TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Rhydgaled]

How many vehicles does the current service require?

Five, I think.

How many vehicles would your new proposal require?

I think that depends on whether you want to keep route-branded TrawsCymru-liveried buses on their intended routes. If you allow the operator(s) to use thier own livery(s), the basic Aberystwyth-Carmarthen service would require the same number of vehicles as now, with two extra vehicles required to provide Llandysul with a bus service to Carmarthen (which also would be what maintains Pencader's hourly service to Carmarthen), although you might save a Bwcabus vehicle off a fixed service by doing that and there may be some clever interworking you can do to save a vehicle somewhere. For example you may be able to combine the 540 service somehow.

How much spend would that entail and, as a result, how many additional passengers would you have to attract to cover that increased cost?

I do not have the knowlege of how much money the extra resources equal.

As lacking as the Winkler report is, it is regrettably (and massively so) all we have got to go on. There needs to be some definition of what TrawsCymru is supposed to be and a clear vision of what it should be doing. Otherwise, as I've posted before, you might as well apply the brand to all bus services in Wales except town services. Regarding journey time, I seem to recall she did recomend a proper survey. As far as I know the Welsh Government have ignored that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Five, I think.
I think that depends on whether you want to keep route-branded TrawsCymru-liveried buses on their intended routes. If you allow the operator(s) to use thier own livery(s), the basic Aberystwyth-Carmarthen service would require the same number of vehicles as now, with two extra vehicles required to provide Llandysul with a bus service to Carmarthen (which also would be what maintains Pencader's hourly service to Carmarthen), although you might save a Bwcabus vehicle off a fixed service by doing that and there may be some clever interworking you can do to save a vehicle somewhere. For example you may be able to combine the 540 service somehow.
I do not have the knowlege of how much money the extra resources equal.

As lacking as the Winkler report is, it is regrettably (and massively so) all we have got to go on. There needs to be some definition of what TrawsCymru is supposed to be and a clear vision of what it should be doing. Otherwise, as I've posted before, you might as well apply the brand to all bus services in Wales except town services. Regarding journey time, I seem to recall she did recomend a proper survey. As far as I know the Welsh Government have ignored that.

Ok, let's apply some high level maths....

Using some rough rule of thumb and the old X41 timings, it would require two vehicles. The combined cost for these is c.£850 per day.

Using an average fare of £4 per journey, you'd need to generate an EXTRA 213 passengers per day, every day. Will an express version (saving 8 minutes of running time and an additional diversionary mileage of only 1.6 miles) generate that level of additional patronage........No.

And, at a stroke, more science there than is in the whole Winkler report.

Imagine what you could do with TWO extra buses..... You could make the 39 Hourly, and make the 280/1 Hourly too. Or save 8 minutes of running time...... what would be the best use of that funding?

 

[WelshBuses93]

The T5 timetable is now up on the TrawsCymru website and actually says it operates up to 7 days a week, but not according to the timetable.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The T5 timetable is now up on the TrawsCymru website and actually says it operates up to 7 days a week, but not according to the timetable.

I guessed right, they used the (massively inappropriate in this case) 'D' word again. I'm sorry Welsh Government but the T5 does not provide "a regular and direct service". What's an appropriate penalty for such inaccurate use of language?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Ok, let's apply some high level maths....

Using some rough rule of thumb and the old X41 timings, it would require two vehicles. The combined cost for these is c.£850 per day.

Using an average fare of £4 per journey, you'd need to generate an EXTRA 213 passengers per day, every day. Will an express version (saving 8 minutes of running time and an additional diversionary mileage of only 1.6 miles) generate that level of additional patronage........No.

And, at a stroke, more science there than is in the whole Winkler report.

Imagine what you could do with TWO extra buses..... You could make the 39 Hourly, and make the 280/1 Hourly too. Or save 8 minutes of running time...... what would be the best use of that funding?

I'd like to see that... I was on Bryan's coaches new 750 service the other day and only 1 person boarded between Synod Inn and Carmarthen... so much for Llandysul needing a 2 hourly service... they don't even need a twice weekly one judging by what I saw.

As for Rhydgaled's idea of running a service from Lampeter to Llandovery as part of the Trawscymru network.... well I live near Ffarmers and can assure him that unless sheep are going to be allowed on the service then I don't see how it will pay... from Lampeter to Llanwrda there are only 2 villages on the main road... Harford and Pumpsaint/Dolaugothi and to be honest both are nothing more than a collection of houses... in fact the main centres of population here are well off the main road (Ffaldybrenin/ Ffarmers/ Llansawel etc) and we all know how Rhydgaled feels about TrawsCymru services leaving the main roads to enable them to actually provide a service!

 

[Rhydgaled]

it would require two vehicles. The combined cost for these is c.£850 per day.

Using an average fare of £4 per journey, you'd need to generate an EXTRA 213 passengers per day, every day.

Thanks, very informative.

Will an express version (saving 8 minutes of running time and an additional diversionary mileage of only 1.6 miles) generate that level of additional patronage........No.

Indeed no, the faster TrawsCymru service would not gain 200 odd extra passengers. But what would you get from serving Llandysul with a bus every 2hrs instead of basically nothing except Bwcabus? And if the answer is everyone who would use the service will use Bwcabus anyway, then why not use Bwcabus for Pencader too (retaining one 40/40c via Pencader every 2hrs)?

Imagine what you could do with TWO extra buses..... You could make the 39 Hourly, and make the 280/1 Hourly too. Or save 8 minutes of running time...... what would be the best use of that funding?

It isn't only to save 8 minutes of running time though. If it were, it could be done with one bus just shuttling between Pencader the main road. There's also the question of whether it is general funding or ringfenced TrawsCymru money. If the former, there almost certainly would be better uses for the money. In terms of TrawsCymru however, what was the point in the rebranding away from TrawsCambria if the new offer is just more of the same mixed bag of long-distance and local services with no clear idea of the network's purpose?

I was on Bryan's coaches new 750 service the other day and only 1 person boarded between Synod Inn and Carmarthen... so much for Llandysul needing a 2 hourly service... they don't even need a twice weekly one judging by what I saw.

