Rolling stock announcement regarding TPE (updated)

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wild stab in the dark here, but I believe the Cumbrian Coast is operated by 153s and 156s, that the S&C uses 158s and that TPE are getting some 156s on loan from Northern in May. I realise I might be guilty of getting five from two lots of two here, but I would be a little surprised if 319s on the MCV-LIV run is going to release 6x 156.

It won't be far off 6x156.
Huyton route DMUs are a mix of 150/156/142, but I would say more than half are usually 156s.
They probably need 12-15 units for this (depending on what happens to Blackpool services), so 6x156 units released is quite possible.
There's also the CLC stoppers to worry about, and others that currently route into Liverpool (eg Warrington-Ellesmere Port), but again they are a mix.

 

[Philip]

Any idea what will happen after February next year? Once all the 170s leave will TPE replace the remaining 185s on NW services with 156s? What about the remaing direct Barrow/Windermere services?

 

[158722]

It won't be far off 6x156.
Huyton route DMUs are a mix of 150/156/142, but I would say more than half are usually 156s.
They probably need 12-15 units for this (depending on what happens to Blackpool services), so 6x156 units released is quite possible.
There's also the CLC stoppers to worry about, and others that currently route into Liverpool (eg Warrington-Ellesmere Port), but again they are a mix.

Liverpool-Warrington requires 2 diagrams, Airport services 3, Victoria 3 and Wigan 4. Thats 12 in total and I suspect some of the Wigans run in pairs.
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These diagrams are 'doing the rounds' -

05:19 PRE - CAR [09:24]
09:38 CAR - BIF [12:08]
12:31 BIF - CAR [14:56]
15:12 CAR - PRE [19:30]


06:15 CAR - BIF [08:43]
09:08 BIF - CAR [11:34]
11:50 CAR - BIF [14:19]
14:52 BIF - CAR [17:19]

Indeed, those were 'suggested' to me as the ones by a source who should know, though the possibility of the 0559 ex-Maryport starting back at Carlisle has also been mentioned as opposed to the 0615 ex-Carlisle.

 

[CC 72100]

I don't know much (anything?!) about the area, but those turnarounds at Carlisle on diagram 1 look rather tight. I'm sure people with greater knowledge of operations in the area can say whether they are risky or not.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It won't be far off 6x156.
Huyton route DMUs are a mix of 150/156/142, but I would say more than half are usually 156s.
They probably need 12-15 units for this (depending on what happens to Blackpool services), so 6x156 units released is quite possible.
There's also the CLC stoppers to worry about, and others that currently route into Liverpool (eg Warrington-Ellesmere Port), but again they are a mix.

The loco-hauled services will likely only release two units anyway.

MCV-LIV requires three units, none of the units are doubled up all day, so it is likely that MCV-LIV frees up 3 units. I seem to keep missing the announcements on LIV-WBQ, but I presume these will also go over to electric units, that would be another two units. of course, not all of them will be 156s and it does not necessarily follow that these five units can displace five 156s elsewhere.

Wigan and Preston services are noted as going electric later than the Man Vic services, which would be too late for the TPE services.

Liverpool-Warrington requires 2 diagrams, Airport services 3, Victoria 3 and Wigan 4. Thats 12 in total and I suspect some of the Wigans run in pairs....

Pairs may be pairs of 142s though. Don't forget that Liverpool-Preston is to go electric too....

 

[Bevan Price]

Then people put up with it. TPE isn't supposed to be some sort of safeguard about not travelling in Pacers.

I expect, though, as TPE staff are being trained on 156s rather than 142s, that it will be a 156 whatever, to the detriment of a Northern service which might get Pacered.

l

Would it make sense for TPE to hire Northern crews, rather than to train some of its own crews on Class 156 ?

 

[alexl92]

Would it make sense for TPE to hire Northern crews, rather than to train some of its own crews on Class 156 ?

I imagine that Northern's 156-trained crews may sign other classes too which means that they're probably too useful for Northern to spare. Aren't they already struggling for train crews?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it make sense for TPE to hire Northern crews, rather than to train some of its own crews on Class 156 ?

