I feel the same way, but I'd have to assess the situation that I found myself in and make a decision at that time, based on the circumstances of the case, and my financial position!
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Accussed of Altering Carnet Ticket
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I feel the same way, but I'd have to assess the situation that I found myself in and make a decision at that time, based on the circumstances of the case, and my financial position!
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DaveNewcastle
Established Member
The Lawrence family in Mildenhall have done just that in their dispute with a neighbouring business. The hold firm to the principles they believe to be 'right'. They have excellent legal representation and, over the years, they have pursued it as far as they can (even twice to the Supreme Court!).
Their costs now exceed £1mil.
I can't imagine the cost to their enjoyment of their lives.
If I was in their position, I wouldn't. There are better things to be doing while we can.
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SickyNicky
Verified Rep - FastJP
Yes, well, I can't imagine it getting to that without some interest from the press, which I imagine would bring a quick end to the matter. But I agree with you - I wouldn't want it to go to such extremes, even if I could afford it.
Edit: Well, I've just looked at that case, and I can see the point of view of the stadium - after all the Lawrences did choose to move there. However, a false accusation of altering a ticket is rather more black and white, at least to me.
Edit2: Hey! I've been there! To the stadium in West Row. Went to a 25th Birthday party there about 15 years ago. I recall that the power failed half way through and it was a blessed relief to be able to hear people without the disco, and be able to talk to them! (Sorry Fenlass, if you're reading this!)
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Compared with, having briefly Googled it, moving elsewhere.
If you move next to a race track you can expect it to be noisy.
Neil
NeilWatson
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Especially a racetrack immediately adjacent to a huge USAF air base....
The noise of the air traffic far outweighs any noise from the stadium.
Well thank god our legal system isnt set up to be so ridiculous
Im not so sure I am in the minority, I know many people who would fight their case if it was an injustice and the TOC were wrong - in fact with the settlement offer being so low I would be even more determined to fight it.
Hopefully those people would listen to sense and fight the fight that is worth fighting. If a no-fault settlement is offered for £100, why bother spending £150 just to have your day in court? As has been pointed out above, there is no guarantee that the judgement will go in your favour. Even if it does go in your favour, if you aren't awarded costs then you would be £50 worse off than if you took the settlement.
Yeah, this isn't South Africa.
Oh so now we are certain it was a no fault settlement then. Well that makes it ok doesnt it.:roll:
Its not the money that is the issue here it is the principal of it and if the judgement went against me then so be it. But I very much doubt it would if I was as adamant as the OP was.
I don't know that it in this case it was a no-fault settlement, that's why I used the word 'if'. Your post didn't make it clear that you were speaking specifically of the OP's case.
I wouldn't accept, nor would I advise anyone else to, a settlement that left me at fault if I hadn't broken any statutes.
Flamingo
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I can't remember reading many (indeed none spring to mind) cases on here where an out-of-court settlement was offered by a TOC (and accepted) where the OP actually had a realistic defence (as opposed to facile argument and blustered indignation from either them or the usual suspects on here).
Indeed, the vast majority are desperate for an out-of-court settlement, and relieved to be offered one.
Which is kind of strange, as from the tone of numerous posters (see above) one would expect the forum to have hundreds of cases where prosecution was threatened for the most tenuous of reasons (as opposed to a form letter asking the passenger for their side of the story).
Can somebody please link to the threads where the OP had a solid defence and an out-of-court settlement was offered (or indeed asked for)?
Indeed, the vast majority are desperate for an out-of-court settlement, and relieved to be offered one.
Which is kind of strange, as from the tone of numerous posters (see above) one would expect the forum to have hundreds of cases where prosecution was threatened for the most tenuous of reasons (as opposed to a form letter asking the passenger for their side of the story).
Can somebody please link to the threads where the OP had a solid defence and an out-of-court settlement was offered (or indeed asked for)?
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Flamingo
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That's a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If that's actually true, it's very poor. There really should be a proper means of dating these if we are to have them, i.e. a compostage machine, where there can be no question of whether it was altered or not.
Having read about issues with them on here I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole.
Neil
It doesn't surprise me one bit that pens aren't given out. I was never given one and doubt many people are. I bet nobody is asked if they want one either, so how would they know. The posters weren't up for long that even said you could get one.
Of course in this conversation, the one thing we don't know is what the ticket looked like and what was alleged. It may well have been modified for all we know!
Of course in this conversation, the one thing we don't know is what the ticket looked like and what was alleged. It may well have been modified for all we know!
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The whole carnet system, as stands, is a total embarrassment. How can consumers have confidence in the product when ticket offices deny the special pens exist (but CS say they dotruly, the left arm not knowing what the right arm is doing), and where there is a significant chance of being accused of fraud having used the ticket correctly?
I would be interested to read about any cases like this which have gone to court (i.e. where the passenger denies they have altered the ticket.)