I don't think services running less than 6 days per week provide a serious-enough transport option to attract significant patronage. Before Bwcabus was extended, Llandysul had 5 trips each way Mon-Sat to/from New Quay, which at a guess is the less-significant direction for travel from Llandysul (Carmarthen is much bigger, and is on the rail network etc.). Does anyone happen to have a copy of the timetable for the L1 service that was tendered alongside the T1 before Arriva put a stop to the whole thing with CymruExpress? The council/WAG obviously thought Llandysul deserved a bus service back then, I wonder what level of service was proposed?

As for Rhydgaled's idea of running a service from Lampeter to Llandovery as part of the Trawscymru network....

I agree that there's no prospect of picking up any significant number of passengers between Lampeter and Llandovery. Lampeter itself however is a more-interesting prospect. I think there is some merit in the idea of a service from Abergavenny to Llandovery, with Brecon on-route. But Llandovery doesn't seem to be a sensible terminus, it isn't nearly as major as other TrawsCymru terminal points and the Heart Of Wales Line (HOWL) is too infrequent for connections into that to be the only purpose of the bus link. I personally think Lampeter or Aberaeron (with connections for Aberystwyth) is a logical westwards extension from Llandovery, with a connecting local service running Llandovery to Carmarthen.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks, very informative.

Indeed no, the faster TrawsCymru service would not gain 200 odd extra passengers. But what would you get from serving Llandysul with a bus every 2hrs instead of basically nothing except Bwcabus? And if the answer is everyone who would use the service will use Bwcabus anyway, then why not use Bwcabus for Pencader too (retaining one 40/40c via Pencader every 2hrs)?

It isn't only to save 8 minutes of running time though. If it were, it could be done with one bus just shuttling between Pencader the main road. There's also the question of whether it is general funding or ringfenced TrawsCymru money. If the former, there almost certainly would be better uses for the money. In terms of TrawsCymru however, what was the point in the rebranding away from TrawsCambria if the new offer is just more of the same mixed bag of long-distance and local services with no clear idea of the network's purpose?

I agree that there's no prospect of picking up any significant number of passengers between Lampeter and Llandovery. Lampeter itself however is a more-interesting prospect. I think there is some merit in the idea of a service from Abergavenny to Llandovery, with Brecon on-route. But Llandovery doesn't seem to be a sensible terminus, it isn't nearly as major as other TrawsCymru terminal points and the Heart Of Wales Line (HOWL) is too infrequent for connections into that to be the only purpose of the bus link. I personally think Lampeter or Aberaeron (with connections for Aberystwyth) is a logical westwards extension from Llandovery, with a connecting local service running Llandovery to Carmarthen.

Let's get rid of the irrelevancies of what never happened with the L1 etc.

Can you please provide any sort of evidence as to any demand from Aber let alone Lampeter to Llandovery and Brecon? Sorry but there's none. History proves that, and the clear LOGICAL extension from Llandovery is to Carmarthen. TWO people are telling you this who KNOW the area - you clearly don't and are doing so based on a map. Why would create a link that no one would use and ignore the existing one that people do use AND serves Llandeilo too?

Now as for your idea of missing out Pencader, you're going to HALF the frequency from there to Carmarthen. To save 8 minutes - doesn't make sense! You're fixated with this mythical running time comparison with the car yet there's no evidence in the Winkler report to substantiate anything. In an area of very low population density, it is folly to miss out major villages only 1.6 miles from the main road. TrawsCymru is aimed at providing long distance links for communities. It aims to do this quickly but in areas of low population then clearly a balance has to be struck by simple diversions of a mile or two or the cost of serving those separately would be disproportionately high.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I don't think services running less than 6 days per week provide a serious-enough transport option to attract significant patronage.

REALLY? perhaps you should look at the history of Bryan's coaches 701 which originally only ran twice a week (as the 750 does now) and steadily built up patronage to the point where it now runs twice DAILY mon-sat and once on sundays.

I agree that there's no prospect of picking up any significant number of passengers between Lampeter and Llandovery. Lampeter itself however is a more-interesting prospect. I think there is some merit in the idea of a service from Abergavenny to Llandovery, with Brecon on-route. But Llandovery doesn't seem to be a sensible terminus, it isn't nearly as major as other TrawsCymru terminal points and the Heart Of Wales Line (HOWL) is too infrequent for connections into that to be the only purpose of the bus link. I personally think Lampeter or Aberaeron (with connections for Aberystwyth) is a logical westwards extension from Llandovery, with a connecting local service running Llandovery to Carmarthen.

why not a TC route Abergavenny- Llandovery- Carmarthen with a connecting service to Lampeter calling the Lampeter service 289? what you are proposing is a truncated form of what used to be the 611 which, even in the heyday of bus services ran only 3 times daily and totally withered after deregulation to leave just the 288/ 289 as is.

Seriously have a look at a map and look at the way the water flows... believe it or not despite the advances in technology and mobility people really do still travel along river valleys... hence those living in Ffarmers tend to go to Lampeter for shopping/ work etc whilst those living in Llansawel tend to go towards Llandeilo...

the truth is the big flaw in the TrawsCymru network as it is developing is that it isn't based on any organic growth or traffic flows... it is based on someone with political bias imposing what they THINK the public wants...

 

[WelshBuses93]

I can now confirm that the 3 Double Deckers for the T3 will in fact be Scania N230UD/ Alexander Dennis Enviro400's and 1 Alexander Dennis Enviro200. Happy New Year!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A new fleet of Optare Metrocity's will be introduced on the T5 service.
http://wales.gov.uk/newsroom/transport/2015/9554192/?lang=en

 

[DaveHarries]

A new fleet of Optare Metrocity's will be introduced on the T5 service.
http://wales.gov.uk/newsroom/transport/2015/9554192/?lang=en

Nice. Will ride one if the chance comes up: my employer does sometimes send me off to Cardigan from Bristol.

Dave

 

[Rhydgaled]

Let's get rid of the irrelevancies of what never happened with the L1 etc.

I don't think it is irrelevant (maybe slightly but far from entirely), the question still stands.

the clear LOGICAL extension from Llandovery is to Carmarthen.

