Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[najaB]

Perhaps but isn't there a direct coach from the terminal to Glasgow?

If you mean the Stenaline service, then the coach is to Ayr to pick up the train.

 

[thealexweb]

Noticed the "ScotRail is operated by First" labels on the doors have been covered up - by a another grey sticker. It's a different colour and makes the doors look patchy, very shoddy. I thought the stickers were supposed to peel off for the new operator to attach theirs?

Could it be possible that there is an Abellio sticker attached underneath that cannot be unveiled yet?

 

[Argosy]

The problem is platform 4. The facilities at Ayr are pretty awful and it is a very cold station with no proper waiting facilities. It was only in 2013 they actually installed seats on P4!

 

[scotsman]

Could it be possible that there is an Abellio sticker attached underneath that cannot be unveiled yet?

Doubt it, seen many trains without both.

 

[me123]

Perhaps but isn't there a direct coach from the terminal to Glasgow? In that sense I agree with Ainsworth that demand is probably minimal in that context.

Yes, but you all seem top be forgetting that Stranraer and the intermediate stations are towns and destinations in themselves, and the service will also be used by both locals and tourists to the South West of Scotland. Indeed, with the ferry link revised, surely the line will need these passengers in order to survive?

Stranraer is far enough away from Glasgow that quite a few passengers will have at least an overnight bag with them.

 

[Class 170101]

If you mean the Stenaline service, then the coach is to Ayr to pick up the train.

Yes I did thanks for correcting me :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, but you all seem top be forgetting that Stranraer and the intermediate stations are towns and destinations in themselves, and the service will also be used by both locals and tourists to the South West of Scotland. Indeed, with the ferry link revised, surely the line will need these passengers in order to survive?

Yes it will

Stranraer is far enough away from Glasgow that quite a few passengers will have at least an overnight bag with them.

Seriously I can't believe it takes that long to get to / from Glasgow

 

[me123]

Seriously I can't believe it takes that long to get to / from Glasgow

2h10-2h30, depending on the exact service. And "only" six trains daily at present. A day trip is certainly possible with those timings, but spending up to 5h a day on the train is quite a lot. And that's just to Glasgow - it'll be longer if you're going further afield. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a lot of people doing the trip would be staying for more than the day.

As is the case on the similarly long routes between the Central Belt and the North East. On Glasgow-Aberdeen services for example (2h30+), I reckon most passengers going the full stretch of the line have at least an overnight bag. Indeed, I make the journey regularly and probably never do it in a day. Different market of course, but I can't imagine there being much difference in the

Now, this is all academic. Even with luggage, >90% of passengers will more than happily make a quick transfer at Ayr. My point was, if services were going to be exclusively Stranraer to Kilmarnock, perhaps continuing service as a through route to Glasgow Central would appeal to the small (but vocal) elderly population who may struggle with transferring their luggage between trains? And there would be minimal cost; the trains simply reverse in Kilmarnock and form one of the 2tph to GLC from there.

Besides, Ayr-Glasgow via Kilmarnock is quite a nice scenic alternative. At least until you hit Barrhead (not that Paisley is any better to be fair).

 

[Argosy]

2h10-2h30, depending on the exact service. And "only" six trains daily at present.

Now, this is all academic. Even with luggage, >90% of passengers will more than happily make a quick transfer at Ayr. My point was, if services were going to be exclusively Stranraer to Kilmarnock, perhaps continuing service as a through route to Glasgow Central would appeal to the small (but vocal) elderly population who may struggle with transferring their luggage between trains? And there would be minimal cost; the trains simply reverse in Kilmarnock and form one of the 2tph to GLC from there.

Besides, Ayr-Glasgow via Kilmarnock is quite a nice scenic alternative. At least until you hit Barrhead (not that Paisley is any better to be fair).

Many posters on here are ignoring the local resentment of going via Kilmarnock. It is perceived as slow.

Though shorter it is longer, not so much because of the reversal, as the pathing. Kilmarnock - Barrhead is not a continuous two-track route only between Stewarton and Dunlop. Therefore you have to arrive 'in the slot' to theoretically run the service. With the re-timing in 2010 or whenever it was when the partial re-doubling took place, one either has to lose time at Ayr or Kilmarnock (10 mins plus) to gain the path occasioned because of the constraints mentioned.

