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Petition to commission new study into re-opening Matlock to Buxton

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CyrusWuff

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Psst...If you want any chance of getting the matter debated in Parliament (though the trigger for that is 100,000 signatures), the petition needs to be created on the HM Government e-petitions site.

And as nice as it would be to have an additional Transpennine route, it ain't likely to happen any time soon...
 
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RichmondCommu

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Having been to both Bakewell and Buxton this year, I wonder how much revenue this would actually bring, seeing that a 6 lot of the visitors would probably still drive or come in on coach tours anyway.

Well exactly! Spend a day in the Peak District and you will hear a whole variety of accents, many of whom will find it quicker to get to the Peak District by car if the route was to reopen.

I concur with others that the A6 is often tedious beyond belief and car park spaces quickly fill up but I don't think reopening the line would be enough to deter car users.

In my opinion the only hope for the route would be to reopen it from Peak Forest to Matlock. Matlock to Buxton will generate very little traffic.
 

johnnychips

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I might be wrong but isn't that bit of the route also covered by Peak Village outlet car park?

Edit: no!
 
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Mugby

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I think they would like to but they can't afford to replace the bridge at Rowsley.

Maybe not so much affording a replacement bridge but the level of the A6 road was raised when the old bridge was removed, to alleviate flooding.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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By using the bus from all those towns that do have a bus service to Bakewell, you are saved the hassle (and cost) of parking spaces. I have heard comments about some bus routes being rather circuitous, but this can mean enjoying sights that you will not normally have chance to enjoy whilst driving.

Whilst not exactly being a bus service in the said area, a good example of such a bus service is the 442 from Buxton to Ashbourne.
 

tocguard

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Just to clarify a few matters.

The petition is not aimed at getting the dft onside etc. It is to show public support into the commissioning of a new feasibility study, an up to date one as the last one was a decade ago and it is believed that the whole situation is very different now.

The petition is addressed to Derbyshire County Council to commission the study as they did previously.

Whether the line may or may not generate a certain number of passengers between 2 points is for the study to look at. In my eyes, the Bakewell to Matlock section, if reinstated, would be of most benefit to the public. Bakewell is a very busy market and tourist town and just the starting point of many a visitor. Regardless of whether there are bus services or parking spaces, they are not particularly attractive compared to the provision of a train service, especially travelling in from the south along the line of the A6. As mentioned before, buses are not part necessarily cheap, or reliable. The journey would take longer by both bus and car too. In addition, Derbyshire Dales car parks are currently £1.20 per hour!

The Buxton south section would be of most benefit to freight and use as a diversionary route.

There are only 8 miles of missing track and although I appreciate the expense, we are not talking miles and miles of missing track. I still do not understand why the Beeching report would recommend closure beyond Matlock and not Bakewell. As it is, Buxton still has a service, Matlock still has a service, Bakewell has nothing.
 

pro4600

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From Haddon Hall to Chee Dale it is now the Monsal Trail. They have recently reopened and lit the tunnels on the line. As such it is extremely popular with walkers, cyclists and horse riders. No chance of reopening.

The Monsal Trail only runs as far as Coombes Road in Bakewell. The section through Haddon Hall and Rowsley is still abandoned.

Reinstatement would require the Monsal Trail between Coombes Road and Bakewell Station to be returned as a railway. Unless of course a new central station at Bakewell was built near the showground, but that looks expensive.
 

Bertie the bus

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There are only 8 miles of missing track and although I appreciate the expense, we are not talking miles and miles of missing track. I still do not understand why the Beeching report would recommend closure beyond Matlock and not Bakewell. As it is, Buxton still has a service, Matlock still has a service, Bakewell has nothing.

Is this what the petition is really about - you not understanding a decision made 50 years ago? Do you really think that whether you understand the decision or not is important or a valid reason for the county council spending a significant amount of money on a new report that will no doubt come to the same conclusion as the last one?