Why? You mention the existing service from Llandovery to Carmarthen that people do use, but why would there be any more demand between Carmarthen and Brecon compared to between Aberystwyth/Lampeter and Brecon? I'm not talking about intermediate traffic, which I'm not denying is much higher on the Carmarthen-Llandovery route than Lampeter-Llandovery.

Now as for your idea of missing out Pencader, you're going to HALF the frequency from there to Carmarthen.

Not true, you admited earlier that it was the frequency from there to Lampeter that would halve, not to Carmarthen. You make good points about cost versus time saving, but as you say there is no hard evidence on just how big a time penalty passengers are prepared to accept. If the same compromises are going to persist, then what was the point in the rebrand from TrawsCambria? Lots of money expended on paint and the application of really unhelpful service numbering for no good reason. If it were still TrawsCambria, we could have kept the 550/X50 distinction, and given the routes via Pencarreg and Llanwnnen seperate numbers (alternating between the two sounds like a really sensible timetabling move to me, until you throw in the limitation of a TrawsCymru numbering scheme).

REALLY? perhaps you should look at the history of Bryan's coaches 701 which originally only ran twice a week (as the 750 does now) and steadily built up patronage to the point where it now runs twice DAILY mon-sat and once on sundays.

Ok, you got me there. What I probably should have said was settlements served less than 6 days per week by any public transport service. The 701 had the benifit of the X40 running the rest of the time and the 750 route has existing services between Aberystwyth and Synod Inn, which was the section you said generated most of the passengers.

why not a TC route Abergavenny- Llandovery- Carmarthen with a connecting service to Lampeter calling the Lampeter service 289?

Partly because, given the existing services (very infrequent 389), it would be alot easier to get from Llandovery to Carmarthen in my proposal (using existing services) than it would to get from Llandovery to Lampeter if the TC route went to Carmarthen. The lack of local traffic on Lampeter-Llandovery makes a stand-alone local service harder to provide, whereas the Llandovery-Carmarthen service is there and wouldn't disappear just because there's a Brecon-Lampeter service.

Also, the flow Carmarthen-Llandovery doesn't seem to continue. You said:

Seriously have a look at a map and look at the way the water flows... believe it or not despite the advances in technology and mobility people really do still travel along river valleys... hence those living in Ffarmers tend to go to Lampeter for shopping/ work etc whilst those living in Llansawel tend to go towards Llandeilo...

The Towy doesn't continue onto Sennybridge/Brecon after Llandovery, it goes into a remote area north-west of Llandovery. By your logic and mine (which is that the natural flows are in roughly straight lines, rather than along river valleys, although it helps when both come together), having the Carmarthen-Llandovery service then turn east to Brecon isn't logical. If that service were to be extended, wouldn't Llanwrtyd-Builth/Llandrindod make more sense?

There does seem to be some logic in your river valleys idea, but it doesn't seem to work in the case of the Teifi (there isn't a big flow between Cardigan and Lampeter, as far as I'm aware).

the truth is the big flaw in the TrawsCymru network as it is developing is that it isn't based on any organic growth or traffic flows... it is based on someone with political bias imposing what they THINK the public wants...

Where do you think the current network has it wrong then? Where are the routes following organic flows and where aren't they? How would you design the whole network?

I can now confirm that the 3 Double Deckers for the T3 will in fact be Scania N230UD/ Alexander Dennis Enviro400's and 1 Alexander Dennis Enviro200. Happy New Year!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A new fleet of Optare Metrocity's will be introduced on the T5 service.
http://wales.gov.uk/newsroom/transport/2015/9554192/?lang=en

Why Metrocitys? They're a bit short (all the TrawsCambria Tempos were at least 12m), and look silly (the daft Versa/SoloSR hump strikes again). And why did they repaint the current buses into the livery for a few months work? Why didn't they just wait for the new vehicles?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's the logical extension because that is where there is a demonstrable current demand. People actually travel from Llandovery to Carmarthen. It's a current service not some ethereal, looking at a map, exercise. I've actually used that service; have you? Similarly, the Brecon to Llandovery service currently exists running 6 days a week. Instead you'd have a service that only runs on two days a week increased with no evidence of why, just looking at a map in preference to running on established routes where the demand DOES exist. The old S52/X52 used to run from Aber to Lampeter to Llanwrda but guess what, there was virtually no demand. Hence it was cut to a couple of market day services. People don't travel from Llandovery to Lampeter; they go to Carmarthen or Brecon. Even when driving they don't do go that way.

As for following up the valley to Builth and Llanwrtyd - why would you duplicate the train service? If there were sizeable settlements on that route then yes but there's not. What TL says is broadly true; people tend to follow topography which tends to follow valleys. There are exceptions naturally but in general, that's what happens. There are sometimes exceptions like Brecon to Merthyr or Cardiff but thats because of the pull to Cardiff and the tourist trade.

As for the halving of frequency, I was working on your line " (retaining one 40/40c via Pencader every 2hrs)" and assumed you were having that as your Llandysul service. Apologies for that but still you're saying having extra fleet and expenditure so save 8 minutes and 1.6 miles. That doesn't make economic sense.

As for Metrocitys, that's an odd choice but the capacity is probably similar to Tempos, and they're cheaper to run. They'll know the loadings and so they must be sufficient. As for styling, well that's personal opinion.

I don't know what TL would suggest about the route but I would suggest the 39 is made hourly but they'll not do that as it goes to England!

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's the logical extension because that is where there is a demonstrable current demand. People actually travel from Llandovery to Carmarthen. It's a current service not some ethereal, looking at a map, exercise. I've actually used that service; have you? Similarly, the Brecon to Llandovery service currently exists running 6 days a week. Instead you'd have a service that only runs on two days a week increased with no evidence of why

No, I haven't used the service but I believe you that there is "demonstrable current demand". However, while I do not doubt that:

• People actually travel from Llandovery to Carmarthen
• People actually travel from Llandovery to Brecon

There is nothing to say that linking them into a through service would help all that much.

People don't travel from Llandovery to Lampeter; they go to Carmarthen or Brecon. Even when driving they don't do go that way.

Which way do they drive? Or are you saying they don't go to somewhere like Aberystywth either?

