• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why aren't there more tilting trains in the UK?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,272
Location
Isle of Wight
Hi guys I was just wondering because the class 390 Pendolinos and class 221 Super Voyagers are the only tilting trains in the UK, why aren't there more?

One major issue is the weight penalty - a 4-car Super Voyager weighs 227 tons, around 40 more than a non-tilt Voyager or an extra 10 tons per carriage.

That means higher track access charges on top of the extra cost to buy and maintain such trains.

Chris
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Joshrowlands

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
102
Location
Stoke on Trent
One major issue is the weight penalty - a 4-car Super Voyager weighs 227 tons, around 40 more than a non-tilt Voyager or an extra 10 tons per carriage.

That means higher track access charges on top of the extra cost to buy and maintain such trains.

Chris
Thanks Chris, I never even considered weight and track access charges
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
I thought that one of the problems with the APT was that it was designed that the tilt fully countered the effect of the bend i.e. it tilted too much. This meant that some people felt queasy because their body was telling them two contrary things i.e. you're going around a corner but you're still fully upright. I thought the solution to this on the Pendos was that the tilt did not fully correct the cant on the bend hence no one getting queasy? I may be completely wrong about this!
Having travelled from Euston to Glasgow on the APT, I can assure you that I started to feel queasy around Carlisle and was glad to get off at Glasgow! It was an exciting experience though, looking across the train on the curvy stretches you would see the ballast flashing past, then little other than sky.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,491
Having travelled from Euston to Glasgow on the APT, I can assure you that I started to feel queasy around Carlisle and was glad to get off at Glasgow! It was an exciting experience though, looking across the train on the curvy stretches you would see the ballast flashing past, then little other than sky.

I remember either reading or hearing somewhere once that they made the tilt too good, the body's "internal gyroscope" felt one thing, your eyes said something different, the brain gets confused and that's what made people feel sick
 

DownSouth

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2011
Messages
1,545
I remember either reading or hearing somewhere once that they made the tilt too good, the body's "internal gyroscope" felt one thing, your eyes said something different, the brain gets confused and that's what made people feel sick
100% correct. If the carbody is tilted (whether using active/passive tilt or just the superelevation of the track) to the ideal banking angle for the train's speed on that curve's radius, there will be no lateral force experienced by the passengers, which does indeed cause dizziness and motion sickness for people who are not used to it due to the mixed messages.

The ideal banking angle for a curve on a road or railway can be worked out using the equation tan(A) = v[sup]2[/sup]/g.r where A is the banking angle, v is the vehicle's speed (we're doing some physics here, so this is in metres per second), g is the strength of the earth's gravitational field (9.81 m/s[sup]2[/sup]) and r is the curve's radius in metres.

The ideal banking angle is not actually the most practical banking angle though! If you have vehicles using the curve at different speeds - as is the case for almost all railways and roads, there has to be a compromise found. A train travelling faster than the ideal speed for the curve's banking angle will need to find extra lateral force from the taper of the wheels' profile or from the flange contacting the rail. This is perfectly safe up to a point, but simply not too comfortable for passengers if the lateral forces get too great.

Where tilt-body trains come in handy is when you want to go at a higher speed which is still safe, but not comfortable. By tilting the carbody into the curve, the passengers on board experience a greater banking angle than on a non-tilt train, which in turn reduces the lateral forces they feel and allows the train to travel faster without compromising the comfort of the passengers.

The 'internal gyro' for the human body consists of fluid moving around a number of channels in the brain. If you want to have a play with this, try spinning on the spot a few times (maybe use an office chair) while holding your head straight forward, and then stopping - you'll feel dizzy for a few seconds as the fluids keep on moving. Next, try spinning a few times while using a trick practiced by ballerinas - 'snapping' your head from one angle to the next (maybe 12 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 4 o'clock etc) as your body spins instead of staying face forward - you won't feel dizzy when you stop because the 'snapping' motion doesn't get those fluids moving as much as a constant spinning motion does.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top