Petition to commission new study into re-opening Matlock to Buxton

[RichmondCommu]

As I said before, it would take away a much-loved resource for walkers, cyclists and horse riders, in which a lot of money has been invested. If you have been on it, you would have seen that single-track coexistence is impossible; and in any case, slow single-track working would largely defeat the object of its reopening. It's easy to say that these users could go elsewhere, but the similar trails - the Tissington and High Peak Trails - are in open limestone plateau scenery, very different from the valleys that the Monsal Trail winds through.

I'm glad we're not the only ones who enjoy walking on it! Walking out of Monsal Head tunnel and seeing the view from the viaduct is fantastic. The area around Cheedale is just as nice too.
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I think people are underestimating the value of what could be a direct connection from London to the Peak District, which is currently rather poorly served. The advantages of a direct connection over changes are underestimated by enthusiasts who don't see them as an issue, but families and the like would rather not have them.

There's also the fact that an extension of all Derby services to Manchester would provide vital rail capacity, as well as a better connection from the East Midlands to Manchester, or even something like a CrossCountry route from Stansted to Manchester Airport.

I'm not denying any of the above. However in my opinion Buxton is not much of a tourist destination in the same way that other areas of the Peak District are. I do think that there is case for reopening the line (as I have said many times in the past) but not to Buxton.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm not denying any of the above. However in my opinion Buxton is not much of a tourist destination in the same way that other areas of the Peak District are. I do think that there is case for reopening the line (as I have said many times in the past) but not to Buxton.

I'm not quite sure what you're proposing - a through route would be vital for it to be economically viable (and useful for connecting Derby/London and Manchester or any potential XC route), unless you want a new route, which would be expensive, environmentally costly and a bit pointless when a perfectly good route already exists?

The line would not just have to open to Buxton, and passes through more scenic areas of the Lakes that are more tourist friendly.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm glad we're not the only ones who enjoy walking on it! Walking out of Monsal Head tunnel and seeing the view from the viaduct is fantastic. The area around Cheedale is just as nice too.
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I'm not denying any of the above. However in my opinion Buxton is not much of a tourist destination in the same way that other areas of the Peak District are. I do think that there is case for reopening the line (as I have said many times in the past) but not to Buxton.

But Buxton is the main commercial centre of that part of the world and is useful to tourists and others as a base, and for other activities. Just because the best walks may not be in Buxton itself doesn't mean that tourists don't do anything other than walk !

It won't happen anyway as there would be too little demand throughout much of the year.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm not quite sure what you're proposing - a through route would be vital for it to be economically viable (and useful for connecting Derby/London and Manchester or any potential XC route), unless you want a new route, which would be expensive, environmentally costly and a bit pointless when a perfectly good route already exists?

The line would not just have to open to Buxton, and passes through more scenic areas of the Lakes that are more tourist friendly.

Lakes?? Its the Peak District, not the Lakes! The Lakes are in the North West.

What I'm proposing is exactly what the Midland Railway built via Peak Forest, the only exception being the short bit of track at Millersdale Junction to connect with the existing freight only line to Buxton.
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But Buxton is the main commercial centre of that part of the world and is useful to tourists and others as a base, and for other activities. Just because the best walks may not be in Buxton itself doesn't mean that tourists don't do anything other than walk !

It won't happen anyway as there would be too little demand throughout much of the year.

I agree that Buxton is the main commercial centre of the High Peak but that doesn't change anything! All its commercial links are with Manchester and Stockport, not Derby or that matter Matlock. Reinstating the direct link south wouldn't change any of that as it would still be quicker to get to Manchester which of course offers many more opportunities.

I concur that not all tourists like walking / cycling but they don't visit Buxton! They are far more likely to visit far more attractive places; Youlgreave, Hartington, Castleton, Bakewell, Ashford in the Water etc. Unless you're planning to see a theatre production (in which case you've no chance of getting back by train) Buxton offers very little for the tourist.

