Bit peeved

[Morgans123]

Evening all,

I've had a scan of the section and found a few relevant threads but just wanted your take on my specific incident.

If I describe the scene a little,

Jumped on the Aviva train at Cwmbran to head to Cardiff central. Arrived at Cardiff central to where I went up to the ticket both and asked for a return to newport as this was where my friend was picking me up. To then head home in the car to Chepstow. At this point next to the ticket lady was a gentleman who asked how I got through the ticket barrier at newport to which I replied I did not I got on the train at Cwmbran but would like to get back to newport. Gentle was quite rude and I made an honest mistake, not as if I was not willing to pay. Anyway I've not had what I presume to be an initial letter from "Transport investigations" I'm guessing they must send a generic letter threatening court etc.

But this sort on thing bugs me! And to be read by right at the train station unsettled me!

I've drafted a letter which I intended to send tomorrow admitting my fault but explaining the above with the situation in my honest mistake.

Is it worth while me adding to my letter about an out of court settlement?

Thanks in advance

 

[bb21]

A few questions which should help us establish more clearly where you stand.

Jumped on the Aviva train at Cwmbran to head to Cardiff central. Arrived at Cardiff central to where I went up to the ticket both and asked for a return to newport as this was where my friend was picking me up. To then head home in the car to Chepstow.

What time did you leave Cwmbran? Was it a weekday, a Saturday, or a Sunday?

Is there any particular reason why you did not buy your ticket at the ticket office before boarding?

At this point next to the ticket lady was a gentleman who asked how I got through the ticket barrier at newport to which I replied I did not I got on the train at Cwmbran but would like to get back to newport.

Why did you not ask for a ticket from Cwmbran, since that is where you travelled from?

Gentle was quite rude and I made an honest mistake, not as if I was not willing to pay.

This part makes no sense to me. If you had every intention to pay, why did you not ask for the correct ticket? Asking for a short fare is a classic tactic used by fare evaders and I am not surprised at the slightest that your details were taken.

Anyway I've not had what I presume to be an initial letter from "Transport investigations" I'm guessing they must send a generic letter threatening court etc etc.

So you have not yet received a letter from them? Chances are that if your details were taken on the day (were they?), you will hear in due course.

I am not sure you fully appreciate the gravity of the situation. What you are potentially facing is a charge for a Section 5.3(a) offence, which if convicted under will mean a criminal record and a fine. This is not a letter of generic gibberish that they send to everyone. It is a real prospect for you.

But this sort on thing bugs me! And to be read by right at the train station unsettled me!

They were right to read you your rights if they intended to take statements which were to be used later as evidence in a court case, should it proceed that far.

I've drafted a letter which I intended to send tomorrow admitting my fault but explaining the above with the situation in my honest mistake

Thanks in advance

I suggest that you consider very carefully what you say in your reply, because if it is in the same mould as your post here, it is unlikely to go down well. There is nothing to gain by contacting them before you receive the letter so take a deep breath, and think carefully how you want to proceed.

 

[najaB]

Jumped on the Aviva train at Cwmbran to head to Cardiff central. Arrived at Cardiff central to where I went up to the ticket both...

From what I can see, Cwmbran has a ticket machine. Was it working at the time you boarded?

 

[yorkie]

...Jumped on the Aviva train at Cwmbran to head to Cardiff central. Arrived at Cardiff central to where I went up to the ticket both and asked for a return to newport a....

You mean a return from Newport? That's a clear attempt at avoiding the fare from Cwmbran to Cardiff, and to only pay the fare from Newport to Cardiff.

A prosecution would be very straightforward indeed, which would lead to a criminal record and a fine. Therefore, I would suggest you attempt to reach an out of court settlement with ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it worth while me adding to my letter about an out of court settlement?

Just apologise (none of the waffle - it certainly won't help) and offer to reach an out of court settlement, and they're likely to agree to that (based on previous cases on here, regarding ATW).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I can see, Cwmbran has a ticket machine. Was it working at the time you boarded?

It doesn't really matter; he's attempted to evade payment of the fare from Cwmbran by only paying from Newport. There could have been no facilities at Cwmbran whatsoever but none are needed for a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution to succeed.

