Old Altered Train Ticket Found by Officer

[Merseysider]

C/ admit it because they are under oath and lying is not a good thing to do in Court!

I'm gonna go with C

 

[StephenWasHere]

I've been reading into what happens next after submitting my explanation of events: it takes about 2-3 weeks to receive a response from NR.

Then, they can either: accept to settle and it goes from there. Or, I'll receive a court summons to the Magistrates court. I'm going to find out today if it's possible whether I can submit evidence alongside my explanation to further prove that this was an isolated event, and that there is minimal chance of a reoffending.

 

[PermitToTravel]

You'd be permitted to, yes.

 

[Merseysider]

I've been reading into what happens next after submitting my explanation of events: it takes about 2-3 weeks to receive a response from NR.

Then, they can either: accept to settle and it goes from there. Or, I'll receive a court summons to the Magistrates court. I'm going to find out today if it's possible whether I can submit evidence alongside my explanation to further prove that this was an isolated event, and that there is minimal chance of a reoffending.

That's pretty much the gist of it.

But if you don't hear back within a few weeks of writing to them, they may still be poring over your case, and don't assume they've just gone straight to court.

Make sure to send it recorded/signed for, or if money is tight you can also email their prosecutions office. Last time I checked it was Prosecutions@ITAL-Uk.com but another forum member may be able to confirm whether this is still the correct email address.

 

[StephenWasHere]

JakeF - Right, OK. Thanks for that
I'm in the middle of writing the explanation out, and trying to figure out the exact dates that I used this altered ticket. May take a while.

Thanks to everyone who has responded and offered me advice, it's much appreciated! Shall update accordingly

 

[Tibbs]

My comment wasnt aimed at you but at the person offering the 'advice' which I considered ill conceived and very dangerous for you to take.
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Lets assume the altered ticket was used for a couple of months,

So the OP is in Court for a Byelaw offence (altering the ticket) and under oath is asked 'did you use the altered ticket', what is the answer?
Do they-
A/ lie and say no, at which point the TOC solicitor offers evidence of the use of the altered ticket
B/ lie and get away with it
C/ admit it because they are under oath and lying is not a good thing to do in Court!

D - plead guilty to the byelaw 20 and take your medicine (together with a lack of Criminal Record) and not have to answer any questions about usage which could get you into hotter water, and a criminal record to boot.

You should try not to fail the attitude test, but equally not volunteer information you don't know they already have. It's a tightrope, but that's the situation you're in. There's a difference between being co-operative and hanging yourself out to dry, a nuance which some have missed.

 

[flinty1]

The station in question is monitored by cctv, every angle in the booking hall is covered, I would presume they have already looked at the incident in question, and could of also looked on previous days to see if any attempt to purchase tickets were made,( especially as you say the ticket was altered a few months ago) I would advise to very honest in your reply to them as if there are any discrepancies in your version of the incident they will show on video, all monthly and annual season tickets are on their data base so they will know exactly the last time you purchased one

 

[StephenWasHere]

D - plead guilty to the byelaw 20 and take your medicine (together with a lack of Criminal Record) and not have to answer any questions about usage which could get you into hotter water, and a criminal record to boot.

You should try not to fail the attitude test, but equally not volunteer information you don't know they already have. It's a tightrope, but that's the situation you're in. There's a difference between being co-operative and hanging yourself out to dry, a nuance which some have missed.

So Tibbs, what you're saying is: I should admit to possessing the altered ticket, but not mention using it unless I've been explicitly asked (which I haven't in the letter I've received from Northern Rail)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So Tibbs, what you're saying is: I should admit to possessing the altered ticket, but not mention using it unless I've been explicitly asked (which I haven't in the letter I've received from Northern Rail)

Hmmm. I know exactly how I would interpret reading such a reply!
Its silence on the very detail which is at the heart of the matter would strongly indicate that there is some real substance to that detail, and I wouldn't be letting my enquiries stop at that point.

Look at it from the point of view of the investigating officer . . . . .
You have an admission that the passenger was a regular traveller on the network, and that they carried a forged ticket which falsely purported to authorise travel a year beyond its period of validity, but the passenger hasn't told us how often they used it, so we'll just . . . . .
1. close the file? [ I don't think so. ]
2. Probe further (by interviewing the passenger and rail staff) ? [ Likely. ]
3. Prosecute the Fraud with a presumed value of losses based on probabilities? [ Most likely. ]

C/ admit it . . . . !

Yes!

If I were the TOC, I’d be assuming you had altered your season ticket for a whole extra year (or possibly take weekly tickets and extended them to monthly).

and Yes again!

 

[Tibbs]

So Tibbs, what you're saying is: I should admit to possessing the altered ticket, but not mention using it unless I've been explicitly asked (which I haven't in the letter I've received from Northern Rail)

If I were in your position, I would answer any questions when asked but not volunteer anything outside of that.

And ask for a settlement as soon and as well as possible. Grovelling in this situation may unfortunately be wise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmmm. I know exactly how I would interpret reading such a reply!
Its silence on the very detail which is at the heart of the matter would strongly indicate that there is some real substance to that detail, and I wouldn't be letting my enquiries stop at that point.

Look at it from the point of view of the investigating officer . . . . .
You have an admission that the passenger was a regular traveller on the network, and that they carried a forged ticket which falsely purported to authorise travel a year beyond its period of validity, but the passenger hasn't told us how often they used it, so we'll just . . . . .
1. close the file? [ I don't think so. ]
2. Probe further (by interviewing the passenger and rail staff) ? [ Likely. ]
3. Prosecute the Fraud with a presumed value of losses based on probabilities? [ Most likely. ]

Yes!

and Yes again!