As for following up the valley to Builth and Llanwrtyd - why would you duplicate the train service? If there were sizeable settlements on that route then yes but there's not.

I wasn't seriously suggesting it, but mainly only because of the rail link. I just used it to try and explain why I don't see Carmarthen-Brecon as a logical through route, that's all. Although if you went to Llandrindod rather than Builth it might be faster than the train (and we know from the T4 that if bus is faster then TrawsCymru does sometimes appear to duplicate rail).

What TL says is broadly true; people tend to follow topography which tends to follow valleys. There are exceptions naturally but in general, that's what happens. There are sometimes exceptions like Brecon to Merthyr or Cardiff but thats because of the pull to Cardiff and the tourist trade.

Maybe I'm over-estimating the pull of New Quay, Aberaeron and most of all Aberystywth then.

As for the halving of frequency, I was working on your line " (retaining one 40/40c via Pencader every 2hrs)" and assumed you were having that as your Llandysul service.

Ah, ok. Basically it would be three routes, each every 2hrs:

• TrawsCymru TC1 Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Lampeter - Llanwnnen - Carmarthen
• 40/40c Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Lampeter - Pencarreg - Pencader - Carmarthen (some workings would be 540 instead of 40 between Aberystwyth and Lampeter and travel via Cribyn and Llanwnnen)
• L1 (or 41, or 553 or something like that) Llandysul - Pencader - Carmarthen

As for Metrocitys, that's an odd choice but the capacity is probably similar to Tempos, and they're cheaper to run. They'll know the loadings and so they must be sufficient. As for styling, well that's personal opinion.

The spec on the Optare website gives the longest two lengths capacities of 40 and 44, counting the flip-up seats, which is similar to the Tempos but presumably that is at standard seat density with poor legroom for long journeys. Remember the 2010 TrawsCambria consultation? This BBC article says the top requests were:

• access to toilet facilities,
• extra leg room and
• extra luggage space

Toilet facilities is a very tricky one, can't provide them on a bus so it becomes a question of supporting infrustructure. The other two though (particularly legroom, you can fit overhead racks for some luggage) would knock the Metrocity down to less capacity than the Tempos have, and they need every bit of it on some workings. At the bus user's surgery I attended in Cardigan, the TrawsCymru network manager said could they get away with smaller buses, "something like a Versa" and was told not by somebody else (who I think was from Ceredigion council). I therefore predict the Metrocitys will have 40 odd seats and the same lack of legroom as nearly every other bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No, I haven't used the service but I believe you that there is "demonstrable current demand". However, while I do not doubt that:

• People actually travel from Llandovery to Carmarthen
• People actually travel from Llandovery to Brecon

There is nothing to say that linking them into a through service would help all that much.

Which way do they drive? Or are you saying they don't go to somewhere like Aberystywth either?

I wasn't seriously suggesting it, but mainly only because of the rail link. I just used it to try and explain why I don't see Carmarthen-Brecon as a logical through route, that's all. Although if you went to Llandrindod rather than Builth it might be faster than the train (and we know from the T4 that if bus is faster then TrawsCymru does sometimes appear to duplicate rail).

Maybe I'm over-estimating the pull of New Quay, Aberaeron and most of all Aberystywth then.

Ah, ok. Basically it would be three routes, each every 2hrs:

• TrawsCymru TC1 Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Lampeter - Llanwnnen - Carmarthen
• 40/40c Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Lampeter - Pencarreg - Pencader - Carmarthen (some workings would be 540 instead of 40 between Aberystwyth and Lampeter and travel via Cribyn and Llanwnnen)
• L1 (or 41, or 553 or something like that) Llandysul - Pencader - Carmarthen

The spec on the Optare website gives the longest two lengths capacities of 40 and 44, counting the flip-up seats, which is similar to the Tempos but presumably that is at standard seat density with poor legroom for long journeys.

Firstly, not even going to broach the subject of vehicles. It was too painful last time.

As for "There is nothing to say that linking them into a through service would help all that much." - fair enough but that there is some demand for either service is MORE than running where there is NO evidence of any demand for either local or longer distance traffic.

Think of what TrawsCymru is supposed to deliver. It's about stitching existing services together to create longer distance links. However, each and every one of the services was AT LEAST a six days a week operation, even if the ones north of Brecon only had one or two journeys on a Saturday.

Where people travel to in the area... If it's grocery shopping, then the main places are Brecon (Morrisons) or Ammanford (Tesco) though for most, they'll stay with the Coop in Llandovery and Llandeilo. If it's more of a big general shopping deal, then Carmarthen is a major centre. Main hospital for Llandovery and Llandeilo is Abergwili which the 280/1 go past; for Brecon, probably Nevill Hall in Abergavenny. In short, why would anyone in Brecon or Llandovery want to go to Aberystwyth or Lampeter?

If you want more examples (to back up Teflon Lettuce's assertion), look at somewhere like Betws y Coed or Llanwrst. People don't travel to Bangor or Caernarfon - they head down the Conwy Valley to Llandudno.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

No, I haven't used the service but I believe you that there is "demonstrable current demand". However, while I do not doubt that:

• People actually travel from Llandovery to Carmarthen
• People actually travel from Llandovery to Brecon

There is nothing to say that linking them into a through service would help all that much.

Which way do they drive? Or are you saying they don't go to somewhere like Aberystywth either?

quite simply.... no. The main regional shopping centre for Llandovery is Carmarthen and that for Brecon is Abergavenny.

of course linking Brecon- Llandovery and Carmarthen- Llandovery would help the services. Firstly it would allow more efficient use of resources.

Secondly... Llandovery is not a natural terminus for the services.. the reason why the 2 services terminate there is purely due to an idiosyncracy of deregulation in that the 2 county councils decided to tender their own sections of the natural Carmarthen-Llandovery- Brecon route seperately.

Maybe I'm over-estimating the pull of New Quay, Aberaeron and most of all Aberystywth then.

yes you are. In fact the majority of passengers on the 750 join in Newquay and travel to Carmarthen.