 

[yorksrob]

As I said before, it would take away a much-loved resource for walkers, cyclists and horse riders, in which a lot of money has been invested. If you have been on it, you would have seen that single-track coexistence is impossible; and in any case, slow single-track working would largely defeat the object of its reopening. It's easy to say that these users could go elsewhere, but the similar trails - the Tissington and High Peak Trails - are in open limestone plateau scenery, very different from the valleys that the Monsal Trail winds through.

Sorry, but the route was built at considerable expense to carry trains. If you want a nice cycle route, build one. I don't see why every potential railway reinstatement should be held to ransom for this, and if this is going to be the case every time we try to progress the network, I really don't see any benefit to turning track beds into cycle paths over building houses and factories on them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lakes?? Its the Peak District, not the Lakes! The Lakes are in the North West.

I am so glad to see your clarification of this matter. For a moment, even though knowing of the area since first visiting it in my childhood in the early 1950's, I was rather taken aback by these mythical lakes being mentioned.

Perhaps there are underground lakes in the caves and caverns that the Peak District offers to its visitors.

 

[Oliver]

The problem with petitions is that there is no cost attached to supporting something which might cost millions. It's too easy to ask other people to pay for something you want. If, for example, each signatory had to pay £5 towards the cost of the study, do you think 2000 people would have signed?

 

[edwin_m]

I think people are underestimating the value of what could be a direct connection from London to the Peak District, which is currently rather poorly served. The advantages of a direct connection over changes are underestimated by enthusiasts who don't see them as an issue, but families and the like would rather not have them.

There's also the fact that an extension of all Derby terminating services to Manchester would provide vital rail capacity, as well as a better connection from the East Midlands to Manchester, or there could even be something like a CrossCountry route from Stansted to Manchester Airport.

What Derby terminating services? They regular hourly one from London was extended through to Sheffield a couple of years ago. So a through London train would need another path out of St Pancras, not to mention platform capacity there.

There is talk of another fast train on the Hope Valley each hour once Northern Hub capacity works are complete. This could possibly run from Manchester or Liverpool to Derby or somewhere beyond via the Dore South Curve. Sending it via Bakewell instead would speed it up a bit, but only if it was limited stop (say Bakewell and Matlock). Opening the other stations would need an extension of the Matlock stopping service, which could perhaps go to Buxton instead of Manchester.

Of the former stations on the route only Bakewell serves more than a village, and the station is half a mile from the centre up a steep hill. The buses run down the main street.

 

[yorksrob]

What Derby terminating services? They regular hourly one from London was extended through to Sheffield a couple of years ago. So a through London train would need another path out of St Pancras, not to mention platform capacity there.

There is talk of another fast train on the Hope Valley each hour once Northern Hub capacity works are complete. This could possibly run from Manchester or Liverpool to Derby or somewhere beyond via the Dore South Curve. Sending it via Bakewell instead would speed it up a bit, but only if it was limited stop (say Bakewell and Matlock). Opening the other stations would need an extension of the Matlock stopping service, which could perhaps go to Buxton instead of Manchester.

Of the former stations on the route only Bakewell serves more than a village, and the station is half a mile from the centre up a steep hill. The buses run down the main street.

Another fast train on the Hope Valley is all well and good, however, local services on that route are inadequate. Plus running via the Dore curve, won't exactly act as a gateway to the Peak District in the way that a fast service calling at Bakewell and Matlock would.

 

[Mikey C]

Sorry, but the route was built at considerable expense to carry trains. If you want a nice cycle route, build one. I don't see why every potential railway reinstatement should be held to ransom for this, and if this is going to be the case every time we try to progress the network, I really don't see any benefit to turning track beds into cycle paths over building houses and factories on them.

But then the walking/cycle trail is now one of the main attractions in the area, when I went to Bakewell in September it was one of the first things I wanted to do.

Unlike cities, the attractions in the area are more scattered about, it's not as if many people would take a weekend break in Bakewell and just stay there, most people in my B&B were there to visit Chatsworth, which is a few miles out of town.
As I said earlier, Buxton tends to get many older visitors, a lot of whom use coach tours anyway, and I can't imagine many of them choosing the train instead.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

But then the walking/cycle trail is now one of the main attractions in the area, when I went to Bakewell in September it was one of the first things I wanted to do.

