell from a carriage that wasn't adjacent to a platform you where an idiot. Today it's all cotton wool.

I think lots of non-idiots probably did open a door when not at a platform, but instead of complaining and threatening to sue they just walked along the ballast and up the ramp.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How did Lincoln Central manage when they had loco hauled services, such as Yarmouth - Newcastle, commonly loco plus 11 or 12 coaches ? Have they changed the layout since the 1980s ? (Not been there for many years - don't really think I would enjoy Pacers each way from Sheffield.)

Wouldn't they just have drawn up twice, and stuff the level crossing (which probably had much less traffic then anyway).

 

[AndyW33]

The only time EMT run an HST to Lincoln is for the Christmas Market specials; the daily service is usually a 5 car Meridian. I'd imagine all doors are released, but the guard would make sure that no one is about to get off not onto a platform before arrival.

I travelled on a Christmas Market HST to Lincoln last month. There were announcements on board about which coaches would be platformed, and extra on-train and platform staff. There was a full ticket check between Nottingham and Lincoln so plenty of opportunity to individually warn people sitting in the front coaches they would need to move back. The HST used Platform 3, with the rear power car just clear of the fouling point for the through road, so fully clear of the level crossing. There were two loco hauled charters as well, presumably these used on-board stewards to prevent people exiting onto the track.
I imagine the EC diversions used the through (non platform) roads. There can be quite long periods when through platforms 3/4/5 are occupied by scheduled services.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Because back then people were sensible enough not to open a door if there wasnt a platform outside, now they are so stupid they would stick their head out the window, open the door, fall out and sue the train company!

It's less to do with the intellect of people and more to do with the Access to Justice act of 1999 (passed into law in 2000) which basically opened up "no win no fee" civil cases to the masses and changed the culture of this country overnight. TOCs are right to be scared of litigation, it's became a huge thing in the past fifteen years.

 

[louis97]

The only time EMT run an HST to Lincoln is for the Christmas Market specials; the daily service is usually a 5 car Meridian. I'd imagine all doors are released, but the guard would make sure that no one is about to get off not onto a platform before arrival.

I know - that is what I was referring too. Surely the same rules apply to all HSTs - irrelevant as to who it is operated by or how often it runs. So I wanted to confirm that surely it was the same process of releasing all doors on the East Coast HST.

 

[najaB]

I know - that is what I was referring too. Surely the same rules apply to all HSTs - irrelevant as to who it is operated by or how often it runs. So I wanted to confirm that surely it was the same process of releasing all doors on the East Coast HST.

I've caught the EC service to Lincoln a couple of times. I don't think any doors were actually locked out of use, but the guard announced a couple of times that only the rearmost carriages would be on the platform, and to move down. If they were actually out of use, then any first-class passengers would have to slum it with the commoners between Newark Northgate and Lincoln.

 

[Lincoln]

The differences in risk assessments between operators will probably largely depend upon the type of service provided.

East Coast serve Lincoln on a regular basis and also have fewer passengers between Newark and Lincoln so it will have probably made sense for them to ensure the carriages that aren't accommodated on the platform are cleared of passengers by the train crew before arrival.

For the East Midlands services during the Christmas Market I would say that they would be very busy, and so the train crew would have been told to clearly inform the passengers in the unplatformed coaches that they will need to walk down the train on arrival at Lincoln.

If the East Coast principal was applied to the EMT services, then there would be little point in running them as they're obviously intended to alleviate overcrowding on the route. So it's good to see different solutions to risk assessments that must have been carried out prior are being used.

This is from observations from travelling on both these services and seem to work effectively.

 

[David Burrows]

The situation with HSTs and short platforms is now particularly daft. When trains had inside door handles people might open a door then step out into space, particularly in the dark. As has been said before, they would then think, how silly of me, I should have looked.
Now they have to open the window and lean out to push the door handle fully down. By this time one might think that they would notice that they are not in a platform, particularly if announcements had been made.

 

[455driver]

The situation with HSTs and short platforms is now particularly daft. When trains had inside door handles people might open a door then step out into space, particularly in the dark. As has been said before, they would then think, how silly of me, I should have looked.
Now they have to open the window and lean out to push the door handle fully down. By this time one might think that they would notice that they are not in a platform, particularly if announcements had been made.

Stop trying to answer questions allowing the passengers to have common sense, unfortunately some of them dont and when they fall out of the train because the door wasnt locked shut, they will sue the TOC and win.

 

[najaB]

Stop trying to answer questions allowing the passengers to have common sense, unfortunately some of them dont and when they fall out of the train because the door wasnt locked shut, they will sue the TOC and win.

I'm sure they will sue, I'm not so sure that they will win. The TOC may settle out of court because it's easier, but if it went to court - seeing as the on-train staff will have said not to attempt to open the doors in that coach, and the instructions printed above the door tell them to check before opening the door, and they have eyes and have to look out of the window to reach the handle, even the elfin safety obsessed will likely say "Sorry mate, that was your own fault".

 

[455driver]

I'm sure they will sue, I'm not so sure that they will win. The TOC may settle out of court because it's easier, but if it went to court - seeing as the on-train staff will have said not to attempt to open the doors in that coach, and the instructions printed above the door tell them to check before opening the door, and they have eyes and have to look out of the window to reach the handle, even the elfin safety obsessed will likely say "Sorry mate, that was your own fault".

You are rather more trusting in our legal system than I am!
I am sure some smart a55 lawyer could turn it around that its the railways fault because the door was able to be opened by the terminally stupid passenger!

 

[Crossover]

The only time EMT run an HST to Lincoln is for the Christmas Market specials; the daily service is usually a 5 car Meridian. I'd imagine all doors are released, but the guard would make sure that no one is about to get off not onto a platform before arrival.

I have been on an EMT HST to Market Harborough before - the platforms there are also too short, on the Up, at least. In that case the TM announced that some coaches wouldn't be platformed and she worked the doors from the rearmost platformed door to check no-one tried to alight further back

 

[MichaelAMW]

I have been on an EMT HST to Market Harborough before - the platforms there are also too short, on the Up, at least. In that case the TM announced that some coaches wouldn't be platformed and she worked the doors from the rearmost platformed door to check no-one tried to alight further back

Indeed - EMT stop HSTs at short platforms, day in & day out. Seems to work OK.

 

[455driver]

Indeed - EMT stop HSTs at short platforms, day in & day out. Seems to work OK.

Grand Father rights!

 

[edwin_m]

Grand Father rights!

Indeed. HSTs can still stop at the platforms they stopped at since before whenever this rule came into effect, but not at any they didn't. So HSTs couldn't stop at Luton Airport Parkway until the platforms were lengthened for 12-car Thameslink formations.

 

[DarloRich]

The situation with HSTs and short platforms is now particularly daft. When trains had inside door handles people might open a door then step out into space, particularly in the dark. As has been said before, they would then think, how silly of me, I should have looked.
Now they have to open the window and lean out to push the door handle fully down. By this time one might think that they would notice that they are not in a platform, particularly if announcements had been made.

The TOC has a duty of care towards their passengers that perhaps wasn’t as clearly defined in the past. If someone falls out of a train they will win the case, especially if they were able to open the door and step out to the open line expecting to find a platform there.

 

[louis97]

So HSTs couldn't stop at Luton Airport Parkway until the platforms were lengthened for 12-car Thameslink formations.

Do you know if EMT have special permission to call at East Midlands Parkway on the shorter slow line platforms with HSTs? I know they do fairly often when there is engineering work.