Kicking up a stink - non retention toilets.

[Blindtraveler]

I dont believe MK4s have them???

 

[Goatboy]

It seems bizarre that this has suddenly become an issue thats newsworthy.

It's happened for 150 years and every year as more stock is replaced it becomes less and less of an issue. It will naturally go away over time and in 20 years time I doubt there will be much, if any, stock left that does it.

Quite why its all over todays news I've no idea?

 

[455driver]

It will naturally go away over time

Of course it does!

Yes I knew what you meant!

 

[Moonshot]

It seems bizarre that this has suddenly become an issue thats newsworthy.

It's happened for 150 years and every year as more stock is replaced it becomes less and less of an issue. It will naturally go away over time and in 20 years time I doubt there will be much, if any, stock left that does it.

Quite why its all over todays news I've no idea?

100% correct........As far as I know there are much reduced numbers of rolling stock with this issue. Add in the fact that Network Rail are actively discouraging red zone working, and I really dont see what the fuss is about.

Maybe someone could do some research and find out just what % of the 24000 or so services that operate on a daily basis in the UK actuall have this issue. Id be suprised if its more than 5%

 

[Pacerpilot]

There's nothing I love more than running round my train in Bristol Parkway P.4 and having to stand amongst the 'bangers and mash' to couple up :cry:

 

[1e10]

Personally I'm of the opposite opinion, retention tanks should be ripped out of voyagers so the carriages dont smell.

Or just sort the mechanical problem that's behind the smell.

Agreed, but how many trains can the TOC spare to have the leasing company fitting the tanks?
Plus the fact you will need to install emptying equipment at the depots.
You will also need to change the diagrams so each train will visit a location where the tanks can be emptied every couple of days.

The there is the biggy, there are no spare units and the ones in service are worked very intensely with no spare capacity!

Quick question for someone that might know. Do XC have the retention tanks on Voyagers emptied every night?

 

[455driver]

Basically, any that end up at a depot with tanking facilities will be emptied every night, its only the ones stabled away (if any) from the facilities that wont be done.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I dont believe MK4s have them???

Mk4 stock was fitted with retention tanks from new.

Being the first with something has hazards; modifications had to be made early on after it was found on test that the pressure wave in the tunnels near Grantham was powerful enough to overcome the one way valves on the discharge outlets and the result became known as the "waterspout effect".

A speed restriction had to be placed on the stock through the relevant tunnels until the modifications were made.

Lucky they discovered that before the stock entered passenger service...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Ok so Iv worked out that any services worked by unmodiffied:

MK2, MK3 and HST Coaches, Classes 142, 143, 144, 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 317, 318, 319, 321 and possibly 455 (if any units have them) and again possibly 442 if not tank fitted will have this issue? ↲ a lot more than five percent Id think.

Out of these, I doubt any Pacer will be fitted with one, the sprinter life extention programme makes all but the 153s almost certain for upgrade with the 153s future still uncertain. So that leavs the EMUs which again is very likely to happen those that dont yet have it, the acception again being 442s but if they dont already have tanks then maybe fitting them would be a smart move for if nothing else extinguishing the flames in service?↲

 

[Surreyman]

Ok so Iv worked out that any services worked by unmodiffied:

MK2, MK3 and HST Coaches, Classes 142, 143, 144, 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 317, 318, 319, 321 and possibly 455 (if any units have them) and again possibly 442 if not tank fitted will have this issue? ↲ a lot more than five percent Id think.

Out of these, I doubt any Pacer will be fitted with one, the sprinter life extention programme makes all but the 153s almost certain for upgrade with the 153s future still uncertain. So that leavs the EMUs which again is very likely to happen those that dont yet have it, the acception again being 442s but if they dont already have tanks then maybe fitting them would be a smart move for if nothing else extinguishing the flames in service?↲

Some 158s (Southwest Trains, Scotrail & I think some Northern) have retention tanks, so do all 318 and 442.
455 do not have toilets.
I am guessing that the recently refurbed/upgraded 156s at Anglia have retention tanks?

 

[ryan125hst]

possibly 442 if not tank fitted will have this issue?

The Class 442's have tanks according to Southern's "Toilet Report" on their website: http://storage.railtechsolutions.co.uk/Southern/Toilet-Report.pdf

The report, which is updates a few times a day, shows every Class 377, 171 and 442 toilet fitted coach and mentions whether it is working, at risk or unavailable. If there is a problem, it says whether the problem is due to water (presumably low water), CET (full tank) or a fault.

 

[Ploughman]

I seem to remember talk of a film commissioned by the LMS showing testing of the discharge from toilets by tipping white wash down the pan.
Led to believe that the results were never released due to finding out just how thoroughly the train was permeated.

 

[jon0844]

The problem with the mk4s is that the tanks overflow when full, and on the tight curve south of Hatfield station, can get messy for all those on platform 1 - as an example of what I assume are lots of problem areas along the ECML.

Of course they should be emptied more frequently to eliminate that problem.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with the mk4s is that the tanks overflow when full, and on the tight curve south of Hatfield station, can get messy for all those on platform 1 - as an example of what I assume are lots of problem areas along the ECML.

Of course they should be emptied more frequently to eliminate that problem.