Unlike cities, the attractions in the area are more scattered about, it's not as if many people would take a weekend break in Bakewell and just stay there, most people in my B&B were there to visit Chatsworth, which is a few miles out of town.
As I said earlier, Buxton tends to get many older visitors, a lot of whom use coach tours anyway, and I can't imagine many of them choosing the train instead.

When I worked for Midland Mainline a few years ago we introduced a Chatsworth Day Out ticket, an all-inclusive package including train travel to Chesterfield, connecting with a coach to Chatsworth. Although initially popular, out of the holiday season numbers were small and the package was discontinued after a couple of years. If there was more than one person travelling it was more convenient and cost effective to take the car.

As far as I know, there never was a rail connection running anywhere near Chatsworth so I doubt any reopened line would tap into that market.

As for Buxton. although the town's very pleasant, it's actually outside the Peak District and the surrounding countryside isn't that scenic, being mainly quarries and unremarkable farmland.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for Buxton. although the town's very pleasant, it's actually outside the Peak District and the surrounding countryside isn't that scenic, being mainly quarries and unremarkable farmland.

Say what you like about Buxton and prospective tourists, it does have an iconic Opera House, a high-quality hotel, a well that gives free water from the deep depths to the general public and a number of caves within easy reach.

 

[johnnychips]

Sorry, but the route was built at considerable expense to carry trains.

and abandoned.
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As far as I know, there never was a rail connection running anywhere near Chatsworth so I doubt any reopened line would tap into that market.

When the line first opened from Matlock to Rowsley, there was a connecting service by horse and trap to Chatsworth.

 

[yorksrob]

and abandoned..

So what.

 

[RichmondCommu]

and abandoned.

However in all fairness that all took place in a very different era for rail transport. With the benefit of hindsight I don't think the route would have been closed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However in all fairness that all took place in a very different era for rail transport. With the benefit of hindsight I don't think the route would have been closed.

Would you say that also applies to the Great Central Railway main line?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Would you say that also applies to the Great Central Railway main line?

In all fairness I don't know that much about the GCR main line but as I understand it some of it could have been used as a high speed route so perhaps it would have been worth saving.

 

[185]

Having been to both Bakewell and Buxton this year, I wonder how much revenue this would actually bring, seeing that a lot of the visitors would probably still drive or come in on coach tours anyway.
The disused railway line is also a very popular walk now

As a regular cyclist on that line, I know I will certainly miss it if it closes it's one of my favourite days out.... that said, if it's coming back as a railway, then what the hell, why not. If less vehicles are using the A6, that can only be a good thing - besides there's a second disused railway line on the south of the valley - Buxton-Longridge-Middleton Top-Cromford, a great bike ride.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If less vehicles are using the A6, that can only be a good thing

Looking at all types of road traffic, commercial and private, that use the A6 in that area, I cannot see this railway if reopened making any noticeable difference in traffic density. People will just be passing through the area normally from destinations to other destinations that are totally nothing to do with this route.

What about journeys from Prestbury (near to Macclesfield) to Ashbourne for example that we tend to make through the A6 area in question as we find it a pleasant way to drive. Perhaps you can suggest what happens to our car if we decided to disembark at the rail connection point? Will it be put on a new version of "Motorail" there and then taken off at the nearest rail area that has facilities to handle such new traffic, so we can then continue with the final leg of the journey to Ashbourne?

My good lady wife of some 73 years vintage is now the only one at home who can drive the Range Rover since the stroke that afflicted me in 2012 so I will put this novel "break of road journey" to her when she returns home from visiting her sister in the BUPA nursing home. Her sense of humour is not as "quirky" as mine, so I fear a similar reaction to that which would have occurred if a minister of state had made an outrageous transport proposal to Margaret Thatcher in a Cabinet meeting, when "handbagging" was something to be feared...