As for changing at Ayr one needs to understand the passenger experience. If travelling light it is probably no big deal hence the 'request' to have only two or three through trains a day. Put it this way, given a choice as a visitor whose journey may be discretionary, does changing trains make a journey more or less attractive?

I suggest backed by weight of evidence it makes it more unattractive. Indeed those in any doubt should see the responses to the Rail 2014 - ScotRail consultation exercise Q16. Reviewed by MVA over 75% of individuals did not support changing.

The other irony is that the diesels offer the fastest journey of the day between Ayr and Glasgow and the units are perceived as warmer and more comfortable. (The 1/3, 2/3 positioning of the doors probably has much to do with it as well as the good awful 'modern' seating on the 380. Not sure the somewhat strident ping, ping, ping of the door mechanism opening helps either though I am sure appeals to those who like anti-submarine warfare films).

The decision will mean south west Scotland will be the only region in Scotland without direct rail services to the Central Belt. Running a solitary northbound service at 2104 is hardly conducive to serving the public interest anymore than the handful of parly trains elsewhere on the network. One suspects it is being done so that crews retain route knowledge as well as getting a unit back to Corkerhill for maintenance.

If changing trains or running under the wires was such an issue then I offer East Coast to Dundee and Aberdeen as well as Glasgow - Oban/Fort William. Why not get everyone to Dundee/Aberdeen to change at Edinburgh or Oban/Fort William at Dumbarton? These sentiments were emphatically rejected in the consultation.

The proportion of people from Stranraer travelling to or through Glasgow is around 46% of all passengers. By changing, journey time will increase although the through services at the moment run at fairly inconvenient times, opportunities are being missed.

Ironically the draft ITT and ITT propose there need be no direct trains north of Ayr at all, provided there was at least one extra train and indeed to get to Kilmarnock from Stranraer a change at Girvan is acceptable.

Interestingly the increased mileage to be run by Abellio will increase their costs by between £0.75m and £1.25m to a place of little significance to those in Stranraer. An independent rail economist has put the annual loss of revenue at £90k. So here we have a proposal to make a destination people want to go to more unattractive, replace it with one less attractive and add more journeys to the one that is least attractive. One assumes the risks have been calculated.

Access to Kilmarnock is important for students, but that is about all. Demand via the GSWR is not great and indeed those heading to Carlisle can often make it as quick going via Glasgow and down the WCML. The main disadvantage to that is cost but I suppose if you were heading to say Warrington, Manchester or Birmingham the advantage of getting on where the train starts might offer other advantages too.

It isn't as straightforward as posters suggest. A balance needs to be struck. At the moment the theorists are in charge. If changing was so wonderful why don't Citylink/Stagecoach do a deal and get coaches to run a higher frequency to Ayr from Stranraer/Cairnryan and force passengers to change coaches?

With this plan coming in there has to be a real concern that in ten years time the Girvan - Stranraer section could be traded off against electrification south to Girvan and upgrading the A77 since Girvan - Stranraer by road is shorter and quicker than by rail, whereas ironically Stranraer - Glasgow by rail is very comparable to road. No other scenic rail route in Scotland can offer such a close comparison. Sadly this is lost on those making the decisions, since as industry insiders continually advise, Stranraer is simply not an interest to them, only the Highlands.

2h10-2h30, depending on the exact service. And "only" six trains daily at present. A day trip is certainly possible with those timings, but spending up to 5h a day on the train is quite a lot. And that's just to Glasgow - it'll be longer if you're going further afield. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a lot of people doing the trip would be staying for more than the day.

Most people going to Stranraer as visitors are going for the day. One gets a few overnighters (Portpatrick) and in the summer those going to Ireland or from Ireland on BritRail passes.

Besides, Ayr-Glasgow via Kilmarnock is quite a nice scenic alternative. At least until you hit Barrhead (not that Paisley is any better to be fair).

It is, I agree with you, but it is of virtually no interest to people from Stranraer. Ironically it is shorter in distance!

 

[berneyarms]

The plan is for a train every two hours from Stranraer to Kilmarnock - that will make the line far more appealing and the ability to make day trips far easier.