I don't think Northern have any spare.

Neil
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Any idea what will happen after February next year? Once all the 170s leave will TPE replace the remaining 185s on NW services with 156s? What about the remaing direct Barrow/Windermere services?

I believe the North West Express services are *all* planned to move to Northern at the franchise change, and so I guess will be 156 or 158 operated. Windermere will be electrified (it's a cheap job) and I guess will be Class 319s, though I don't know where it will run to/from - Preston might be a reasonable call.

Neil

 

[thealexweb]

I don't think Northern have any spare.

Neil
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I believe the North West Express services are *all* planned to move to Northern at the franchise change, and so I guess will be 156 or 158 operated. Windermere will be electrified (it's a cheap job) and I guess will be Class 319s, though I don't know where it will run to/from - Preston might be a reasonable call.

Neil

If Preston is going to be the terminus is there scope for the Preston to Hazel Grove semi-express to be merged in to it. It is a route that will be 319 friendly post December 2016. I am a user of the current direct Bolton to Windermere services so I am one of those keen for a good replacement if the current setup is ending.

 

[snail]

starmill, you will not move down because there are no overhead grab ropes or poles?!? Come on!

Leave him alone. It's people like him that give me some space on a 156, if I can squeeze past them in the vestibule. Much more comfortable to lean against a seat back or hold one of the handles, no one sitting has ever complained.

The other advantage of standing in the aisle is that you are first in line for a seat when someone gets up to leave the train...

 

[Darren R]

I don't know much (anything?!) about the area, but those turnarounds at Carlisle on diagram 1 look rather tight. I'm sure people with greater knowledge of operations in the area can say whether they are risky or not.

Actually, for Northern, those Carlisle turnaround times are quite generous!

 

[samj]

Looks like some interesting changes ahead. Liverpool-Wigan stoppers to be run by 319s in May as well? I wonder if all electrification will be complete.

 

[Starmill]

Honestly? I despair.

 

[The Ham]

I imagine that Northern's 156-trained crews may sign other classes too which means that they're probably too useful for Northern to spare. Aren't they already struggling for train crews?

Although, if TPE crew are free because of Northern crew working TPE routes it is possible that TPE crew could then run Northern routes. This could result in a net result of zero extra staff needed for either franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly? I despair.

Why such despair of Class 319s? They're basically electric Class 150/2s - 150s without the almighty engine racket.

The silence at a station is bliss.

Neil
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Although, if TPE crew are free because of Northern crew working TPE routes it is possible that TPE crew could then run Northern routes. This could result in a net result of zero extra staff needed for either franchise.

Or, as TPE crews presumably only sign 185s and 170s, none of which Northern have, they just do what they actually did which seems quite sensible to me, i.e. train some TPE crews on 156s.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Looks like some interesting changes ahead. Liverpool-Wigan stoppers to be run by 319s in May as well? I wonder if all electrification will be complete.

Wigan/Preston stoppers were announced as 'later in the year' (than the MCV-LIV stoppers), so after the May change.

 

[WatcherZero]

They were but this deal brings forward the electric cascade to Northern. Status now is ASAP.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool-Warrington requires 2 diagrams, Airport services 3, Victoria 3 and Wigan 4. Thats 12 in total and I suspect some of the Wigans run in pairs.

There are some 4 car workings on Liverpool-Wigan services and also peak time services between Liverpool and Victoria. However, you really need to know the exact diagrams to assess whether all the DMUs can be freed up. You could think the 16:58 Manchester-Hazel Grove service could be operated by a 319 to free up a DMU but the same DMU is needed for the 17:58 Stockport-Chester service.
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Wigan/Preston stoppers were announced as 'later in the year' (than the MCV-LIV stoppers), so after the May change.

They were but this deal brings forward the electric cascade to Northern. Status now is ASAP.

September will be the earliest any Liverpool-Blackpool services are split. The split is not confirmed as despite the wording of the DfT press release Northern have only been asked to meet with stakeholders to discuss whether or not a split would be a good idea in the overall scheme of things. I imagine if Northern went to Blackpool council and suggested splitting the service in May they won't get a polite response!

