New North Wales to Manchester train services

[merlodlliw]

True, however then people in those days also didn't mind walking either, walking into town, walking to work, and people used to do their washing by hand.

Level of comfort is relative to what you're used to, and I think most people would be aghast these days if they were to have to walk long distances rather than car or train it, let alone wash by hand.

Slam doors on long distance high speed services have the advantage that it's often quite some time between stops. Holyhead to Picc is around 14 stops with many quite close together. It sounds like quite a work out to me.

Extra staff on board to close doors at smaller stations.

 

[tom1649]

These are 70-seaters and the seats appear to be the same as Arriva's refurbished 158s.

They've ripped out the IC70 seating? I was looking forward to travelling on this too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They've ripped out the IC70 seating? I was looking forward to travelling on this too.

They certainly have moveable armrests.

 

[merlodlliw]

They certainly have moveable armrests.

are we talking Geralds stock on loan to Crewe?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

are we talking Geralds stock on loan to Crewe?

Well, the 3xMk3s in Tuesday's Manchester consist.
They looked newly refurbished to me, rather than hand-me-downs.

 

[Penmorfa]

Extra staff on board to close doors at smaller stations.

Is there meant to be a question mark at the end of that sentence? If so, I can assure you there are no extra staff to deal with doors, there is extra time instead.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Well, the 3xMk3s in Tuesday's Manchester consist.
They looked newly refurbished to me, rather than hand-me-downs.

The Gerald TSOs were refurbuished when introduced, which is only a few years ago. They certainly don't have IC70 seats if that's what you mean by 'hand-me-downs'.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is there meant to be a question mark at the end of that sentence? If so, I can assure you there are no extra staff to deal with doors, there is extra time instead.

I was under the impression there were extra staff on board during the run in period, different to Gerald who has staff at large stations designated to shut doors, Wrexham have an ATW staff man on duty to do this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Gerald TSOs were refurbuished when introduced, which is only a few years ago. They certainly don't have IC70 seats if that's what you mean by 'hand-me-downs'.

ATW/DB were according to spin, arranging to have four mark 3 s refurbed at Crewe works, I am aware one of them is out and about, dont know about the other three.

 

[mrben253]

All 4 mark 3s and 67001 are on today

 

[Soyyo]

I think the point was that in the past, many stations used to be better- staffed, and thus the conductor/guard enjoyed more assistance with closing the doors.

I take your point. Not ideal with so many stops at smaller stations, probably ok at the likes of Warrington, Chester etc.

I remember my small local station used to have about five or six staff when there was one train an hour each way - mind you, it closed in 1963.

 

[merlodlliw]

I take your point. Not ideal with so many stops at smaller stations, probably ok at the likes of Warrington, Chester etc.

I remember my small local station used to have about five or six staff when there was one train an hour each way - mind you, it closed in 1963.

passengers will soon catch on to close the doors at small stations,ATW have a page of advice on door closing in the timetable.

 

[craigybagel]

I was under the impression there were extra staff on board during the run in period, different to Gerald who has staff at large stations designated to shut doors, Wrexham have an ATW staff man on duty to do this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The person at Wrexham is actually a Conductor booked to take their break there who is also given time to assist the dispatch of Gerald. Very few ATW station staff still have dispatch competencies these days.

The conductors working the new service are mostly the same as those who have been working Gerald for years(Shrewsbury and Holyhead depots - Llandudno Junction guards are getting trained as well to provide cover but afaik won't have any booked work on it), so it shouldn't be too big a difference, although admittedly there are more frequent stops on this service.

 

[Adam0984]

On the 0950 this morning and we're currently stood at Llandudno Jcn because the brakes on the leading vehicle are smoking quite badly when braking into stations. Driver and guard as well as dispatch staff stood looking at it whilst they wait for control calling back I hope we make it to Holyhead.
Made it to Holyhead. Turned out to be a dragging brake on 12178 vehicle. Straight turn round no time for food though

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the 0950 this morning and we're currently stood at Llandudno Jcn because the brakes on the leading vehicle are smoking quite badly when braking into stations. Driver and guard as well as dispatch staff stood looking at it whilst they wait for control calling back I hope we make it to Holyhead.
Made it to Holyhead. Turned out to be a dragging brake on 12178 vehicle. Straight turn round no time for food though

40 late at Chester on the return run to Manchester, but seems to have recovered time in the layover before working the 1650 back.