Ah, ok. Basically it would be three routes, each every 2hrs:

• TrawsCymru TC1 Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Lampeter - Llanwnnen - Carmarthen
• 40/40c Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Lampeter - Pencarreg - Pencader - Carmarthen (some workings would be 540 instead of 40 between Aberystwyth and Lampeter and travel via Cribyn and Llanwnnen)
• L1 (or 41, or 553 or something like that) Llandysul - Pencader - Carmarthen

so your suggestion is to destroy the one advantage of the T1 route in that it is a simple single core corridor route? and before you object and say it is really 2 routes... I think you do a disservice to the majority of the public by making the assumption that they are too stupid to be able to read a timetable to work out which working goes which way.

The spec on the Optare website gives the longest two lengths capacities of 40 and 44, counting the flip-up seats, which is similar to the Tempos but presumably that is at standard seat density with poor legroom for long journeys. Remember the 2010 TrawsCambria consultation? This BBC article says the top requests were:

• access to toilet facilities,
• extra leg room and
• extra luggage space

Toilet facilities is a very tricky one, can't provide them on a bus so it becomes a question of supporting infrustructure. The other two though (particularly legroom, you can fit overhead racks for some luggage) would knock the Metrocity down to less capacity than the Tempos have, and they need every bit of it on some workings. At the bus user's surgery I attended in Cardigan, the TrawsCymru network manager said could they get away with smaller buses, "something like a Versa" and was told not by somebody else (who I think was from Ceredigion council). I therefore predict the Metrocitys will have 40 odd seats and the same lack of legroom as nearly every other bus.

it's easy to provide comfortable seating, toilets and easy access.... use a coach! there are now many dda compliant options available for coaches now.

as to buggies.... how did mothers cope before low floor buses? oh that's right... they knew they had to collapse the buggy to get on the bus so would do so before it arrived! I have travelled on routes where you never knew whether the vehicle would be low floor or not... and that is where the problem occurred... not knowing that the bus coming along had steps!

Seriously the main problem with the ENTIRE transport policy in Wales at the moment is the minister in charge... after all according to Edwina Hart there is only one opinion that can be right... hers! (check what she said when castigated for making a decision on the M4 relief road in Newport BEFORE the enquiry SHE commissioned had reported)

I stand by my previous assertion that politicians should keep their nose out of network development and should leave it to the professionals to get on with the job. After all they don't make their profits by telling their customers what they want but by providing the services that are useful to their customers. Isn't that why Arriva's operations in Aber failed? because someone in Liverpool knew better than their local staff.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

quite simply.... no. The main regional shopping centre for Llandovery is Carmarthen and that for Brecon is Abergavenny.

of course linking Brecon- Llandovery and Carmarthen- Llandovery would help the services. Firstly it would allow more efficient use of resources.

Secondly... Llandovery is not a natural terminus for the services.. the reason why the 2 services terminate there is purely due to an idiosyncracy of deregulation in that the 2 county councils decided to tender their own sections of the natural Carmarthen-Llandovery- Brecon route seperately.



yes you are. In fact the majority of passengers on the 750 join in Newquay and travel to Carmarthen.



so your suggestion is to destroy the one advantage of the T1 route in that it is a simple single core corridor route? and before you object and say it is really 2 routes... I think you do a disservice to the majority of the public by making the assumption that they are too stupid to be able to read a timetable to work out which working goes which way.



it's easy to provide comfortable seating, toilets and easy access.... use a coach! there are now many dda compliant options available for coaches now.

as to buggies.... how did mothers cope before low floor buses? oh that's right... they knew they had to collapse the buggy to get on the bus so would do so before it arrived! I have travelled on routes where you never knew whether the vehicle would be low floor or not... and that is where the problem occurred... not knowing that the bus coming along had steps!

Seriously the main problem with the ENTIRE transport policy in Wales at the moment is the minister in charge... after all according to Edwina Hart there is only one opinion that can be right... hers! (check what she said when castigated for making a decision on the M4 relief road in Newport BEFORE the enquiry SHE commissioned had reported)

I stand by my previous assertion that politicians should keep their nose out of network development and should leave it to the professionals to get on with the job

Oh no TL. You've fallen into the trap. Cue endless head banging discussion on how coaches can't work and how categorically the only vehicle in the history of time that could ever cope is the Optare Tempo!!!!!

That said, you're right on everything else.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Oh no TL. You've fallen into the trap. Cue endless head banging discussion on how coaches can't work and how categorically the only vehicle in the history of time that could ever cope is the Optare Tempo!!!!!

That said, you're right on everything else.

Lol I know... perhaps if the Optare Tempo is such a great maid of all work perhaps Rhydgaled could explain why, like it's predecessor the Excel, it has failed to sell in more than penny numbers compared to all the other models available?

 

[Rhydgaled]

so your suggestion is to destroy the one advantage of the T1 route in that it is a simple single core corridor route? and before you object and say it is really 2 routes... I think you do a disservice to the majority of the public by making the assumption that they are too stupid to be able to read a timetable to work out which working goes which way.

No assumption necessary, I've seen it happen with X50 services. Not everyone bothers to look at the timetable it seems. As for the T1, it is actually more than 2 routes (because some journeys omit Pencader).

I stand by my previous assertion that politicians should keep their nose out of network development and should leave it to the professionals to get on with the job. After all they don't make their profits by telling their customers what they want but by providing the services that are useful to their customers. Isn't that why Arriva's operations in Aber failed? because someone in Liverpool knew better than their local staff.

Good point about Arriva, but government has to provide subsidy for most of the network so it gets difficult to keep politicians' out of the picture completely.

Think of what TrawsCymru is supposed to deliver. It's about stitching existing services together to create longer distance links. However, each and every one of the services was AT LEAST a six days a week operation, even if the ones north of Brecon only had one or two journeys on a Saturday.

It was also at one point supposed to be about filling gaps in the rail network. And wasn't the 704 introduced despite there being no service at all on part of the route previously?

Where people travel to in the area... If it's grocery shopping, then the main places are Brecon (Morrisons) or Ammanford (Tesco) though for most, they'll stay with the Coop in Llandovery and Llandeilo. If it's more of a big general shopping deal, then Carmarthen is a major centre. Main hospital for Llandovery and Llandeilo is Abergwili which the 280/1 go past; for Brecon, probably Nevill Hall in Abergavenny. In short, why would anyone in Brecon or Llandovery want to go to Aberystwyth or Lampeter?