On the plus side, it does stop all of the toilets ending up locked out of use at the end of the evening. Personally I feel that this represents a better compromise for shorter inter-regional trains than the closed hi-tec systems which seem to be standard at present.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wonder, can any depot staff shed light on the emptying process? Is it just like a campervan i.e park in rite place and pump out?

 

[1e10]

I wonder, can any depot staff shed light on the emptying process? Is it just like a campervan i.e park in rite place and pump out?

I believe so. The process was featured in the First Great Western documentary on channel five a few months ago.

 

[jon0844]

The mk4s are emptied (or not as the case may be) near the sewage treatment works by Alexandra Palace.

I guess FCC has its own facilities at Hornsey depot as I've never seen one of its trains there.

 

[Envoy]

BBC West Midlands version of Inside Out will be looking at the discharge of effluent from trains onto tracks & whether it poses a danger to workers/public?

Viewers with satellite can see it nationwide on Freesat 963/ Sky 959 at 7.30pm.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Yes, the BBC were fishing on here for comments and/or an interview a couple of months back.

 

[thelongestroad]

Effluent? Gosh, wouldn't want to offend anyone by calling it poop, wee or used paper towels. God forbid they called it sewage.

 

[a1a.a1a]

456s were built with toilets but had them removed shortly after they were introduced.

The 456 bogs were only removed a couple of years back in a move to increase capacity by Southern

Oh and 319's have tanks too, they are emptied using a suckee-suckee machine which if not securely attached to the de-tank pipe can have a dire effect on the user (so I am told)

 

[jopsuk]

Effluent? Gosh, wouldn't want to offend anyone by calling it poop, wee or used paper towels. God forbid they called it sewage.

"effluent" is a perfectly acceptable, catch-all, technical term for it. Certainly not used to avoid offence. No point in calling it "poop" or "wee" as that would be childish and inaccurate.

 

[A0]

Ok so Iv worked out that any services worked by unmodiffied:

MK2, MK3 and HST Coaches, Classes 142, 143, 144, 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 317, 318, 319, 321 and possibly 455 (if any units have them) and again possibly 442 if not tank fitted will have this issue? ↲ a lot more than five percent Id think.

Out of these, I doubt any Pacer will be fitted with one, the sprinter life extention programme makes all but the 153s almost certain for upgrade with the 153s future still uncertain. So that leavs the EMUs which again is very likely to happen those that dont yet have it, the acception again being 442s but if they dont already have tanks then maybe fitting them would be a smart move for if nothing else extinguishing the flames in service?↲

I would assume 319s have tanks given their work is through the TL tunnels - the original 317s were fitted with tanks for working the Kentish Town - Moorgate services, so I'd assume the 319s which replaced them were similarly equipped?

 

[Mikey C]

I recall reading somewhere that modern retention train toilets are quite high tech, as using water to flush the toilet conventionally would cause over the course of the journey a significant change in weight distribution from the high water tank to the lower waste tank?

 

[455driver]

The 456 bogs were only removed a couple of years back in a move to increase capacity by Southern

They were all removed before 1999 (I cant find my books before then) so more than 'a couple of years ago', especially as they were only built in 1990.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if it will highlight the issue with the Mk4s that have tanks but when full overflow, causing effluent to spray out much higher and cover a wider area?

 

[yorksrob]

What's this programme called?

Top of the Plops?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What's this programme called? Top of the Plops?

Don't underestimate the power of the media on this one.
What was acceptable for a century or more is increasingly unacceptable today.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the factor which finally caused Northern stock to be replaced was triggered by the "health" issues with non-retention stock.
The HSTs/Mk3 stock might just get by until IEPs turn up, but they are on borrowed time.
The lady Ministers at the DfT are not impressed.

 

[Welly]

Some months ago, I was watching the TV serial about Great Western (I think) and in the episode about maintenance of trains, I was gagging at the fitter underneath a Mark 3 bogie that was all covered in effluence from the toilets!!!

 

[Murph]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30541015

BBC Inside Out has discovered that one in 10 of Britain's train carriages dispose toilet waste straight onto the railway tracks.

Presenter Mary Rhodes took a journey across the West Midlands to discover the extent of the problem and was surprised to find raw sewage on rail lines and at railway stations.

She also met Susan Lea from north Wales who has experienced toilet waste from trains on a nearby railway line being strewn across her garden.

But does toilet waste from trains pose a risk to the public and railway workers? BBC Inside Out asked Dr Martin Cox from Coventry University to test random samples from rail tracks for analysis.

The findings revealed there could be potential risks to public health from raw sewage being found on railway lines.

The Rail Delivery Group, which represents Britain's train operating companies, told Inside Out the industry is investing millions of pounds on new trains with sealed toilet tanks and that they are retro-fitting some older trains.

Typical media reporting which frankly twisted the words of the university expert to say what they wanted to say. The major flaw in the report is that they quite deliberately avoided getting (or showing) him to quantify the level of risk. It was classic "the risk is not zero, therefore the sky must be falling".

I'm not saying that it's pointless moving towards improving the situation, just that it's being presented in a highly biased fashion. It is something that has been going on for over 100 years, and there's no evidence being presented of actual health problems linked to it. If the risk was significant, it's reasonable to expect that it would be easy to find and present credible evidence of problems arising from it.