I find this obsession with direct trains really bemusing - once there are easy connections it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[me123]

Many posters on here are ignoring the local resentment of going via Kilmarnock. It is perceived as slow.

So slow, in fact, that it can be quicker to transfer at Ayr. That is why I have suggested that the transfer at Ayr be advertised as a proper connection.

As for changing at Ayr one needs to understand the passenger experience. If travelling light it is probably no big deal hence the 'request' to have only two or three through trains a day. Put it this way, given a choice as a visitor whose journey may be discretionary, does changing trains make a journey more or less attractive?

Changing trains does, of course, make a journey less attractive. Ideally, I would suggest that the service be provided by a 380 running from Glasgow to Ayr and on to Stranraer as a through train, perhaps dividing at Ayr. If you can find justification

The reality is that the 156s would struggle to fit the current service pattern North of Ayr, which has been designed with the vast majority of passengers in mind.

The other irony is that the diesels offer the fastest journey of the day between Ayr and Glasgow and the units are perceived as warmer and more comfortable. (The 1/3, 2/3 positioning of the doors probably has much to do with it as well as the good awful 'modern' seating on the 380. Not sure the somewhat strident ping, ping, ping of the door mechanism opening helps either though I am sure appeals to those who like anti-submarine warfare films).

1/3 and 2/3 doors are perfectly fine. 380s are perfectly fine.

The decision will mean south west Scotland will be the only region in Scotland without direct rail services to the Central Belt. Running a solitary northbound service at 2104 is hardly conducive to serving the public interest anymore than the handful of parly trains elsewhere on the network. One suspects it is being done so that crews retain route knowledge as well as getting a unit back to Corkerhill for maintenance.

A very interesting interpretation of region. I would argue that Dumfries in the South West region. I would also argue that the Far North of Scotland is a region that has no direct trains to Glasgow or Edinburgh. And Moray has fewer than Stranraer does. And the Borders currently have no direct trains to anywhere (and won't have a direct train to Glasgow any time soon).

If changing trains or running under the wires was such an issue then I offer East Coast to Dundee and Aberdeen as well as Glasgow - Oban/Fort William. Why not get everyone to Dundee/Aberdeen to change at Edinburgh or Oban/Fort William at Dumbarton? These sentiments were emphatically rejected in the consultation.

But you're talking about much higher passenger numbers on routes where capacity to fit in these services is not really an issue! I would agree, as I've already said, that in an ideal world Glasgow-Stranraer would see a frequent service as an extension of the (fast) EMUs to Ayr. However, given the relatively low usage, we have to be practical and consider the best use of resources.

There is capacity to run the WHL trains onto the North Clyde Lines, and the WHL is well used and well known. There is significant demand for through traffic from the North East to England (and, in fact, I understand that there are plans to withdraw these services once HS2 is in place!). And, in fact, I think you'll find that plenty of people already change in Edinburgh onto EC services without concern.

Ironically the draft ITT and ITT propose there need be no direct trains north of Ayr at all, provided there was at least one extra train and indeed to get to Kilmarnock from Stranraer a change at Girvan is acceptable.

Access to Kilmarnock is important for students, but that is about all. Demand via the GSWR is not great and indeed those heading to Carlisle can often make it as quick going via Glasgow and down the WCML. The main disadvantage to that is cost but I suppose if you were heading to say Warrington, Manchester or Birmingham the advantage of getting on where the train starts might offer other advantages too.

I think a Stranraer to Carlisle service would carry little if any through traffic. However, I would argue that a rail service connecting the major economic centres of Ayrshire would be a worthwhile move.

I am not suggesting for one moment that Stranraer-Kilmarnock services are the best solution to the problem. But I think that they are a reasonable solution given the current service pattern on the line, and given the current issues. I agree that changing is not ideal. I agree that through trains would be preferable. I agree that fast trains from Stranraer to Glasgow would be wonderful.

However, I'm also realistic. I know that Stranraer's rail line is unlikely to be electrified in the foreseeable future. I know that there is significant demand for travel on the Ayr-Glasgow corridor, so much so that the line now sees 4tph throughout the day, with very high frequencies on the Paisley-Glasgow corridor (which I would argue should have been upgraded to 4-track rather than 3).