Fair points, but couldn't you equally say why would anyone want to travel between Netown and Llandrindod?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It was also at one point supposed to be about filling gaps in the rail network. And wasn't the 704 introduced despite there being no service at all on part of the route previously?

Fair points, but couldn't you equally say why would anyone want to travel between Netown and Llandrindod?

Not so. Cross Gates ran two journeys each way LW to Newtown and three journeys each way LW to Brecon. Between Builth and LW, Cross Gates and Roy Brown ran 8 journeys. You're regurgitating a press release that was wrong at the time.

Given that even in the darkest days before TC that there was a service 6 days a week from LW to Newtown indicates a some demand existed? The fact that such a service doesn't exist from Lampeter to Llandovery doesn't AND NEVER HAS indicates the opposite.

To be blunt, I know the area very well. The mother in law lives there. TL actually lives there. You're doing this from a map in your bedroom, not knowing the area and not having travelled on the buses (as both TL and me have). We're not being mean or wanting to seem condescending; you're just not correct on this one.

 

[Greenback]

I have relatives living in the area as well, and I'd agree that demand for Llandovery - Lampeter - Aberystwyth is negligible.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

No assumption necessary, I've seen it happen with X50 services. Not everyone bothers to look at the timetable it seems. As for the T1, it is actually more than 2 routes (because some journeys omit Pencader).

No it is NOT more than one route... it IS one route with more than one VARIATION.... in some parts of the UK there are services where no 2 journeys follow exactly the same route... and no-one seems to have problems.

Good point about Arriva, but government has to provide subsidy for most of the network so it gets difficult to keep politicians' out of the picture completely.

The point of deregulation was that services would be provided commercially, with COUNCILS providing socially neccessary but uneconomic services through competitive tendering.

The big problem now is that the Welsh Assembly want to re-regulate through the back door. Don't believe me? Look at the facts.

BSOG has been cut by 25% over the last year, at the same time the re-imbursement rate for concessionary passes has been cut by a similar amount. At the same time the WA has cut funding to councils for socially neccessary services. Hence when Arriva pulled out of Ceredigion there was no money to replace the services by the councils and money had to be provided by the WA ( and before you claim the councils put the tenders out... yes but using money provided by the WA {check the TrawsCymru publicity})

It's an economic fact that every time there is a cut to concessionary pass funding and/or BSOG then more services become uneconomic and are withdrawn from commercial operations. The councils, having had their funding cut, are unable to fund replacements and it is left to the WA to dictate what they want.

In a similar vein, it is an accepted fact that dial-a-ride services cost between 2 and 3 times the amount that a normal fixed route does. So why have Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire invested so heavily in Bwcabus to replace withdrawn services. Oh yes that's because tendered services would require them to spend money they don't have whereas Bwcabus is funded by WA development money.

Don't get me wrong, I have been a Labour supporter all my life but the Goverment we have in the Assembly would make Michael Foot and Lenin look right wing.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not so. Cross Gates ran two journeys each way LW to Newtown and three journeys each way LW to Brecon. Between Builth and LW, Cross Gates and Roy Brown ran 8 journeys. You're regurgitating a press release that was wrong at the time.

Ok, I've learnt something there. Official statements regarding TrawsCambria were at least as misleading as they are for TrawsCymru. The BBC were at it as well:

A new bus service between Aberystwyth in Ceredigion and Haverfordwest in Pembrokeshire has started running.

The hourly T5 service replaces the X50 and 412 services and is part of the Traws Cymru network, which is funded by the Welsh government.

The journey takes around one hour and 45 minutes and includes stops at Aberaeron, Cardigan and Fishguard.

A fleet of fuel-efficient buses will be introduced from the end of April.

My bold. In their dreams, Aberystwyth to Haverfordwest in that time wouldn't be possible even if the bus didn't go via New Quay, Aberporth or Fishguard. At least they have a relevant photograph though, unlike the TrawsCymru website which has another lightly edited shot from the T4.

Update: The BBC have now corrected it to read 2hrs 45mins, although as far as I can see there is only one service per day that does it that fast, and only in one direction. The other through services take over 3hrs.

We're not being mean or wanting to seem condescending

It's ok, I didn't think you were trying to be either. I cannot fault your logic regarding the Llandovery services from a commercial perspective, or in terms of a local-level service. It is only when I look at the wider, trans-Wales, picture that I come to a different conclusion than you.

No it is NOT more than one route... it IS one route with more than one VARIATION.... in some parts of the UK there are services where no 2 journeys follow exactly the same route... and no-one seems to have problems.

I've replied to that in this topic.

The point of deregulation was that services would be provided commercially, with COUNCILS providing socially neccessary but uneconomic services through competitive tendering.

The big problem now is that the Welsh Assembly want to re-regulate through the back door. Don't believe me? Look at the facts.

BSOG has been cut by 25% over the last year, at the same time the re-imbursement rate for concessionary passes has been cut by a similar amount. At the same time the WA has cut funding to councils for socially neccessary services. Hence when Arriva pulled out of Ceredigion there was no money to replace the services by the councils and money had to be provided by the WA ( and before you claim the councils put the tenders out... yes but using money provided by the WA {check the TrawsCymru publicity})

It's an economic fact that every time there is a cut to concessionary pass funding and/or BSOG then more services become uneconomic and are withdrawn from commercial operations. The councils, having had their funding cut, are unable to fund replacements and it is left to the WA to dictate what they want.

It does look like partial re-regulation I suppose, but since you are left wing why do you not support re-regulation? Is it just the back-door approach, or the fact the regulation is being done by the distant AMs in Cardiff Bay rather than local councils who (we hope) know their area's requirements better? I've only ever known deregulated bus services, so I'm not sure I know enough to have an opinion on whether regulated would be better, apart from the fact that Richards-Arriva competition wasn't doing (m)any favours (quite the opposite in many cases).

In a similar vein, it is an accepted fact that dial-a-ride services cost between 2 and 3 times the amount that a normal fixed route does.