I would be interested to read about any cases like this which have gone to court (i.e. where the passenger denies they have altered the ticket.)
If GTR, like FCC before it, ever intended to go to court and prove the ticket was tampered with then I believe it would require a proper forensic investigation, including the ticket being taken and handled with extreme care. Bagged up and sealed in the first place.
Once an RPI takes the ticket and tries to demonstrate how the ticket was tampered with, perhaps by rubbing his/her finger over it, or picking out where the paper has been damaged, all evidence is probably destroyed in terms of what would be required in court.
Therefore I'd say it would be hard to bring something to court, or get a successful prosecution (assuming someone didn't just plead guilty) and it will rely solely on threats of prosecution to secure a nice out of court settlement, which seems favourable anyway.
I do think the carnet tickets should be axed, or replaced with the scratch cards that used to be given out for promotions/compensation/season ticket holders. Once marked, you seal them with the plastic cover and that's it.
Once an RPI takes the ticket and tries to demonstrate how the ticket was tampered with, perhaps by rubbing his/her finger over it, or picking out where the paper has been damaged, all evidence is probably destroyed in terms of what would be required in court.
Therefore I'd say it would be hard to bring something to court, or get a successful prosecution (assuming someone didn't just plead guilty) and it will rely solely on threats of prosecution to secure a nice out of court settlement, which seems favourable anyway.
I do think the carnet tickets should be axed, or replaced with the scratch cards that used to be given out for promotions/compensation/season ticket holders. Once marked, you seal them with the plastic cover and that's it.
button_boxer
Established Member
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This is likely to become a moot point once GTR finish rolling out The Key across their network and can offer carnet-type products on a smartcard.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, but these tickets have been around for some time and I expect a lot of people have had problems who didn't join this forum or go on Twitter.
It's a nightmare for innocent passengers, who at best ruin a ticket trying to write on the date and then have to bin it (rather than risk being accused of fraud). It's also, presumably, a nightmare for the TOC considering it isn't that hard to tamper with a ticket if you have the right pen and know what you're doing. In other words, being careful how you first write on the date with a view to being able to change it later.
Those who don't use gates will perhaps stand out, but that's still not proof that someone is avoiding using the magstrip - and it doesn't exactly help that some tickets wouldn't work the gates because the gate software needed updating.
It is a total and utter mess, and that Twitter conversation just shows what a farce it is.
mattdickinson
Member
CharlieSpotted
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A "special pen".
In 2015.
:roll:
In 2015.
:roll:
I always find it strange why this is such a problem on GN/FCC. On a TOC I used to work for we never came across as near as many problems with carnets - are the RPIs that inept over on GN? or just over zealous?
But yeah as a prduct it really should be removed by now.
But yeah as a prduct it really should be removed by now.
I don't see the product as being at fault. A discount for buying multiple tickets. It's the method of issue that is at fault.
GTR bang on and on about the pens being available at point of issue. What about when you buy Carnet online?
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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I think they may be missing a trick here.
Don't give these pens away for free as that gives the company no incentive to have these pens in place, plus the resultant bad PR due to non-availability. Instead sell them at the ticket office for £2 and allow ticket office staff to keep the profit. That way they can rid themselves of the expectation of having these pens provided for free and the subsequent fallout from not having these pens in stock, and they will be a nice little earner which will give staff some incentive to have them available for sale at all times.
Don't give these pens away for free as that gives the company no incentive to have these pens in place, plus the resultant bad PR due to non-availability. Instead sell them at the ticket office for £2 and allow ticket office staff to keep the profit. That way they can rid themselves of the expectation of having these pens provided for free and the subsequent fallout from not having these pens in stock, and they will be a nice little earner which will give staff some incentive to have them available for sale at all times.
Again, how does one get their pen if they buy Carnet online? Will TVMs have to be adjusted to dispense Sharpies? :roll:
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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I don't know. I was just saying that they can absolve themselves of the responsibility of providing the pens and transfer the responsibility back to the passenger. That "promise" seems more trouble than it's worth.
Not going to be the most popular move granted but it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but in fact might improve the availability of these pens in a funny way.
I meant the write on ticket aspect. Just use scratchcards or something similar to the boxes or even just have the date box on the back!!
Saying that though - how big is the problem as theres only a small amount of cases that we get on here and I still don't see anything in the press about it being such a sscandal so maybe its not so big a problem.
I think the scratchcard idea would be best, or have people buy them online and print off from a TVM on demand so they're printed with the date on them.
You'd lose the benefit of just turning up and travelling without queuing because you had them with you already, so maybe that idea wouldn't be popular. Or maybe it would given the fact you become a bag of nerves trying to write the date on without messing it up!!
You'd lose the benefit of just turning up and travelling without queuing because you had them with you already, so maybe that idea wouldn't be popular. Or maybe it would given the fact you become a bag of nerves trying to write the date on without messing it up!!
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