What freight that is currently forced to use road transport will be carried by rail? What passenger services will be diverted via the route? Services that will actually, in the real world be diverted, not ones you think could theoretically be.

The fact is reopening rural routes in England is not on the agenda of any serious political party so even if a new study did prove it had a business case it still wouldn't reopen.
 

yorksrob

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Is this what the petition is really about - you not understanding a decision made 50 years ago? Do you really think that whether you understand the decision or not is important or a valid reason for the county council spending a significant amount of money on a new report that will no doubt come to the same conclusion as the last one?

What freight that is currently forced to use road transport will be carried by rail? What passenger services will be diverted via the route? Services that will actually, in the real world be diverted, not ones you think could theoretically be.

The fact is reopening rural routes in England is not on the agenda of any serious political party so even if a new study did prove it had a business case it still wouldn't reopen.

A decision taken 50 years ago isn't really relevant to the situation today, which is why the case needs to be reinvestigated.

As recently as ten years ago, the County investigated the value of local trains along the route, so there is obviously an interest.

Last year, NR consulted on capacity issues on the Hope Valley, which could bring alternative longer distance services to the route. What nobody has done so far is to look at how the route could serve both of these purposes at the same time.
 

mwmbwls

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A decision taken 50 years ago isn't really relevant to the situation today, which is why the case needs to be reinvestigated.As recently as ten years ago, the County investigated the value of local trains along the route, so there is obviously an interest.

The DCC 2004 report prepared by Scott Wilson can be found here.
https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/images/derby-mancester-rail_main_report_full_tcm44-21359.pdf
Prepared in accordance with the somewhat restrictive rail investment criteria at that that time the report did not consider the broader context of rengineering services in North West and North Derbyshire.

I wrote to them at the time suggesting they were possibly not asking the correct questions and hence not getting the right answers. I received a polite reply disagreeing with my suggestion.

"The documentation that has been published appears to dwell upon the mechanical reinstatement of the rail infrastructure and upon the micro impact upon the residents of the Matlock Buxton corridor. I would like to suggest the promoters also consider the following points.

