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PFN Disputed - Summons Issued - False Witness Statements

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island

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Nor me on both counts - so I say 'hopefully' it's all over whilst knowing it may not be. The only time limit I am aware of is that they need to start a prosecution within 12 months of the offence (or at least that was the case around 10 years ago from what I remember), which they did.

As far as I know a summary prosecution (technically, the laying of information) must be commenced no later than six months after the alleged offence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Have heard nothing since posting so hopefully that's the end of the matter.

Thanks for all the advice - very much appreciated.

The thread started with you receiving a Summons. Did you attend court on the day and at the time indicated on the Summons? If not, you will have been tried, and probably convicted, in your absence. The next you may hear about it is a letter requiring payment of a fine. Or it may be a police officer at your door executing an arrest warrant for you. Or one of a number of other things.

Assuming this has gone away is probably not a safe assumption.
 
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samsmoot

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For the record, perjury wouldn't have entered the equation either for something like saying you signed when you didn't. They'd have had their copy of the PFN as a company so it's not like the RPIS was lying, more than likely just a mistake which slipped through the net. Not perjury.

It's not just the one factual inaccuracy though - they also wrongly alleged that no response or statement in mitigation had been received, amongst other things. Two witnesses have made more than one false statement each, which I believe is actionable - as perjury or otherwise.
 

cjmillsnun

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It's not just the one factual inaccuracy though - they also wrongly alleged that no response or statement in mitigation had been received, amongst other things. Two witnesses have made more than one false statement each, which I believe is actionable - as perjury or otherwise.

Makes no difference. The PFN was withdrawn. The only question as far as the court is concerned is did you pay the fare before getting caught. The answer beyond reasonable doubt is no. Therefore you're guilty.
 

samsmoot

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The thread started with you receiving a Summons. Did you attend court on the day and at the time indicated on the Summons? If not, you will have been tried, and probably convicted, in your absence. The next you may hear about it is a letter requiring payment of a fine. Or it may be a police officer at your door executing an arrest warrant for you. Or one of a number of other things.

Assuming this has gone away is probably not a safe assumption.

Can't remember the exact details but the hearing on the due date was to be rearranged if I wished to defend it and witnesses were required to attend, I think.

Definitely far from assuming it has gone away. If the Summons is reissued I will deal with it on its own merits and carry through with my expressed intention.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What happened to the Summons ? Was the case dismissed ?

Please see above.
 

DaveNewcastle

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As far as I know a summary prosecution (technically, the laying of information) must be commenced no later than six months after the alleged offence.
Yes, but there's something in this thread which doesn't make sense to me:
Have heard nothing since posting so hopefully that's the end of the matter.
You said you had received a Summons back in April, and were taking advice on how to respond to that. If that is correct, then island's assessment would be true:
The thread started with you receiving a Summons. Did you attend court on the day and at the time indicated on the Summons? If not, you will have been tried, and probably convicted, in your absence. The next you may hear about it is a letter requiring payment of a fine. Or it may be a police officer at your door executing an arrest warrant for you. Or one of a number of other things.

Assuming this has gone away is probably not a safe assumption.
It is very unlikely that the Court would have failed to prosecute you if you didn't attend the Court on the date you were summonsed to appear. And the fact that a Summons has been issued satisfies the time limit of six months (though there are other limits, such as the 6-year limitation to the recovery of debts).


If you had not received a Summons back in April, then what was it that you did receive? Was it (just) a letter indicating that an investigation was in progress and that a prosecution would be one of the possible outcomes?
If that is correct (and you hadn't received a Summons to appear in Court), then the Prosecutor will have six months to file their claim with the Court, and we would expect the Court to process that claim within a few weeks, or months.

So, what can we deduce from I have received "a Magistrates' Court Summons" and 9 months later "I have heard nothing"?
Well, if it WAS a Summons you received in April, then the Court will have heard the matter by now and reached some decision or other (even if the matter was adjourned, that should have been communicated to you).
If it was NOT a Summons, then there may still be a few weeks left for the Company to request one from the Court (depending on how much time had passed between the initial incident and posting on here).

- - - - - - - PS - - - - - -
Ah, the missing link:
Can't remember the exact details but the hearing on the due date was to be rearranged if I wished to defend it and witnesses were required to attend, I think.
So this confirms that the six-month limitation no longer applies, as the information has been 'laid before Court'. They can take months to re-schedule the hearing (though this should not normally be allowed to be delayed unreasonably). There is also the possibility that the matter has been withdrawn; Courts might not automatically inform a Defendant in that case.
 