 

[Adam0984]

Yeah I came back on it outbound we stopped at Llandudno Jcn then when we got to Holyhead the fitter had a look and said it was okay to go. Returning we stopped at Abergele for a while whilst the new crew had a look at it and phoned control. Coupled with the fact it's slow going because of the doors it tends to lose a bit of time so can't make up any time. Originally I just assumed the problem was new brake blocks over the weekend and a driver using some harsh braking to make up a bit of time. When it got back to Man Pic it didn't seem to go down to Longsight just to the usual ATW turn round point and came back in for 1650 Llandudno which I got on to Oxford Rd to avoid the crush on the TPE to Scarborough at Pic

 

[Starmill]

Does anyone know what used to work the 1650 Manchester - Llandudno before the Loco Hauled train? 3 Car 175? Now it has the four Mark 3s it is really really busy. Which service in the morning used to be worked by 2x158, was it the 0750? And is that still the case? I am surprised on looking this up to discover it is a Holyhead train. Or did it used to be the splitter to Holyhead & Llandudno? Also that gap between 1144 and 1308 from Llandudno is still there - going to be busy during the summer, or more trains added in May?

I'm slightly confused about how much slack there is in the fleet as it stands, this thread mostly reports on the Loco Hauled train's introduction allowing more 3 car 175 operation on Manchester - South Wales (but with still a number of trains as 2 car). How can there be enough stock for this and the Aberystwyth improvements? Although on balance I should check the Aberystwyth thread!

Finally can anyone put a number on the mark 3s that were refurbished for the Loco Hauled NW train, they had 6 (non-restraunt) before, right? Wikipedia now says 8... so just 2 refurbished? I'm struggling to find the right number? I ask in light of this comment:

67 001 brings the 09:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Holyhead into Flint on a rainy Friday 13 March. It is reported that DB Regio have obtained from storage further Mk3 coaches which were threatened with scrapping, and they may be used on further North Wales services. We await developments. Picture by Tim Rogers.

Thank you.

 

[Rhydgaled]

How can there be enough stock for this and the Aberystwyth improvements? Although on balance I should check the Aberystwyth thread!

According to the Aberystwyth thread, a class 158 is having maintainance time reduced to enable part of the extra service (they were going to axe a Wrexham-Birmingham through service and make passengers change at Shrewsbury off Gerald, but there was outcry so they had to eat into maintenance allowance instead). Also, it may be that some of the existing Aberystwyth services are reduced from 4 coaches to 2 coaches between Machynlleth at Shrewsbury, but the suituation doesn't seem to be entirely clear on that yet.

Finally can anyone put a number on the mark 3s that were refurbished for the Loco Hauled NW train, they had 6 (non-restraunt) before, right? Wikipedia now says 8... so just 2 refurbished? I'm struggling to find the right number?

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that 4 extra TSOs are being done for the new LHCS service. Added to the 6 TSOs and two resturants for Gerald that would bring ATW's fleet up to 10 TSOs a two resturants, BUT the Manchester workings started off using some of the Gerald TSOs, before all 4 extra TSOs had arrived (not sure if they have all arrived even now).

 

[PHILIPE]

Does anyone know what used to work the 1650 Manchester - Llandudno before the Loco Hauled train? 3 Car 175? Now it has the four Mark 3s it is really really busy. Which service in the morning used to be worked by 2x158, was it the 0750? And is that still the case? I am surprised on looking this up to discover it is a Holyhead train. Or did it used to be the splitter to Holyhead & Llandudno? Also that gap between 1144 and 1308 from Llandudno is still there - going to be busy during the summer, or more trains added in May?

I'm slightly confused about how much slack there is in the fleet as it stands, this thread mostly reports on the Loco Hauled train's introduction allowing more 3 car 175 operation on Manchester - South Wales (but with still a number of trains as 2 car). How can there be enough stock for this and the Aberystwyth improvements? Although on balance I should check the Aberystwyth thread!

Finally can anyone put a number on the mark 3s that were refurbished for the Loco Hauled NW train, they had 6 (non-restraunt) before, right? Wikipedia now says 8... so just 2 refurbished? I'm struggling to find the right number? I ask in light of this comment:

Thank you.

The 16 50 from Manchester was formerly a 175/1. The 2x158s did and still do work 07 12 Chester to Manchester Picc returning 08 50 and splitting at Chester for Holyhead and Llandudno.
Everybody was expecting more 3 Car 175s on the Marches but in the end it wasn't to be as everything was concentrated on North Wales.

