Southern cynical over performance?

[FOH]

You can probably tell I'm quite angry over the debacle at London Bridge last night. I had a thought however whether or not Southern are manipulating trains to make stats look better.

My train last night was the 1821 all stops to Victoria. 5 minutes before leaving the stopping pattern was changed to Crystal Palace and Victoria only and left around 1850. I understand skipping stops to get back on schedule and stop affecting other trains but this one could've left just a few minutes later and picked up the path of the 1853.

Is it likely that the above was simply them doing the best job for passengers or were they simply maximizing the chances of arriving on time at Victoria and hitting performance stats?

(FYI the 1853 eventually left and omitted the local stations as well).

 

[zoneking]

Yes, two nights in a row, so much for Monday night being an "unusual occurrence". I predict there will be problems every evening for the next 2 years and most mornings. Most trains delayed this morning from Purley. No drivers, unusual formations. The 0715 from Caterham was 8 car instead of 4 because the 0701 was cancelled.

 

[FOH]

Yes agreed zoneking and it was poor this morning too. I don't however want this to be a rant thread.
I have just found the train on realtimetrains website and see it left at 1845 (I really thought it was later than that) but I still do wonder what's going on with skipping zone 2 & 3 stations.

 

[tsr]

Cancellations at intermediate stations will (well, should eventually, in the case of these disruptions) result in a "fine" being allocated to whomever caused the delay leading to the skipping of the stops. Whilst sometimes I disagree with certain calls being skipped on Sussex Coast routes, in Metro areas the frequency of the service leads to a huge build-up of trains and, in turn, it is difficult to predict what will happen if you don't get stock to the correct locations as quickly as possible. Turning trains back short of destinations can often lead to worse overcrowding, congestion at crossovers, and displacement of crew from major stations, so it can be better to simply run as fast as possible on the original line of route, serving just about as many people as is practical.

Hindsight, as we know, is a wonderful thing, and sometimes it turns out that an "all-stations" or slow service is immediately behind a train run fast, which is great - but on other occasions, especially when new track layouts (eg. at London Bridge) make the service somewhat less predictable, it can be quite hard to recover the service to passengers, even if the overall operation of the railway is being improved by moving stock and crews for later in the day.

There is also the issue of vacating platforms as quickly as possible, and both making sure the train is not physically present for too long at termini, but also making sure there is no last-minute scramble resulting in horrendous, disorganised overcrowding. In your example, the inconvenience to passengers and effective abandonment of the service may seem to have outweighed this, but picking up a path of a train when it is not expected the service would be delayed enough to do so, and then having to deal with confusion over which train is which, is enough to give anyone a headache.

 

[jimjim]

As soon as they remove a stop the train fails PPM so although it may arrive within 5min at destination it doesn't count for the stats.
The train could have taken the path of the later service but the traincrew from the earlier service may not have the hours or the inclination to work the 1853. They would then be late for their next working so you never recover the service.

 

[FOH]

Cancellations at intermediate stations will (well, should eventually, in the case of these disruptions) result in a "fine" being allocated to whomever caused the delay leading to the skipping of the stops.

As soon as they remove a stop the train fails PPM so although it may arrive within 5min at destination it doesn't count for the stats.

Both, I always thought it was only the destination arrival time that mattered for stats so it's great to know otherwise.

Not so cynical as I thought then - presuming the missed stops are recorded somewhere correctly as on realtimetrains they all look like they stopped at New Cross Gate.

Thanks

 

[87015]

Running some trains fast is acceptable, you can't defend leaving gaps like this:

London Bridge Sydenham line stoppers;
1720 10L start
1738 12L start
1753 14L start, run fast to Crystal Palce
1806 CAN
1821 24L, fast to Palace then Vic only(!)
1836 CAN
1853 38L, fast to Palace then Vic only
1906 36L start

So no train between 1750 (which would have been off the board at booked time 1736 as usual for LB) and 1942 for stations down the Sydenham corridor. Of course running the stoppers fast actually only claws back 3-5 minutes because LO are actually running services (and being delayed by overloading due to no/out of course Southern) and just causes even more congestion at LB.

You don't know when to make the call and go to Canada Water because information provision is a fiasco - they don't put anything up on the boards worth having, just ticks over from minute to minute.

 

[otomous]

In situations like this it's less about serving particular stations and more about trying to prevent the service disintegrating irrevocably for the rest of the day. I was working one LBridge to Vic train which if it had run normally would have caused an Epsom train from Victoria to be cancelled too. Which was already sitting full and ready to go when I reached it over five minutes late. As it was the stock I brought over had to be then run fast to its next destination to make its return trip. Crew will generally participate in being moved off their booked workings to help put but ultimately there comes a point at which they have to take a break, or even hit the limit for hours allowed in the cab for the day, so as soon as you start getting off your schedule on any large scale you start walking across the tightrope. And you can be sure there are no spares just waiting at Victoria when it's this disrupted.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Trains which skip stops fail PPM. Whether this results in a "fine"- and who pays it- will depend on what caused the service to fail in the first place. If it is to do with the engineering works then rest assured Southern will actually be profiting from it, as Network Rail will be to blame.

What stop skipping helps is service recovery. Skipping the stops, or stopping early, means the train can get back on time quicker, meaning passengers later in the day will not be inconvenienced as much. If everything is up the spout then trying to run the original timetable will simply slow down service recovery. Whether you'd rather have the service recover quicker or whether you'd rather avoid stop skipping will depend on when you're wanting to travel

 

[Clip]

Lets be fair though they would've had to fit in with LO after NXG and maybe they should've told people to go to Canada Water on the Jubilee to catch any stoppers.

 

[Deepgreen]

The weather added to the fun this morning when freezing rain fell briefly in Surrey and Hampshire. At least one class 377 was stuck between Reigate and Redhill and had to be rescued. It later formed part of the 0840 from Redhill, but hadn't made it as far as its booked Reigate destination on the outward journey. It left Redhill 5 late and arrived at LB 16 late (about average these days). Pyrotechnics from Redhill to Merstham tunnel with iced juice rails. After East Croydon the recorded announcements were telling us that the next station would be Merstham!

 

[LLivery]

As someone who lives in Sydenham, the last three days have been a total disgrace to say the least. Today I turned up for the 11:22 from Syd to East Croydon (Caterham service) at 11:15. At 11:16 the 10:52 turned up, with the 11:22 cancelled. I jumped on and the 10:52 arrived at ECR 26 minutes late, now only going as far as Purley. This just had me wondering why not just cancel the 10:52 and run the 11:22 instead? Surely that would be been more logical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Running some trains fast is acceptable, you can't defend leaving gaps like this:

London Bridge Sydenham line stoppers;
1720 10L start
1738 12L start
1753 14L start, run fast to Crystal Palce
1806 CAN
1821 24L, fast to Palace then Vic only(!)
1836 CAN
1853 38L, fast to Palace then Vic only
1906 36L start

So no train between 1750 (which would have been off the board at booked time 1736 as usual for LB) and 1942 for stations down the Sydenham corridor. Of course running the stoppers fast actually only claws back 3-5 minutes because LO are actually running services (and being delayed by overloading due to no/out of course Southern) and just causes even more congestion at LB.

You don't know when to make the call and go to Canada Water because information provision is a fiasco - they don't put anything up on the boards worth having, just ticks over from minute to minute.

It just beggars belief. Why rid the stop at Sydenham even though it has to pass through on the slow? Or not at least stop at NGX so people can change for a LO?