I'd make an educated guess that 2/3rds of services will be split to keep some through services and keeping direct evening services will be a priority with the illuminations season happening in the autumn.

 

[D6975]

Actually, for Northern, those Carlisle turnaround times are quite generous!

And the Carlisle turnaround may well be a fresh loco rather than a run-round.

 

[sprinterguy]

And the Carlisle turnaround may well be a fresh loco rather than a run-round.

If DBSOs are being used then there will be no need for a run-round or a fresh loco.

 

[D6975]

If DBSOs are being used then there will be no need for a run-round or a fresh loco.

But as has been pointed out earlier, there probably won't be any DBSOs available.

 

[sprinterguy]

But as has been pointed out earlier, there probably won't be any DBSOs available.

Fair enough, must have missed that bit. In that case, I would imagine that top and tail would be most likely: It's the arrangement that's been used for almost every loco-hauled passenger operation in the last decade where DVTs haven't been used.

 

[185143]

People are complaining about 156s being used on Manchester-Blackpool? OK, I know its not ideal when it is currently 185s, but look at Liverpool Blackpool. Don't know what's booked, but I got a 142 when I last did it! 142s often appear at MCV to Blackpool too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

People are complaining about 156s being used on Manchester-Blackpool? OK, I know its not ideal when it is currently 185s, but look at Liverpool Blackpool. Don't know what's booked, but I got a 142 when I last did it! 142s often appear at MCV to Blackpool too.

The likelihood is 319 from Liverpool to Preston with the service being split there, so beyond Preston it'll be the usual assortment of Northern DMUs. That's still to be finalised though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

People are complaining about 156s being used on Manchester-Blackpool? OK, I know its not ideal when it is currently 185s, but look at Liverpool Blackpool. Don't know what's booked, but I got a 142 when I last did it! 142s often appear at MCV to Blackpool too.

Liverpool-Blackpool is mostly 150s these days.
Pretty poor for what is supposed to be a premier service.
You are more likely to get a 156 on the Wigan stoppers!

 

[Class83]

People are complaining about 156s being used on Manchester-Blackpool? OK, I know its not ideal when it is currently 185s, but look at Liverpool Blackpool. Don't know what's booked, but I got a 142 when I last did it! 142s often appear at MCV to Blackpool too.

Indeed Liverpool to Blackpool and Liverpool to Manchester Airport would seem to be fairly similar services to Manchester Airport to Blackpool. They make sense as a 'North West Express' group running on whatever is the best available stock Northern have. Hopefully with Blackpool electrification the new franchise will find the money to fit 2+2 seats and some luggage space in the 319s. 160m at the relevant stations to allow double units would be nice but is probably stretching the budget.

 

[Whistler40145]

People shouldn't forget that prior to FTPE taking over Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services, there were no such luxuries as Class 185s, it was a staple diet of 142s, 150s & 156s, unsure whether 158s ever worked.

 

[northwichcat]

People shouldn't forget that prior to FTPE taking over Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services, there were no such luxuries as Class 185s, it was a staple diet of 142s, 150s & 156s, unsure whether 158s ever worked.

Wrong. It was a class 175 route under FNW so it's around 15 years since 1980s Sprinters were used on the route and the route hadn't been going for that long when 175s were introduced. OK sometimes a 142 will have filled in under FNW but then 144s sometimes filled in on TPE services under ATN.

 

[Whistler40145]

I do apologise, you are quite correct that under FNW 142s filled in. I had one on the 03:xx Blackpool North to Manchester Airport, must have been early 2000s.

 

[Philip]

The 1980s DMUs did fill in for class 175s every so often, more so when the 175 fleet was suffering very poor reliability in the early 2000s. This arrangement continued into Northern/TPE days when Northern would let TPE borrow a unit or two whenever they had a 175 shortage. However I seem to remember reading that 175s were prioritised on the Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services above the North Wales services and this was definitely the case in the days of ATW subleasing units to TPE as the requirement was for TPE to have 11 units a day. As a result it was fairly common for 150s and 158s to be working booked 175 turns on both North and South Wales services, until the 185s took over the North West duties.