 

[merlodlliw]

Does anyone know what used to work the 1650 Manchester - Llandudno before the Loco Hauled train? 3 Car 175? Now it has the four Mark 3s it is really really busy. Which service in the morning used to be worked by 2x158, was it the 0750? And is that still the case? I am surprised on looking this up to discover it is a Holyhead train. Or did it used to be the splitter to Holyhead & Llandudno? Also that gap between 1144 and 1308 from Llandudno is still there - going to be busy during the summer, or more trains added in May?

I'm slightly confused about how much slack there is in the fleet as it stands, this thread mostly reports on the Loco Hauled train's introduction allowing more 3 car 175 operation on Manchester - South Wales (but with still a number of trains as 2 car). How can there be enough stock for this and the Aberystwyth improvements? Although on balance I should check the Aberystwyth thread!

Finally can anyone put a number on the mark 3s that were refurbished for the Loco Hauled NW train, they had 6 (non-restraunt) before, right? Wikipedia now says 8... so just 2 refurbished? I'm struggling to find the right number? I ask in light of this comment:

Thank you.

When I used the 1650 loco hauled,month ago, it was full out of Piccadilly,the 1650 and 1719 are the two busiest ATW commuter trains heading to Chester out of Manchester

 

[mikestone1952]

As long ago as August a letter from ATW made no mention of Manchester-South Wales, the trains to be increased were one Cardiff-holyhead turn and the one that goes to Birmingham first thing.
;
As I have stated elsewhere on this forum the December changes did not release anything, and have little if any bearing on the Cmabrian changes.
;

 

[merlodlliw]

As long ago as August a letter from ATW made no mention of Manchester-South Wales, the trains to be increased were one Cardiff-holyhead turn and the one that goes to Birmingham first thing.
;
As I have stated elsewhere on this forum the December changes did not release anything, and have little if any bearing on the Cmabrian changes.
;

I did see in a covering letter with one of the ATW consultation discs, a comment made that it was intended to make more Manchester/South Wales 175s three car,this must have been in 2013? I forget the period, the disc referred to,but I am sure I copied it to several forum members.
Mike Vaughan ATW stakeholder Manager is talking to SCRUA committee at Gobowen Station in April, ill ask him about this,and the extra Mark 3s DB is rumoured to have acquired,according to North Wales rails website this week.

 

[davsarg]

Does anyone know what used to work the 1650 Manchester - Llandudno before the Loco Hauled train? 3 Car 175? Now it has the four Mark 3s it is really really busy. Which service in the morning used to be worked by 2x158, was it the 0750?

I can answer this as these are the trains I mostly catch every on my daily commute into Manchester from Frodsham. Firstly the 16:50 did indeed used to be worked by a 3 car class 175. Occasionally though the loco hauled train does get replaced with something else. Usually a 3 car 175 but the other week we had a 2 x 2car 150 for the whole week - yuck!!

The morning 2X158 service is the one that arrives into Piccadilly at 8:16.

A semi connnected issue i've got to ask about is:

the first two trains into Manchester from Frodsham in the morning are a 3 car 175 at 5:51 which originates in Chester and a 2 car 175 at 6:53 which originates in Llandudno. As you can imagine the 5:51 is very quiet all the way into Manchester, but the 6:53 is heaving even when it arrives at Frodsham! My question therefore is why on earth can't these two sets be swapped around? I mean, how hard can it be? Even if the earlier train was only a 2 car set it would still be reasonably quiet.

Sorry people - rant over.

Sorry just one last thing. I keep seeing the name Gerald mentioned when discussing this route. Who or what is Gerald?

 

[merlodlliw]

I can answer this as these are the trains I mostly catch every on my daily commute into Manchester from Frodsham. Firstly the 16:50 did indeed used to be worked by a 3 car class 175. Occasionally though the loco hauled train does get replaced with something else. Usually a 3 car 175 but the other week we had a 2 x 2car 150 for the whole week - yuck!!

The morning 2X158 service is the one that arrives into Piccadilly at 8:16.

A semi connnected issue i've got to ask about is:

the first two trains into Manchester from Frodsham in the morning are a 3 car 175 at 5:51 which originates in Chester and a 2 car 175 at 6:53 which originates in Llandudno. As you can imagine the 5:51 is very quiet all the way into Manchester, but the 6:53 is heaving even when it arrives at Frodsham! My question therefore is why on earth can't these two sets be swapped around? I mean, how hard can it be? Even if the earlier train was only a 2 car set it would still be reasonably quiet.

Sorry people - rant over.

Sorry just one last thing. I keep seeing the name Gerald mentioned when discussing this route. Who or what is Gerald?