This is why I would be in agreement that running trains from Stranraer to Kilmarnock with connections at both Kilmarnock and, more importantly, Ayr is the best compromise. It provides an improved link in Ayrshire which I would argue would be beneficial. (I would argue 1tph Girvan-Kilmarnock would be a good move, with alternate trains extended to Stranraer, although I do not know about the practicalities). Ayr station can provide good connections, particularly if transfers are arranged as a cross-platform connection between 2 and 3. They can be enhanced by advertising the link as a guaranteed connection, with Southbound trains being delayed a small amount of time if necessary to await connecting passengers. Scotrail can use station staff to assist and guide passengers connecting, as I've seen them do in Inverness.

If the population of Moray and the Far North can make transfers when travelling to the Central Belt (and they do, with no questions), I see no reason why it's not an acceptable (albeit admittedly suboptimal) solution to the problem.

But if electrifying the line was on the cards, I'd change my opinion entirely and suggest that the 1tp2h to Stranraer be operated as extensions of the Glasgow-Ayr service.

 

[HSTEd]

If 314s are going off lease we might get another electrification project announcement soon

 

[Haydn1971]

If 314s are going off lease we might get another electrification project announcement soon

To add to the list of ones that are already delayed ?

 

[Fishplate84]

Does a transfer make a place less attractive to discretionary visitors?

Nope, I don't think so. They are discretionary, if they want to go to Stranraer then they want to go to Stranraer by their own choice and for their own reasons.
Even with the fastest and interchange free service, if Stranraer isn't perceived as a place worth going to for its own merits then they ain't going to go.

Travel is mostly a derived demand, and that demand is generated by the attractiveness of the destination. Very few people go to places just because it happens to be easy to get to, especially if there isn't much there that makes the journey worthwhile.

It makes more a difference for regular and commuter type travellers who might not want the hassle of changing trains every day. But Stranraer is a bit far to commute to Glasgow from.

 

[Class 170101]

If 314s are going off lease we might get another electrification project announcement soon

I didn't think these units could run in service beyond December 2019 anyways due to access regulations.

 

[Murph]

I didn't think these units could run in service beyond December 2019 anyways due to access regulations.

If there's a need for them somewhere, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to create an accessible coach on them. Are any 313s or 315s getting PRM-TSI upgrades? If so, it would be "easy" to do 314s as well, as the design work would already have largely been done. They might not even need any PRM-TSI upgrades if they were used, for example, to lengthen trains for a 313 or 315 operator who had spent money on their existing stock, just ensure that they are always coupled in service to a unit which has the upgrades.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I didn't think these units could run in service beyond December 2019 anyways due to access regulations.

Why not? From a passenger perspective there's not a vast amount of difference between them and a toiletless Mk3 EMU, the ScotRail examples of which are already being upgraded to be fully compliant (including an accessible toilet). The Greater Anglia 315s are being refurbished to PRM-TSI standard according to the list of accessible vehicles on GOV.UK.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think franchise condition was all stock at Anglia being made compliant. In the short franchise they've modified all Mk3's, 315 and 156 possibly more.

 

[Argosy]

So slow, in fact, that it can be quicker to transfer at Ayr. That is why I have suggested that the transfer at Ayr be advertised as a proper connection.

It is already. Though wouldn't appear as such on the paper destination timetables at Glasgow Central.

Ideally, I would suggest that the service be provided by a 380 running from Glasgow to Ayr and on to Stranraer as a through train, perhaps dividing at Ayr. If you can find justification.

The local CRP is advocating bi-mode trains to deliver this eventuality.

The reality is that the 156s would struggle to fit the current service pattern North of Ayr, which has been designed with the vast majority of passengers in mind.

No they do not. Their standard journey time is 46 minutes. The rest is padding because of the poor timetable construction. The main slot is xx50 southbound and xx00 northbound from Ayr. Please do not confuse vehicle speed with timetable pathing and 'slots'. In simple terms if you are on the A77 in a Maserati travelling in a queue at a steady 40mph the fact you are in a sports car capable of going faster than anything else in the queue is irrelelevant. It is the queue, the road geography and the volume of traffic coming the other way that dictates your speed. Not the design of your car.