The only difference is that, if facilities were in place and not by the Morgans123, he/she could instead be prosecuted under the lesser Railway Byelaws, but I can't think why ATW would do that, when they have what appears to be a clear-cut case of evading the fare from Cwmbran.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...I suggest that you consider very carefully what you say in your reply, because if it is in the same mould as your post here, it is unlikely to go down well...

Agreed.

 

[Morgans123]

Evening all thanks for the quick replies,

Left Cwmbran approx 4:30 on a Friday, simple reason for not buying a ticket like 99% of the cases I was in a rush with 4 other people. I rarely travel the train and when I do I jump on and chepstow and head to Cardiff for a match day. Where as the Chepstow train has a conductor who I always buy my ticket from, Weather it be a single or return.

Hear is where the confusion occurred upon arrival at Cardiff I was the first off the train and headed down the stairs and left to where there are normally staff ( at least on game days ) soon realised there were no such staff so done a 180 to find the other guys had turned right and were now ahead in the Que...

Upon conversation with the lady I asked for a return to newport as that's where I was getting picked up later at night as the trains run later to here. That's when the gentleman to the side asked how I got through the barrier at newport, to which I openly said I did not I got on at Cwmbran but want to get back to newport. To what i now realise I should of asked for singles from Cwmbran to Cardiff and Cardiff to newport.

Thanks to autocorrect in incorrectly said "hadn't" instead of "had". I have had the letter on intent stating they have sufficient evidence to prosecute.

I do now perceive the gravity of the circumstance... Never been read my rights before by the law / train law

I've drafted a letter basically stating the above but do you think then I should cut out the waffle and just ask for an out of court settlement?

Thanks again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I can see, Cwmbran has a ticket machine. Was it working at the time you boarded?

Your correct it does have a machine though I couldn't tell you if it was working or where it was.

I do realise ignorance isn't going to fly here.

 

[Merseysider]

Many of us on the forum would be happy to check your letter for spelling, factual accuracy and conciseness. All it takes is a post here or a PM to one of us once you've made 5 posts.

It's easy to see where your mistake was, but you could be prosecuted for a strict liability offence (Railway Byelaws); alternatively ATW may seek a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act. You only have to worry about a criminal record if they choose the latter - but achieving an out of court settlement would avoid all this.

 

[Morgans123]

Many of us on the forum would be happy to check your letter for spelling, factual accuracy and conciseness. All it takes is a post here or a PM to one of us once you've made 5 posts.

It's easy to see where your mistake was, but you could be prosecuted for a strict liability offence (Railway Byelaws); alternatively ATW may seek a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act. You only have to worry about a criminal record if they choose the latter - but achieving an out of court settlement would avoid all this.

I will if you don't mind take you up on the offer of a scan through, I'm going to type it up on the desktop PC tomorrow and send it off, for a genuine mistake I'm gutted!

The letter states "railway bye laws 2005" or "railway regulations 1889"

Thanks again.

 

[Fare-Cop]

From what I can see, Cwmbran has a ticket machine. Was it working at the time you boarded?

Cwmbran also has a ticket office open until 6 p.m. daily except Sundays

 

[Rich McLean]

For future reference, if boarding a train without a ticket from a station with ticket facilities, best practice is to leave plenty of time before the train is due in order to buy your tickets.

If your trains turns up and you haven't yet bought a ticket, you are still required to buy before you board and wait for the next service.

 

[Morgans123]

For future reference, if boarding a train without a ticket from a station with ticket facilities, best practice is to leave plenty of time before the train is due in order to buy your tickets.

If your trains turns up and you haven't yet bought a ticket, you are still required to buy before you board and wait for the next service.

Turns out every days a school day! I've only ever traveled the train what I'd guess to say 15 time in my lifetime.

Seems I've just followed friends like a sheep so be it, but in doing so incorrectly!


Also how come I was not offered to buy the correct ticket having read a few posts seems some people were. That just count of which ticket officer you get? And up to them to judge the situation?

Thanks

 

[Murph]

for a genuine mistake I'm gutted!

Unfortunately, what you said and did at the time made it appear to the railway staff that your intent was to avoid paying the appropriate fare in full, and instead pay a shorter fare. As far as the law goes, your actual intention (i.e. what you were thinking) is irrelevant, your intent is inferred from your actions and words. Under the law, you can be judged to have intent (and quite likely would in this case), despite having no such intent in your mind at the time.

For people making an honest mistake, the result is unfair, but that's the way the law is written.