The open access loco hauled train paid for by Welsh Government,runs once a day between Holyhead & Cardiff & return, The English name given the service by the then Minister, is "Gerald Of Wales"

 

[Starmill]

You may have seen people refer to 'Gerald of Wales' / 'Y Gerallt Gymro' as the 'WAG' too I liken this to calling a Class 800/801 Super Express Train 'an IEP'

 

[Rhydgaled]

You may have seen people refer to 'Gerald of Wales' / 'Y Gerallt Gymro' as the 'WAG' too I liken this to calling a Class 800/801 Super Express Train 'an IEP'

'Gerald of Wales' / 'Y Gerallt Gymro' / 'WAG Express' all the same thing and all correct, or almost. The service definiately did carry a 'Y Gerallt Gymro' headboard in the early days (I read somewhere that the headboard was stolen, if true then if that hadn't happened it would presumably would still be carried). 'Y Gerallt Gymro' does translate as something like 'Gerald of Wales' although I've also heard that the translation is 'Gerald The Welshman'. It is/was also funded by the Welsh Assembly Government (WAG) so the title 'WAG Express' is fair enough too.

 

[PHILIPE]

I can answer this as these are the trains I mostly catch every on my daily commute into Manchester from Frodsham. Firstly the 16:50 did indeed used to be worked by a 3 car class 175. Occasionally though the loco hauled train does get replaced with something else. Usually a 3 car 175 but the other week we had a 2 x 2car 150 for the whole week - yuck!!

The morning 2X158 service is the one that arrives into Piccadilly at 8:16.

A semi connnected issue i've got to ask about is:

the first two trains into Manchester from Frodsham in the morning are a 3 car 175 at 5:51 which originates in Chester and a 2 car 175 at 6:53 which originates in Llandudno. As you can imagine the 5:51 is very quiet all the way into Manchester, but the 6:53 is heaving even when it arrives at Frodsham! My question therefore is why on earth can't these two sets be swapped around? I mean, how hard can it be? Even if the earlier train was only a 2 car set it would still be reasonably quiet.

Sorry people - rant over.

Sorry just one last thing. I keep seeing the name Gerald mentioned when discussing this route. Who or what is Gerald?

If you swap over the trains you are referring into Frodsham they will probably be unsuitable for their subsequent workings. It requires a fine balancing act covering the whole day.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

'Gerald of Wales' / 'Y Gerallt Gymro' / 'WAG Express' all the same thing and all correct, or almost. The service definiately did carry a 'Y Gerallt Gymro' headboard in the early days (I read somewhere that the headboard was stolen, if true then if that hadn't happened it would presumably would still be carried). 'Y Gerallt Gymro' does translate as something like 'Gerald of Wales' although I've also heard that the translation is 'Gerald The Welshman'. It is/was also funded by the Welsh Assembly Government (WAG) so the title 'WAG Express' is fair enough too.

I prefer Von Ieuan's Express

 

[davsarg]

If you swap over the trains you are referring into Frodsham they will probably be unsuitable for their subsequent workings. It requires a fine balancing act covering the whole day.

Both trains are class 175s so unsuitability doesn't really apply

 

[PHILIPE]

Both trains are class 175s so unsuitability doesn't really apply

Of course they are. I thought you were complaining that a 175/1 (3 Car) and a 175/0 (2 Car) were working the wrong trains. You said originally that there was an unsuitabity problem, now you're saying there isn't because they are both 175s.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I can answer this as these are the trains I mostly catch every on my daily commute into Manchester from Frodsham. Firstly the 16:50 did indeed used to be worked by a 3 car class 175. Occasionally though the loco hauled train does get replaced with something else. Usually a 3 car 175 but the other week we had a 2 x 2car 150 for the whole week - yuck!!

The morning 2X158 service is the one that arrives into Piccadilly at 8:16.

A semi connnected issue i've got to ask about is:

the first two trains into Manchester from Frodsham in the morning are a 3 car 175 at 5:51 which originates in Chester and a 2 car 175 at 6:53 which originates in Llandudno. As you can imagine the 5:51 is very quiet all the way into Manchester, but the 6:53 is heaving even when it arrives at Frodsham! My question therefore is why on earth can't these two sets be swapped around? I mean, how hard can it be? Even if the earlier train was only a 2 car set it would still be reasonably quiet.

Sorry people - rant over.

Sorry just one last thing. I keep seeing the name Gerald mentioned when discussing this route. Who or what is Gerald?

Until May last year the 0653 was a 3 car unit but this was changed to the current 2 car unit when the new timetable came in.