A very interesting interpretation of region. I would argue that Dumfries in the South West region. I would also argue that the Far North of Scotland is a region that has no direct trains to Glasgow or Edinburgh. And Moray has fewer than Stranraer does. And the Borders currently have no direct trains to anywhere (and won't have a direct train to Glasgow any time soon).

Hmm, so where is south Scotland then? If Newcastleton, Langholm is the Borders, Dumfries must be south along with Lockerbie, Gretna. South west is generally seen as Kircudbrightshire and Wigtownshire. Saying Stranraer and Dumfries are in the same area is akin to saying Norwich and Peterborogh are. Technically they are in Eastern England, you just forget the two hour journey in between. Stranraer definitely south west. Dumfries south. At least the BBC think so!

I would agree, as I've already said, that in an ideal world Glasgow-Stranraer would see a frequent service as an extension of the (fast) EMUs to Ayr.

Well given the lack of juice... However bi-mode trains is what is being argued for here and then the solution is simple and is as you say. Hourly GC - Ayr - Girvan, two hourly GC - Ayr - Girvan - Stranraer.

There is significant demand for through traffic from the North East to England (and, in fact, I understand that there are plans to withdraw these services once HS2 is in place!). And, in fact, I think you'll find that plenty of people already change in Edinburgh onto EC services without concern.

But there was uproar when it was proposed to do away with the direct trains.

I think a Stranraer to Carlisle service would carry little if any through traffic. However, I would argue that a rail service connecting the major economic centres of Ayrshire would be a worthwhile move.

Absolutely. Most of the passengers who want to go to Kilmarnock board at Ayr and northwards, the main exception is students. Part of the reason is the historic rivalry/antipathy of Ayr and Kilmarnock towards each other. They also effectively sit on radials like 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock or akin to Stevenage and Luton with regard to London.

I know that there is significant demand for travel on the Ayr-Glasgow corridor, so much so that the line now sees 4tph throughout the day, with very high frequencies on the Paisley-Glasgow corridor (which I would argue should have been upgraded to 4-track rather than 3).

No I think you are drawing the wrong inference here. The 4tph is a bit of a red herring. North of Kilwinning the 2 Ayr slows are effectively the Garnock Valley locals. Irvine is a bit in between but south of Irvine the Ayr/Glasgow slows are little used. When electrification to Kilmarnock is rolled out I expect to see 2 tph Ayr - Kilwinning - GC and 2 tph Ayr - Kilmarnock - GC. Possibly a third Ayr - GC to serve Irvine.

Ayr station can provide good connections, particularly if transfers are arranged as a cross-platform connection between 2 and 3. They can be enhanced by advertising the link as a guaranteed connection, with Southbound trains being delayed a small amount of time if necessary to await connecting passengers. Scotrail can use station staff to assist and guide passengers connecting, as I've seen them do in Inverness.

There are many occassions that GC trains leave from P4 when a train from the south arrives on P3 or vice versa. This is due to two things, train length (380s over 4 cars can't use P1 or P2) and the volume of 380s off peak means they must use all four platforms. The general concensus of local staff is 4tph off peak is a waste of resource. 3tph might have been better.

If the population of Moray and the Far North can make transfers when travelling to the Central Belt (and they do, with no questions), I see no reason why it's not an acceptable (albeit admittedly suboptimal) solution to the problem.

Wooah, Glasgow is a reasonable journey time from Stranraer 2h 8 min. From Moray, where I used to live the normal destinations were Inverness or Aberdeen. Similarly on the Far North it is Inverness. Stranraer to Glasgow is a very high flow proportionally to/from Stranraer. It would be akin to withdrawing all Dumfries - Glasgows and putting on a half hourly frequency to Carlisle to get a Virgin or TP service to Glasgow. Perhaps I'll suggest it! I actually know of one senior manager who does.

One is not suggesting that all trains must go to Glasgow, just some!

Thanks for the debate. Regards.

 

[Brian Aylott]

I think franchise condition was all stock at Anglia being made compliant. In the short franchise they've modified all Mk3's, 315 and 156 possibly more.

No
Brian

 

[92002]

Yes, but you all seem top be forgetting that Stranraer and the intermediate stations are towns and destinations in themselves, and the service will also be used by both locals and tourists to the South West of Scotland. Indeed, with the ferry link revised, surely the line will need these passengers in order to survive?