 

[Morgans123]

Unfortunately, what you said and did at the time made it appear to the railway staff that your intent was to avoid paying the appropriate fare in full, and instead pay a shorter fare. As far as the law goes, your actual intention (i.e. what you were thinking) is irrelevant, your intent is inferred from your actions and words. Under the law, you can be judged to have intent (and quite likely would in this case), despite having no such intent in your mind at the time.

For people making an honest mistake, the result is unfair, but that's the way the law is written.

You've summed it up perfectly in one paragraph I fully appreciate that the train companies are a business and their there to provide a service, pay there employes and turn a profit as I would, if it was my business! I've been caught in the crossfire it would seem!

And the law being the law is written in stone and it would seem there is no middle ground! Either black of white.

Thanks

 

[Clip]

You've summed it up perfectly in one paragraph I fully appreciate that the train companies are a business and their there to provide a service, pay there employes and turn a profit as I would, if it was my business! I've been caught in the crossfire it would seem!

And the law being the law is written in stone and it would seem there is no middle ground! Either black of white.

Thanks

I don't think you can get more black and white than in your case im afraid. Sorry.

Get someone to proof a letter from here before you send it as they have done it many times before and get out your cheque book.

 

[455driver]

No crossfire, looks like a direct hit to me!

 

[Morgans123]

No crossfire, looks like a direct hit to me!

Ouch!

 

[yorkie]

I don't think there's any benefit to keeping the discussion going, unless of course there any further developments...

 

[Morgans123]

I don't think you can get more black and white than in your case im afraid. Sorry.

Get someone to proof a letter from here before you send it as they have done it many times before and get out your cheque book.

Indeed anyone had any experience how much ATW would charge looking around seems 80 - 250 is trending and likely 150? Suppose case specific though and no set fine?

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

Indeed anyone had any experience how much ATW would charge looking around seems 80 - 250 is trending and likely 150? Suppose case specific though and no set fine?

Thanks

It's down to ATW, there's no way we can speculate as it depends on what evidence they have, how much time they've already spent on the case, and possibly how busy they are, etc.

 

[Morgans123]

I don't think there's any benefit to keeping the discussion going, unless of course there any further developments...

If you would mind keeping the thread open till tomorrow? Gather some feedback that's all.

Thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Upon conversation with the lady I asked for a return to newport as that's where I was getting picked up later at night as the trains run later to here. That's when the gentleman to the side asked how I got through the barrier at newport, to which I openly said I did not I got on at Cwmbran but want to get back to newport. To what i now realise I should of asked for singles from Cwmbran to Cardiff and Cardiff to newport.

That or a return from Cwmbran (part of which you'd use to get back to Newport, as it's on the way).

Neil

 

[455driver]

Ouch!

Oh you soon get used to me!

I would write up that letter, get one of our experts on here to check it for your (your spelling isnt the best ) and then get it off to them.
Keep it accurate, brief and concise though, any extraneous waffle and the person reading it will lose interest quite quickly, they have heard all the excuses before so dont try and be clever, just stick to the facts.

Good luck with it and please buy the correct ticket at the start of your journey in future, this whole episode might seem rather harsh from your viewpoint but the railway loses a very large sum from fare evaders, dogbone travellers and short farers and are slowly getting to grips with the problem.

Oh and sometimes a return (even if you are not using all of the return part) can be cheaper than 2 singles, worth checking before travelling.

 

[bb21]

Most of what I wish to add has already been covered by other people so I will just focus on the point I made in the other thread.

The reason you are recommended an out-of-court settlement in your case is because there is a real threat of a criminal record which can have a quite big impact for people wishing to pursue a career in many different professions. Your case falls squarely within the remit of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which comes with a bigger fine compared to a conviction under the Railway Byelaws. (Of course they could choose to pursue you under the Byelaws but I believe they have all the evidence they require for a successful prosecution under the former.) It really is about damage limitation and only about damage limitation.

For WorriedNewbie in the other thread, the train company are considering a charge under the Railway Byelaws, which carries a smaller financial penalty, and no risk of criminal record. That means WorriedNewbie does not have much to lose even if he chooses to fight it, whereas you cannot really afford to lose your case (I suspect) if you go all the way to court. WorriedNewbie therefore have two equally viable options realistically speaking and the only reason why an out-of-court settlement was preferred in my opinion is the reduced potential difficulty in getting the money back.