What you think doesn't really matter. What matters is what can be proven. The Byelaw 20 is done and dusted; they have the altered ticekt and they have evidence that it's in your possession. They may well go for that.

What isn't done is the possibility of being done for using the ticket, which has the potential to be way more serious. That's the bit you need to be careful not to incrimminate yourself with.

 

[455driver]

What you think doesn't really matter. What matters is what can be proven. The Byelaw 20 is done and dusted; they have the altered ticekt and they have evidence that it's in your possession. They may well go for that.

What isn't done is the possibility of being done for using the ticket, which has the potential to be way more serious. That's the bit you need to be careful not to incriminate yourself with.

They dont have to prove anything, all they need is to prove beyond reasonable doubt!

Why would anyone alter a season ticket and then not use it?
When asked did they alter it they will answer 'yes'.
When asked if they used it they will answer 'no comment'.

If you were the Judge what would you think?

 

[Merseysider]

They dont have to prove anything, all they need is to prove beyond reasonable doubt!

Why would anyone alter a season ticket and then not use it?
When asked did they alter it they will answer 'yes'.
When asked if they used it they will answer 'no comment'.

If you were the Judge what would you think?

Perhaps the ones advocating the OP to remain silent regarding the use of the altered ticket would be happy to follow their own advice were it their own career on the line? I thought not. I seriously cannot believe the stupidity present in some of these comments.

People can and do get convicted of perjury if they fail to tell "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

 

[Tibbs]

Perhaps the ones advocating the OP to remain silent regarding the use of the altered ticket would be happy to follow their own advice were it their own career on the line? I thought not. I seriously cannot believe the stupidity present in some of these comments.

People can and do get convicted of perjury if they fail to tell "the full truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

I think we're talking about 2 different things here.

I'm not talking about behaviour in court. Lying in court is a stupid thing to do and the chances of you being caught out is high and the consequences are severe as you've laid out.

I'm talking about dealing with the TOC. As far as I'm aware, whilst it's very unwise to lie in a matter that may have consequences for a criminal record, it's not a specific crime until you're under oath.

Likewise, I'm absolutely not advocating lying, I'm saying don't volunteer information that will make your situation worse.

 

[Merseysider]

I think we're talking about 2 different things here.

I'm not talking about behaviour in court. Lying in court is a stupid thing to do and the chances of you being caught out is high and the consequences are severe as you've laid out.

I'm talking about dealing with the TOC. As far as I'm aware, whilst it's very unwise to lie in a matter that may have consequences for a criminal record, it's not a specific crime until you're under oath.

Likewise, I'm absolutely not advocating lying, I'm saying don't volunteer information that will make your situation worse.

No, I think we're talking about exactly the same thing here - the omission of information in an attempt to lessen the blow.

You must have one hell of a ++++ed up moral compass to think it's okay to lie out of court but not in court! The OP has already said he used the ticket a couple of times - why do you think it's acceptable for him to try and brush this under the carpet?

What the OP says in his reply will be taken into account when/if it goes to court. Bloody hell :roll:

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's also not impossible that this forum thread will be given as evidence!

 

[najaB]

Likewise, I'm absolutely not advocating lying, I'm saying don't volunteer information that will make your situation worse.

But how does the OP manage this without making said omission obvious? When asked for his version of events just say "I altered the ticket"? The fact that he doesn't say if he used it or not just screams out that there's more to the story.

 

[Tibbs]

No, I think we're talking about exactly the same thing here - the omission of information in an attempt to lessen the blow.

You must have one hell of a ++++ed up moral compass to think it's okay to lie out of court but not in court! The OP has already said he used the ticket a couple of times - why do you think it's acceptable for him to try and brush this under the carpet?

What the OP says in his reply will be taken into account when/if it goes to court. Bloody hell :roll:

What's done is done. what's important to the OP now is to minimise the fallout. You can sit on your high horse all you like, but I'm more prepared to scrabble around in the dirt of the real world.

As to my moral compass - it points just fine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But how does the OP manage this without making said omission obvious? When asked for his version of events just say "I altered the ticket"? The fact that he doesn't say if he used it or not just screams out that there's more to the story.

I'm pretty sure it's screaming that already.

Is having an altered ticket as serious a altering it? If so then there's no real harm in saying that. Freely admitting to using the ticket is another matter. Whether he used the ticket or not in the past doesn't fall under his version of events for the day.

It's why there's a specific offence of going out equipped for burglary. Catch someone in the middle of the night with a crowbar and a ladder, and chances are they aren't cleaning windows. Before the law, there wasn't much you could do unless you found some actually committing burglary.

 

[Merseysider]

I have spoken privately to the OP regarding the matter. To deal with some of the speculation surrounding this, he is able to account for every day in 2014 through old tickets and bank statements, except one.

The OP is also being completely honest in his reply to Northern, which despite the foolishness of the action itself, is to be commended.

It is entirely up to StephenWasHere whether he lets us know the outcome of this, but in the meantime I think that's that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I have spoken privately to the OP regarding the matter. To deal with some of the speculation surrounding this, he is able to account for every day in 2014 through old tickets and bank statements, except one.

The OP is also being completely honest in his reply to Northern, which despite the foolishness of the action itself, is to be commended.

It is entirely up to StephenWasHere whether he lets us know the outcome of this, but in the meantime I think that's that.

In that case, I think he's taking the absolute correct course of action.