 

[Robertj21a]

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I concur that not all tourists like walking / cycling but they don't visit Buxton! They are far more likely to visit far more attractive places; Youlgreave, Hartington, Castleton, Bakewell, Ashford in the Water etc. Unless you're planning to see a theatre production (in which case you've no chance of getting back by train) Buxton offers very little for the tourist.

How strange, I think we must be thinking of a different Buxton ! - it's always bustling when I'm there (most months of the year), plenty of tourists and things to look at/explore. I certainly go to all the places you mention - usually from Buxton !

 

[RichmondCommu]

How strange, I think we must be thinking of a different Buxton ! - it's always bustling when I'm there (most months of the year), plenty of tourists and things to look at/explore. I certainly go to all the places you mention - usually from Buxton !

Yes I think we must be thinking of a different Buxton! If you were to take the train to Buxton you would find it very difficult to get to all the places that I've mentioned. Hence the reason for suggesting that another rail link to Buxton from the south would not be justified.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes I think we must be thinking of a different Buxton! If you were to take the train to Buxton you would find it very difficult to get to all the places that I've mentioned. Hence the reason for suggesting that another rail link to Buxton from the south would not be justified.

Ah, but just a curve from the reinstated main line might be!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ah, but just a curve from the reinstated main line might be!

However curves and and the necessary improvements to the freight only line would not be cheap! In all fairness Buxton already has a decent service from Manchester.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes I think we must be thinking of a different Buxton! If you were to take the train to Buxton you would find it very difficult to get to all the places that I've mentioned. Hence the reason for suggesting that another rail link to Buxton from the south would not be justified.

Well I catch the bus from Derby.....

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well I catch the bus from Derby.....

In which case what's the bus service like from Buxton to Hartington if Buxton is your base? And that's a genuine question although I suspect its pretty poor.

 

[HowardGWR]

In all fairness I don't know that much about the GCR main line but as I understand it some of it could have been used as a high speed route so perhaps it would have been worth saving.

Some of it is to be used as a high speed route (HS2). I also agree with you that had the MR not been closed, it would not now be closed. If rail is to take more through traffic, all available possibilities will be required. A direct line, Manchester to Derby and Notts is required (IMO). I also would not rule out extension to London within a few decades and electrified to boot.

The access for local stuff is all very nice but we will need these extra inter-urban connections.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Some of it is to be used as a high speed route (HS2). I also agree with you that had the MR not been closed, it would not now be closed. If rail is to take more through traffic, all available possibilities will be required. A direct line, Manchester to Derby and Notts is required (IMO). I also would not rule out an extension to London within a few decades and electrified to boot.

The access for local stuff is all very nice but we will need these extra inter-urban connections.

Howard I don't always agree with you but on this occasion I do . There is no reason why we could not run a Dales Rail service on summer Saturdays and Sundays serving some of the closed stations. However as you say the best case for reopening is as a through route.

 

[yorksrob]

However curves and and the necessary improvements to the freight only line would not be cheap! In all fairness Buxton already has a decent service from Manchester.

The section of freight only line from Buxton to the junction is relatively short anyway and would only have Buxton stoppers on it, so probably wouldn't need a lot of work. There would be signalling work required at the junction any way to get the main line up and running, so you might as well pay the extra to get the benefit and have a service that serves the main commerce centre as well.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The section of freight only line from Buxton to the junction is relatively short anyway and would only have Buxton stoppers on it, so probably wouldn't need a lot of work. There would be signalling work required at the junction any way to get the main line up and running, so you might as well pay the extra to get the benefit and have a service that serves the main commerce centre as well.

Looking at Google Sat view, the former Midland branch platform at Buxton still appears to be in situ. I think this was last used when Peak Rail had a presence there, also the former Buxton Water buildings in the view have now been demolished, so that may simplify reinstatement.

 

[johnnychips]

As I try to keep saying, the railway - rightly or wrongly - abandoned this route ages ago. It now provides a traffic-free environment for walkers, cyclists and equestrians. A lot of money has been spent for their benefit. It is not acceptable to say that they can use the Tissington and High Peak trails instead as the landscape is different. It will not happen.