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samsmoot

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Makes no difference. The PFN was withdrawn. The only question as far as the court is concerned is did you pay the fare before getting caught. The answer beyond reasonable doubt is no. Therefore you're guilty.

It may make no difference to the verdict and I am under no illusions - if it did go to court I would likely be found guilty.

The difference made by the supplying of false witness statements is that they have also committed offences for which prosecutions can, and would, ensue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, the missing link: So this confirms that the six-month limitation no longer applies, as the information has been 'laid before Court'. They can take months to re-schedule the hearing (though this should not normally be allowed to be delayed unreasonably).

Yes, I imagine so - has been around 8 or 9 months now.
 

island

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I still would neither encourage sticking your head in the sand and assuming it will go away nor persisting with hysterical pronouncements about alleged offences of perjury.
 

Llanigraham

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It may make no difference to the verdict and I am under no illusions - if it did go to court I would likely be found guilty.

The difference made by the supplying of false witness statements is that they have also committed offences for which prosecutions can, and would, ensue.

You keep on about this "perjury" but I hope you realise that it will be up to you to prove it, and if you fail it could easily count against you, and be very expensive.

It does sound as if you letting your bitterness overrule your senses.
 

samsmoot

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I still would neither encourage sticking your head in the sand and assuming it will go away nor persisting with hysterical pronouncements about alleged offences of perjury.

'Hysterical pronouncements about alleged offences...' - if that's how you would like to spin it - sometimes gets results. As in this instance, apparently.
 

Merseysider

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surely you can't consider the matter to be fully resolved/gone away unless you receive actual confirmation of such? It would also be unwise to assume mistakes made in the initial gathering of evidence could prevent the prosecution from going ahead.
 

samsmoot

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You keep on about this "perjury" but I hope you realise that it will be up to you to prove it, and if you fail it could easily count against you, and be very expensive.

It does sound as if you letting your bitterness overrule your senses.

Not bitterness - it's a defensive tactic. Yes, I do feel aggrieved that the whole truth has not being told - why wouldn't I?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
surely you can't consider the matter to be fully resolved/gone away unless you receive actual confirmation of such?

As stated, not really.

It would also be unwise to assume mistakes made in the initial gathering of evidence could prevent the prosecution from going ahead.

What has prevented it going ahead, to my mind, is that in such a criminal process the truth is expected be told; it was pointed out that much false information was contained in the summons; they saw that numerous incorrect statements of fact were made; and decided to scrap that particular summons due to the challenges it presented.
 

Llanigraham

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Not bitterness - it's a defensive tactic. Yes, I do feel aggrieved that the whole truth has not being told - why wouldn't I?

So it is bitterness!
If this gets to Court I think you could be heading for a big fall.
Getting some proper legal advice might be a very wise idea.
 

samsmoot

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So it is bitterness!
If this gets to Court I think you could be heading for a big fall.
Getting some proper legal advice might be a very wise idea.

I appreciate the suggestion but having recently watched a solicitor in action in a Magistrates' Court I need no convincing of where their loyalties lie or how little time and effort they expend in legal aid cases, if I could get legal aid, which I can't.

I'd rather do it myself and at least have the opportunity of saying what I wanted to say and presenting the evidence I wanted to present, if it ever got that far.
 

Class377

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I am truly disappointed that whinging and looking for any minor point to complain is appearing to work here.

Saying it was signed when it was not signed is NOT perjury. It makes no difference whatsoever that the statement was not signed, so why would they care? Perjury would be if they actually made something up that would affect the case, not a minor admin error.

Looks to me like you were caught bang to rights and are trying to squirm your way out of it. I do hope that this summons is re-issued, because it really is a slam dunk case. I just hope that someone remembers to bring the popcorn!
 

Clip

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I'd rather do it myself and at least have the opportunity of saying what I wanted to say and presenting the evidence I wanted to present, if it ever got that far.

Please let me know the time and date if you do, it is something that I would like to witness
 

cjmillsnun

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The difference made by the supplying of false witness statements is that they have also committed offences for which prosecutions can, and would, ensue.