Really? Why do they (other than Bwcabus, which you've explained) exist then?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No it is NOT more than one route... it IS one route with more than one VARIATION.... in some parts of the UK there are services where no 2 journeys follow exactly the same route... and no-one seems to have problems.



The point of deregulation was that services would be provided commercially, with COUNCILS providing socially neccessary but uneconomic services through competitive tendering.

The big problem now is that the Welsh Assembly want to re-regulate through the back door. Don't believe me? Look at the facts.

BSOG has been cut by 25% over the last year, at the same time the re-imbursement rate for concessionary passes has been cut by a similar amount. At the same time the WA has cut funding to councils for socially neccessary services. Hence when Arriva pulled out of Ceredigion there was no money to replace the services by the councils and money had to be provided by the WA ( and before you claim the councils put the tenders out... yes but using money provided by the WA {check the TrawsCymru publicity})

It's an economic fact that every time there is a cut to concessionary pass funding and/or BSOG then more services become uneconomic and are withdrawn from commercial operations. The councils, having had their funding cut, are unable to fund replacements and it is left to the WA to dictate what they want.

In a similar vein, it is an accepted fact that dial-a-ride services cost between 2 and 3 times the amount that a normal fixed route does. So why have Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire invested so heavily in Bwcabus to replace withdrawn services. Oh yes that's because tendered services would require them to spend money they don't have whereas Bwcabus is funded by WA development money.

Don't get me wrong, I have been a Labour supporter all my life but the Goverment we have in the Assembly would make Michael Foot and Lenin look right wing.

Not quite certain why Rhygaled responded to TLs post in another thread

By what definition of route? I used the term 'service numbers' rather than 'route numbers' in the title of this topic on purpose. The two are often used interchangeably to mean the same thing, so if you are using the word 'route' in the context of the term 'route number' then what you say makes sense. However, the word 'route' by itself meansmy bold)(Source of quote). My interpretation of this definition of 'route' is that it is specific, and that a variation to one route creates a different route. To put it another way, if we are being strict about the use of the word, a route is immutable, like a number. If you have the number 'one' and you add 'two' to it, you don't change the number 'one' you get a completely different number as the result.

I have not been using the bus as much as I used to, and despite that between Dec 2013 and Dec 2014 I have seen passengers on the wrong bus twice. Once prior to Dec 2013, when most of the 'variations' were clearly labeled with different service numbers, I saw passengers who had failed to board a service that would have taken them where they wanted to go, again because of a 'variation' as you put it.

I think that Teflon Lettuce was saying that it's one service (or corridor) that can follow a number of deviations and hence has one number. It is not uncommon, as they said.

Based on your statement above, if when services were "clearly labelled" that they "failed to board a service that would have taken them where they wanted to go"..... How does that happen? Did they not ask the driver? How did you know that they wanted that service? Why didn't you tell them? The service was clearly labelled so how did the service number confuse the issue?

In fact, numbering each and every variation could cause more confusion. I want to travel on the T5..... However, for most passengers, any of the variations will take them where they want to go. One service number makes more sense to them rather than having the T5A, T5B or T5C.

I used to live in a rural part of England where services seldom followed the same route on the same day. Quoting from a timetable from 1986, the service:

• Had one route at the bottom part of the valley except the morning service into town and the afternoon service extended to the schools but also diverted to serve one village (but at no other time and not Saturdays)
• On Friday, at the middle part, it diverted to serve a village that wasn't served on other days, to cater for market day traffic
• On Saturday, just before the town at the top of the valley, it diverted to serve a section of route that was served by another service on Mon to Fri

All journeys had the same number. No one ever got confused by the variations. People unfamiliar with the area would ask the driver anyway and yes, it was a tourist area in a national park so there were non locals. The major question would usually be people asking if it was the bus to the large town to the bottom of the valley, only because it actually showed another major town as the destination as it connected with a major route - nowadays we'd show it as being SMALLTOWN for LARGETOWN.

Again, I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not quite certain why Rhygaled responded to TLs post in another thread

I thought the matter was more-relevant to that topic than this one. However, since you have raised specific questions about my examples, this topic is probably appropriate.

I think that Teflon Lettuce was saying that it's one service (or corridor) that can follow a number of deviations and hence has one number. It is not uncommon

It is not uncommon, yes. That doesn't change the fact that, when there are variations within a single service/corridor, displaying the service number on the bus does not add much additional information, if any. Where all the variations have their own route numbers, the route number is conveying additional information.

based on your statement above, if when services were "clearly labelled" that they "failed to board a service that would have taken them where they wanted to go"..... How does that happen? Did they not ask the driver? How did you know that they wanted that service? Why didn't you tell them? The service was clearly labelled so how did the service number confuse the issue?

If we consider the X50 service from Dec 2013 up until the introduction of the T5, there were three routes/variations, all under the 'X50' designation:

• Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Cardigan
• Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - New Quay - Cardigan
• Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - New Quay - Aberporth - Cardigan

Prior to that, however, there were four:

1. Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Cardigan
2. Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - New Quay - Aberporth - Cardigan
3. Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - New Quay - Cardigan
4. Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Aberporth - Cardigan

At the time of the passengers who "failed to board a service that would have taken them where they wanted to go", as I said most of these were clearly labeled. The first was the 'X50' and the second was the '550'. 3. and 4. however were labeled as either '550' or 'X50', seemingly at random (there were only a handful of workings using those routes, hence most services were clearly labeled, but the ones using those routes were not).

The poor souls who got left behind encounted variation 4. on the above list. The working in question started from Aberaeron and carried service number 'X50'. I was on the 'connecting' Arriva service from Aberystwyth, but it missed the 'connection'. I was thus stuck in Aberaeron for a while and met the passengers for Aberporth who had not boarded the bus due to assuming it did not go via Aberporth. Too late to tell them about the varation because, as I said, I had missed the 'connection' myself.

After Dec 2013, with the single number, we have the opposite problem: passengers boarding the wrong service. In the two relatively recent cases I mentioned, I did not speak to the passengers concerned.