• In addition to the Matlock Buxton corridor the scheme should examine the implications for Buxton as a town and the Buxton to Manchester corridor. Apart from the A6 Chapel bypass no significant improvement has been made to this corridor in the last thirty years. Buxton has declined as the mineral extraction industry has restructured and light automotive-based industries have migrated overseas. Agriculture is destined to decline in the light of European Union initiatives. It is therefore necessary for Buxton to move towards knowledge based “sunrise” businesses. A driver for this will be the establishment of the University of Derby campus in the town. However for this to succeed there is a need for the regeneration of communications from Buxton not just to the East Midlands or North West but also to London and the South East. The present railway service to Buxton is an amalgam of the two competing railway companies, the L&NWR and the Midland and the Beeching plan. The plan to resite the station at Buxton is excellent. I assume that this will be adjacent to existing Bridge Street car park. Having established this new station the opportunity should be taken to create services that:
o Run from Manchester to Saint Pancras via Stockport, Buxton, Matlock, Derby and Leicester.
o Recast the Buxton Manchester services to incorporate fast or semi fast trains thereby reducing the current journey time from Buxton to Stockport and Manchester thereby providing an incentive switch transport modes
o Recast services from Manchester such that they originate at Manchester Piccadilly. This would mitigate existing pressure on the Piccadilly, Oxford Road Windsor link section and improve the robustness of the timetable to Buxton and Matlock.
o Recast services on the Midland Mainline Services whereby instead of proceeding from Derby to Sheffield fast services from London would be diverted to Manchester. The SRA “Project Rio” service from Manchester to Saint Pancras has opened up the prospect of trains running direct from Chesterfield to Leicester via Toton. Diversion of these trains from Manchester to Sheffield could reduce the journey times from Sheffield and Chesterfield, another key part of Derbyshire, to the capital. An augmented Virgin Cross Country or Central Trains service could safeguard the interests of passengers travelling from Derby to Chesterfield and Sheffield.
o The essence of these suggestions is that the Matlock to Buxton reopening should be seen not only as an incremental piece of Derbyshire’s infrastructure but should fit into a wider strategy rail strategy and a wider economic development strategy. This predicates an infrastructure requirement that allows for inter regional services to be operated over the line together with regional semi fast, local and freight services. This would entail an infrastructure concept framed around “Voyager and Meridian” train types rather than a minimal Sprinter based approach
• With regard to freight I was somewhat surprised by the comment that it was improbable that freight services other than mineral trains would run over the line. I would imagine it is regarded as part of the core vision by the promoters that the mineral extraction industries of the Peak should be enabled economically but with the minimum of adverse environmental impact. This criterion would shape the infrastructure envelope by dictating maximum axle loads and probably loading gauge. The Freight Forum recognises that pathing for freight trains upon the west and east coast main lines is a problem – one that is destined to become more complex with the introduction of the dedicated fast train “Pendolino” structure on the West Coast Main Line. There is a need for dependable freight routing from the southeast to the northwest. The SRA recently reported that south of Bedford the line was congested as a result of the operation of Thames Link and MML trains. However north of Bedford the infrastructure or infrastructure base exists for the segregation of freight and passenger services until Glendon Junction just south of Leicester or Syston Junction if routed via Corby. Existing freight flows on the Midland Main Line include mineral traffic from Mountsorrel, MGR coal traffic to the Trent power stations, fuel and palletised rubbish containers from Cricklewood. The reopened line would make an ideal national diversionary route and provide extra capacity.
• The mixed freight passenger railway would however have infrastructure implications in that it may be necessary to have passing loops at for example, Millers Dale, Rowsley and Ambergate / Duffield. It might also be desirable to segregate traffic flows from Millers Dale junction such that freight is routed via Chinley with passenger trains via Buxton. Such segregation would enable operational flexibility in tackling the 1 in 90 gradient from Millers Dale to Peak Forest summit. The passing loops if constructed as centre-avoiding lines at Millers Dale and at a Rowsley station re-sited at Northwood this would facilitate the flexibility of a mixed speed passenger service. The segregation of service at the north end of the route would minimise disruption to the reduced infrastructure that now exists through the Hope Valley and from Chinley North through to New Mills South.
• I would question the economic value of reopening the section from Millers Dale junction to Chinley North for Matlock to Manchester fast passenger traffic and the value of reopening Chapel Central station if this simply duplicates rail provision for the town. There might however be a case to be made for the extension of existing Manchester Piccadilly to New Mills Central services to Chapel Central via Chinley. This would allow the closure of the less centrally situated Chapel South Station and enhance the line speed and operational robustness of the Stockport Buxton Matlock services. A case for similar synergies could also be made for the closure of New Mills Newtown and Furness Vale stations if a new parkway station were to be built on the former Midland main line at New Mills South junction (close to any extension of the A6 by pass routes). It is also possible to envisage the provision of a Buxton - Sheffield (Meadowhall) local service via Chapel Central and the Hope Valley. This could stimulate and meet the need to connect Buxton and Sheffield in place of difficult road links and open up access to Yorkshire and the northeast for Buxton residents in addition to providing weekend and seasonal access for tourists to the Peak".

I do appreciate that with the MML electrification proposals and the Northern hub that things have changed in the interim but I still feel that a Trans Peak route linking the major centres of population there would be a good idea.
 
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Mvann

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It may only be 8 miles of missing track but you would also need to upgrade the route from Matlock to ambergate. Years ago, they had to move some coaches to peak rail for an event and had to use a pannier tank to get them there due to the light axle loading on the line. The section that was closed was partly because it was seen as a duplicate route and partly because of the state of the bridges. It only stayed open as far as Matlock because the council had offices in Matlock.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Well exactly! Spend a day in the Peak District and you will hear a whole variety of accents, many of whom will find it quicker to get to the Peak District by car if the route was to reopen.