You have got no idea if prosecutions would ensue from it, also this is a matter of your word against theirs. I have a hunch, backed up by experience, that the response of the judge will be that this is irrelevant and down to no more than administrative cock ups. Something that the railway is far from immune to. Further to that if you continue with this to try and get mitigation you could well be found in contempt of court.

My suggestion. When (and you it's a very high likelihood, you will) you receive a new summons, write a grovelling letter to the TOC's prosecution department and try and resolve this out of court. When that is done and you have paid, make a formal complaint with the TOC or (and this is what I strongly advise) let the matter drop.

In future, look around for a TVM if the ticket office is closed. If there is none, find the guard, or pay at your connecting station.

If you're issued a PFN, PAY IT then appeal. If you're successful, you get a refund, if you're not, it's £20 rather than the over £150 you're facing now.
 
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samsmoot

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I am truly disappointed that whinging and looking for any minor point to complain is appearing to work here.

Saying it was signed when it was not signed is NOT perjury. It makes no difference whatsoever that the statement was not signed, so why would they care? Perjury would be if they actually made something up that would affect the case, not a minor admin error.

Looks to me like you were caught bang to rights and are trying to squirm your way out of it. I do hope that this summons is re-issued, because it really is a slam dunk case. I just hope that someone remembers to bring the popcorn!

Disappointed are you? Why? Because you relish other people's misery? Because your moral outrage should take precedence over the proper application of criminal procedure? You are one of them and don't like your buddies being told what's what?

Again, it wasn't just the non-signing at issue - multiple lies were told - tell you what, I'll copy and paste the letter so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
 
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tony6499

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Why don't you check with the courts and find out the exact status of things then maybe you would let us know ?
 

samsmoot

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Why don't you check with the courts and find out the exact status of things then maybe you would let us know ?

Is there any need? As I understood it a fresh hearing would needed to have been arranged, taking into account the attendance of witnesses. And I would have expected by now to have had some paperwork back if it was done in my absence. I don't expect to hear any more, but know I might.

As for letting this forum know if I happen to get/ have been convicted - there would seem little point, other than for gloating purposes - which I'd not want to encourage.
 

Class377

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Disappointed are you? Why? Because you relish other people's misery? Because your moral outrage should take precedence over the proper application of criminal procedure? You are one of them and don't like your buddies being told what's what?

Again, it wasn't just the non-signing at issue - multiple lies were told - tell you what, I'll copy and paste the letter so I don't have to keep repeating myself.

Disappointed because it opens the window for fare-dodgers to get away with it because "the man said I signed something when I didn't and now he's committing perjury!" seems to be able to get people off the hook nowadays.
 

samsmoot

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Please find below the allegations of false statements being made which were contained in my letter. It is obvious - to me anyway, that once the inconsistencies were pointed out it would have been wrong to proceed without getting them corrected. Otherwise the witnesses would have had to explain them in court. Which may have been something thought best avoided. Each would either have to stand by their statements or not - either way it seems to me that would have been at the very least problematical. Direct questions would have to answered, and that may have caused dilemmas. The attendance of the witness acting as administrator may have presented more difficulty than that of the RPO, as they wouldn't, I would have thought, usually go to court. Basically the truth was at odds with the statements and going to court with false information, particularly after being shown evidence that it was false, isn't really on.

Edit: Thought I included in the letter a rebuttal that no response or mitigation had been made. In any event that's another untruth which would have to be corrected.




'The witness X has in her Statement of Witness stated that I "signed the notice". This is untrue. The notice referred to was not signed by me, which fact is clearly evidenced on the notice where X wrote in the space for 'Passenger's signature' the words, 'X refused to sign'. Therefore X has knowingly made a false statement and so is liable for prosecution. She has committed the offence of perjury, which carries a maximum sentence of 7 years imprisonment upon conviction. She has also committed the offence of perverting the course of justice, which carries further and seperate penalties.

The witness Y has also provided false statements in her Statement of Witness wherein she says that "I submit in evidence a copy of the notice...showing the fare avoided". The "fare avoided" is stated in the Statement of Facts as being £3.40, whereas the amount on the notice submitted by X is stated as being £20. No mention of the sum of £3.40 is mentioned on the notice and therefore for her to say that the notice showed the "fare avoided" is untruthful. Y has made a statement which she knew to be false and so has also committed perjury and is therefore liable to prosecution for this offence. Her statement that an outstanding fare was avoided is also untruthful and is a further offence in itself.