Stranraer is far enough away from Glasgow that quite a few passengers will have at least an overnight bag with them.

Sadly the problem with Stranraer services is there are so few through passengers from end to end at Glasgow. That it doesn't pay for the fuel or the staff wages.

It's a classic case of use it or lose it.

Even the boat connection is now a bus from Ayr. Although the amounts of passengers using the ferry has reduced significantly.

 

[najaB]

Even the boat connection is now a bus from Ayr. Although the amounts of passengers using the ferry has reduced significantly.

The numbers may have reduced, but I travelled on the Cairnryan-Belfast ferry five or six times over the summer and it was busy every time.

 

[92002]

The numbers may have reduced, but I travelled on the Cairnryan-Belfast ferry five or six times over the summer and it was busy every time.

However were these train passengers or road ones.

There is only one bus to the ferry from Ayr and it is rarely full.

 

[najaB]

However were these train passengers or road ones.

There is only one bus to the ferry from Ayr and it is rarely full.

Train passengers (as was I). On two of the occasions that I travelled the bus was lightly loaded (maybe 15 passengers), on the others it was much fuller - to the point that I thought not everyone would fit, though they did.

 

[Argosy]

However were these train passengers or road ones.

There is only one bus to the ferry from Ayr and it is rarely full.

The public transport provision to Cairnryan comprises the Stagecoach 358 (roughly 2 hourly), the Stena (Dodds of Troon) contract coach, the electric bus 350, the 923 service to Glasgow/Edinburgh, the 920 service to London and the 921 service to Birmingham. Not exactly isolated.

 

[berneyarms]

Sadly the problem with Stranraer services is there are so few through passengers from end to end at Glasgow. That it doesn't pay for the fuel or the staff wages.

It's a classic case of use it or lose it.

Even the boat connection is now a bus from Ayr. Although the amounts of passengers using the ferry has reduced significantly.

The plan is for a two hourly Stranraer-Ayr service which in all probability will actually operate to/from Kilmarnock, and it must have connections at Ayr for Glasgow that have waiting times not exceeding 10 minutes.

 

[Argosy]

Sadly the problem with Stranraer services is there are so few through passengers from end to end at Glasgow. That it doesn't pay for the fuel or the staff wages.

It's a classic case of use it or lose it.

Even the boat connection is now a bus from Ayr. Although the amounts of passengers using the ferry has reduced significantly.

There are more people travelling to Glasgow from the Stranraer line than there are from the West Highland Extension (Mallaig line). They have direct trains.

Perhaps Far North line services should terminate at Dingwall and passengers interchange there?

Of the 6 'scenic' railways in Scotland, the Stranraer line carries the second highest volume of passengers after the Far North Line and in 2013/14 accounted by far the largest growth in passengers some two thirds higher than the next best route the West Highland line.

Indeed it is rather ironic that over the last six years the worst performing scenic line in terms of growth gets the best increase in services - the Oban line !

Since 2008/9 growth on the Oban line has been 5,919 passenger journeys, by comparison the Stranraer line has increased by 68,710 and if it hadn't been for the loss of ferry passengers that would be around 130,000 now putting it top of the scenic lines routes.

Under the circumstances it does a lot better than most realise.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Sorry, can't remember if it was on this thread or elsewhere that there was recent discussion of Abellio's "Club 50" and whether it was still going to happen, but on the latest episode of Borders Railway From Start To Finish, Mike Kean from Abellio discusses it as part of their strategy for the Borders Railway. (00:07:03)

 

[stounloon]

Interesting stuff from Abellio re the use of HSTs - http://www.abellio.com/scotrail-passenger-story/true-intercity-railway-network-scotland

Four and five carriage sets - is that a 2+9 HST split in two, with a DVT added to the end of each section? If not, then 2+4 HST = nifty acceleration! (Bear in mind they will have three years in which to find/build any required DVTs)

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe it's been clarified elsewhere that the sets will have two power cars. There will be no DVTs involved.

 

[stounloon]

I believe it's been clarified elsewhere that the sets will have two power cars. There will be no DVTs involved.

Thanks for the reply - I wasn't aware of that. 2+5 or 2+4 will be rather nippy.