An interesting observation about the areas from which people travel to Bakewell. Whilst this railway line is under discussion, it will only serve communities through which it travels directly and to use it, you will find that connections from elsewhere will still be required, with all the hassle involved of breaking travel journeys.

Rail enthusiasts would see this as an ideal but the vast numbers of existing car-borne and bus-borne passengers most certainly will not.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Whilst I am a rail enthusiast, I’m also a keen walker and cyclist and so would say that this line is far more popular now as a walking and cycle trail than it ever was as a rail route and should not be reopened.

Looking at the 1922 timetable at http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/ it would appear Manchester to Derby via Bakewell took around 90 minutes, which is more or less the same time it takes to get from Manchester to Derby today via Sheffield, so I can’t see there’s being any benefit for long distance travel.

Bakewell (and maybe Darley Dale) excepted, there’s very few significant settlements in the missing section between Matlock and Buxton, so I can’t see there’s being any benefit for local travel. And while Bakewell is very popular with tourists in the summer, out of season it’s only a small town with a population of under 4,000, with a reasonably good bus service to larger towns and cities nearby.

I would also argue that the line isn’t really that scenic either. Apart from the short 3 mile section between Monsal Head and Miller’s Dale, the whole route between Derby and Manchester goes mainly through the valley bottom in deep cuttings so there isn’t really that much to see for the tourist market.

So on balance, no I don’t see any good business case for reopening the line as a rail route.
 

RichmondCommu

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An interesting observation about the areas from which people travel to Bakewell. Whilst this railway line is under discussion, it will only serve communities through which it travels directly and to use it, you will find that connections from elsewhere will still be required, with all the hassle involved of breaking travel journeys.

Rail enthusiasts would see this as an ideal but the vast numbers of existing car-borne and bus-borne passengers most certainly will not.

I concur. As keen walkers, if my wife and I are back in the Motherland for the weekend and we are planning a walk of any decent length the less time spent getting there the better!

As previously stated the best and only remotely hope for the route is to reopen the line up to Peak Forest but not reinstate the curve to Buxton after Millersdale. This would help freight (assuming that there is enough capacity left in the quarries) and provide a quicker alternative route from the East Midlands to the North West. You could then operate a Dales Rail service at weekends with stops at Bakewell, Monsal Head and Millersdale.

Will it happen? With so many other projects that require funding not on your Nelly! Such a shame that they closed the route in the 1960's but who knew?
 

apk55

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I see the main benifits of reopening the line is as a through route, although I would expect some local stations to be opened and a regular local service.

The existing Hope valley line is near capacity so diverting some traffic would be of benfit. This could include a lot of freight particularily as Buxton is the source of much mineral traffic some of which goes to the East Midlands.

The existing service from Manchester to the East Midlands is poor and unattractive normaly involving a change at Sheffield so a direct fast regional service from Manchester to Derby and beyond (probably to London with several stops) could prove attractive.

As a keen rambler I would be sorry to lose the Monsel trail, but I am sure some alternative paths could be put in.
 

dysonsphere

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If those newly lit and reopened tunnels are double bore would they allow single line working with the cycle way seperated by a fence or would it be a "health and saftey" nono.
 

muddythefish

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The existing service from Manchester to the East Midlands is poor and unattractive normaly involving a change at Sheffield so a direct fast regional service from Manchester to Derby and beyond (probably to London with several stops) could prove attractive.

Crux of the matter really. Manchester - St Pancras used to be a busy route in the 1960s and 1970s, and provided direct links from the East and South Midlands to the north west that no longer exist. I'm sure the reopened route with a decent service of long distance and local trains would be viable. Walkers can take the train to Bakewell et al and do their walking from there.
 