In light of the above information it should be noted that further repetion of or reliance on these false statements will exacerbate the offences already committed and likely result in a higher sentence should the offenders be found guilty of perjury or perverting the course of justice or any other offences arising from deliberately and knowingly making false statements.

In addition to the false statement of X referred to above she has made other statements which she also knows to be untrue, each of which is a seperate offence and are as follows:

She states that she asked my name and address and that I verbally reponded with these details. This is untrue as it did not happen and I can provide evidence to show it to be a false statement.

She states that she isued a notice to me, which is also a false statement, as no notice or complete copy of a notice has ever been issued to me and I have evidence to support this fact.

She states that I "checked the details were correct", which is yet another false statement from X. I did not check any details as I was never shown any details and in any event would not have agreed the correctness of them, as can be shown from the evidence which I will, if necessary, provide to the court.

She states that "I gave Mr Z a copy of the notice", which is untrue. I have never, as stated above, received a copy of the notice in question, and therefore X has again made a false statement.'
 
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RJ

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Disappointed because it opens the window for fare-dodgers to get away with it because "the man said I signed something when I didn't and now he's committing perjury!" seems to be able to get people off the hook nowadays.

Perhaps less worrying that inspectors putting forward farbricated information as part of their evidence and it being accepted. If the railway wants to reprimand offences against it, it should ensure it goes about it in a right and proper manner.
 

samsmoot

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Disappointed because it opens the door for fare-dodgers to get away with it because "the man said I signed something when I didn't and now he's committing perjury!" seems to be able to get people off the hook nowadays.

Then I suggest you lobby your MP to push for a change in the law so that this open door might be closed. Perhaps some clause in the criminal evidence rules such as "All evidence provided by any train company shall be deemed to be accurate and true and shall not be subject to challenge by any Defendant". That may help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You have got no idea if prosecutions would ensue from it.

I don't know how they wouldn't ensue if I started them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Perhaps less worrying that inspectors putting forward farbricated information as part of their evidence and it being accepted. If the railway wants to reprimand offences against it, it should ensure it goes about it in a right and proper manner.

Of course it should! Had they accurately described events I doubt that I would have avoided conviction.

But if they had done that it wouldn't have shown things in such a bad light - and I conjecture whether it is down to sloppy administration or endemic intention to make it look the worst or whether it's due to the conflating of the PFN with criminal proceedings.
 
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Llanigraham

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Disappointed are you? Why? Because you relish other people's misery? Because your moral outrage should take precedence over the proper application of criminal procedure? You are one of them and don't like your buddies being told what's what?

Again, it wasn't just the non-signing at issue - multiple lies were told - tell you what, I'll copy and paste the letter so I don't have to keep repeating myself.

As you keep saying!!
However the first question you would be asked in Court is "Prove it".
Your whole attitude throughout this thread reads as if you have no experience of the Courts or their legal proceedings and are just hoping that your petty blustering will get you off. Sorry, but from my experience of being an ex-Government Dept Court Presenting Officer it will have the opposite; it will annoy the Prosecution, who will easily "take you apart", and even worse will annoy the Magistrates.
Please let us know when you are up before the Bench.

And now having read your letter, you really do not have a clue about the Law!!
 
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Hazlehead

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Can I say what I'm sure many are thinking? Please moderators let me say it ;)
 
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cjmillsnun

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The witness Y has also provided false statements in her Statement of Witness wherein she says that "I submit in evidence a copy of the notice...showing the fare avoided". The "fare avoided" is stated in the Statement of Facts as being £3.40, whereas the amount on the notice submitted by X is stated as being £20. No mention of the sum of £3.40 is mentioned on the notice and therefore for her to say that the notice showed the "fare avoided" is untruthful. Y has made a statement which she knew to be false and so has also committed perjury and is therefore liable to prosecution for this offence. Her statement that an outstanding fare was avoided is also untruthful and is a further offence in itself.

The fare avoided was £3.40. This was the fare you should've paid in the first place BEFORE YOU BOARDED THE TRAIN. This is the outstanding fare that was avoided.

That is actually a fact. The penalty fare of £20 was raised due to you avoiding paying the £3.40

Now who is committing Perjury?

On this evidence alone, you would be laughed out of court.

Please let this go to court. I have a feeling there would be one hell of a meet up.
 
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