Mikey C

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If those newly lit and reopened tunnels are double bore would they allow single line working with the cycle way seperated by a fence or would it be a "health and saftey" nono.

Walking through a long tunnel next to a railway line doesn't sound very appealing, especially when its full of diesel fumes!
 

The Planner

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The fact that the Hope Valley is getting a bit cramped wouldnt offset the fact that it would still be cheaper and more desirable to resignal, chuck a couple of loops in and speed it up than to reopen the old line.
 

yorksrob

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The fact that the Hope Valley is getting a bit cramped wouldnt offset the fact that it would still be cheaper and more desirable to resignal, chuck a couple of loops in and speed it up than to reopen the old line.

Cheap but not desirable.
 

yorksrob

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As previously stated the best and only remotely hope for the route is to reopen the line up to Peak Forest but not reinstate the curve to Buxton after Millersdale. This would help freight (assuming that there is enough capacity left in the quarries) and provide a quicker alternative route from the East Midlands to the North West. You could then operate a Dales Rail service at weekends with stops at Bakewell, Monsal Head and Millersdale.

I think that this scenario would make hope of reopening more remote.

The only way of making a decent business case is to serve as many markets as possible and the way to do this would be to reinstate the curve to Buxton as well, allowing a stopping service through the area as well as longer distance and freight.

In terms of signalling, you'll be putting in a junction North of Millers Dale anyway, so you might as well do it properly.
 

RichmondCommu

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I think that this scenario would make hope of reopening more remote.

The only way of making a decent business case is to serve as many markets as possible and the way to do this would be to reinstate the curve to Buxton as well, allowing a stopping service through the area as well as longer distance and freight.

In terms of signalling, you'll be putting in a junction North of Millers Dale anyway, so you might as well do it properly.

The problem is I don't think there is much of a market for tourists travelling to Buxton in the same way that there is to other parts of the Peak District. Even if the line was reinstated I honestly don't think you would have sufficient numbers travelling from Buxton to Derby as opposed to current journeys made to Manchester. There is the Derby University campus at Buxton but I don't think that provides many bums on seats on the current bus service.

If the line from Millersdale was to be opened through to Buxton you would still need another two costly junctions. You would also need to spend a fair amount of money upgrading the freight only route in order to run passenger services. Obviously you will still need to do that through Peak Forest but its all additional expense and in the case of Buxton I don't think you'd see a return on your money.
 

johnnychips

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As I said before, it would take away a much-loved resource for walkers, cyclists and horse riders, in which a lot of money has been invested. If you have been on it, you would have seen that single-track coexistence is impossible; and in any case, slow single-track working would largely defeat the object of its reopening. It's easy to say that these users could go elsewhere, but the similar trails - the Tissington and High Peak Trails - are in open limestone plateau scenery, very different from the valleys that the Monsal Trail winds through.
 
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TheKnightWho

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The problem is I don't think there is much of a market for tourists travelling to Buxton in the same way that there is to other parts of the Peak District. Even if the line was reinstated I honestly don't think you would have sufficient numbers travelling from Buxton to Derby as opposed to current journeys made to Manchester. There is the Derby University campus at Buxton but I don't think that provides many bums on seats on the current bus service.

If the line from Millersdale was to be opened through to Buxton you would still need another two costly junctions. You would also need to spend a fair amount of money upgrading the freight only route in order to run passenger services. Obviously you will still need to do that through Peak Forest but its all additional expense and in the case of Buxton I don't think you'd see a return on your money.

I think people are underestimating the value of what could be a direct connection from London to the Peak District, which is currently rather poorly served. The advantages of a direct connection over changes are underestimated by enthusiasts who don't see them as an issue, but families and the like would rather not have them.

There's also the fact that an extension of all Derby terminating services to Manchester would provide vital rail capacity, as well as a better connection from the East Midlands to Manchester, or there could even be something like a CrossCountry route from Stansted to Manchester Airport.
 
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