In the first instance, on a Northbound working (via New Quay only), we had got to about here (the roundabout where the bus leaves the main road to go to Aberporth) when some passengers suddenly jumped up and got the driver to stop and let them off. Obviously they knew the road, but assumed the bus would go that way and didn't realise that this one didn't until they saw us passing the junction. I don't know why the driver didn't tell them when they boarded and can only guess they had bought some kind of rover ticket earlier which they showed to the driver on boarding without stating their destination.

In the other case, a southbound working, the passengers (again for Aberporth) were told by the driver on boarding. The driver suggested they get off at Aberaeron, and if I recall correctly reminded them to do so when we got there. Had they known before boarding though we don't know whether they would have prefered to wait an hour in Aberystwyth rather than Aberaeron.

However, for most passengers, any of the variations will take them where they want to go. One service number makes more sense to them rather than having the T5A, T5B or T5C.

I see what you are getting at, but the detours result in a fairly large time penalty which I'm pretty sure must dent the use by through passengers. I therefore disagree that 'for most passengers, any of the variations will take them where they want to go', since because of the routing alot of the traffic is to/from places on the Aberporth and, in particular, New Quay loops. The sole-remaining direct service (which on college days is duplicated between Aberaeron and Cardigan, with the through bus now being a 'T5' but the short working still designated 'X50') in each direction, but particularly the northbound due to the time it runs, could be a shock for passengers used to the 'T5' and 'X50' 'always' going via New Quay.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is not uncommon, yes. That doesn't change the fact that, when there are variations within a single service/corridor, displaying the service number on the bus does not add much additional information, if any.

I was thus stuck in Aberaeron for a while and met the passengers for Aberporth who had not boarded the bus due to assuming it did not go via Aberporth. Too late to tell them about the varation because, as I said, I had missed the 'connection' myself.


In the other case, a southbound working, the passengers (again for Aberporth) were told by the driver on boarding. The driver suggested they get off at Aberaeron, and if I recall correctly reminded them to do so when we got there. Had they known before boarding though we don't know whether they would have prefered to wait an hour in Aberystwyth rather than Aberaeron.

I see what you are getting at, but the detours result in a fairly large time penalty which I'm pretty sure must dent the use by through passengers. I therefore disagree that 'for most passengers, any of the variations will take them where they want to go', since because of the routing alot of the traffic is to/from places on the Aberporth and, in particular, New Quay loops. The sole-remaining direct service (which on college days is duplicated between Aberaeron and Cardigan, with the through bus now being a 'T5' but the short working still designated 'X50') in each direction, but particularly the northbound due to the time it runs, could be a shock for passengers used to the 'T5' and 'X50' 'always' going via New Quay.

Firstly, and let's try not to get into too much detail. Of the instances you relate:

A bus had assumed it didn't go via Aberporth. They could have asked the driver, they could have checked the timetable. In fact, who in an area of limited public transport like West Wales would rock on up to the bus stop without consulting a timetable to see when the bus would run?

As for the other example where people were advised to get off. That's a red herring. They either get that and walk OR wait for the next one. Either way, they've turned up at a certain time for a bus that doesn't actually go where they want to go, service number or otherwise.

The vast majority of the journeys share the majority of the route. Where there is a major variation, then yes I see your point (as I've said before) but having a raft of service numbers can be as confusing if not more so.

Also, I know you're fixated on speeding up travel times for through passengers. However, remember that Ceredigion has the second lowest population density in Wales (43/km2), Carmarthenshire is fourth lowest (77/km2) with Powys the lowest (26/km2). In such poor territory, you can seldom justify missing out substantial villages and, in the economic climate, the funds simply aren't available to provide masses of additional resources to enable it anyway.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

.It does look like partial re-regulation I suppose, but since you are left wing why do you not support re-regulation? Is it just the back-door approach, or the fact the regulation is being done by the distant AMs in Cardiff Bay rather than local councils who (we hope) know their area's requirements better? I've only ever known deregulated bus services, so I'm not sure I know enough to have an opinion on whether regulated would be better, apart from the fact that Richards-Arriva competition wasn't doing (m)any favours (quite the opposite in many cases).

Quite simply I do not support re-regulation because the despite all it's faults the deregulated regime we have now is far superior to the regulations that existed before.
The biggest problem with bus services before 1986 was POLITICAL INTERFERENCE. In my hometown (Luton) we had services being run with double deckers on a 15 or 12 min frequency that couldn't cope with the number of passengers using them, while we had other routes that we lightly loaded and loss making. The councillors responsible for negotiating the block grant (and therefore deciding the route network and service frequency lived on the lightly loaded routes. Can you guess which routes were cut and which were strengthened? Ask any ex-NBC manager what they thought of regulation and block grants.

The only way politicians should be involved in bus service provision is in providing a properly funded concessionary fares scheme and by legislating so that bus services receive the same rebate on their fuel as do train and airline operators... both of whom receive 100% fuel duty rebate.

Yes there would still be a rump of services that still wouldn't be commercial, which should be provided by competetive tendering by LOCAL councils (who should know their area better than some AM with a vested interest.

Really? Why do they (other than Bwcabus, which you've explained) exist then?

well I can think of no other dial a ride service that isn't provided as part of a community transport project or for specialist services such as those for disabled passengers. As to why they would exist... who knows... but we all know that politicians like beaurocracy and they also like spending our money like water without looking at the true overall costs.

If you think that Bwcabus is good value for money then just have a look when you're out and about and see for yourself... 90% of the time the buses are parked up in laybys and even when in service they rarely have more than one or 2 people aboard. On top of that the fixed overheads are much higher than a normal service if only because you have to employ someone to answer the phone and take bookings.

That, incedently is why Bryans Coaches withdrew their pre booking service on the 701 when BSOG and reimbursement rates were cut... to reduce overheads by making the person who took the bookings redundant!

 

[WelshBuses93]

http://www.trawscymru.info/visitor-guides/
The T2 is actually on the map!

 

[Rhydgaled]

http://www.trawscymru.info/visitor-guides/
The T2 is actually on the map!

But still does not have its own page. They really don't seem to be able to make up their minds whether the T2 is officially TrawsCymru or not.

Also, that map is a bit odd, for a few reasons:

• Some of it, for example the T5 between Cardigan and Fishguard, looks to be quite accurately drawn (not like a diagramatic/tube-map style) but other parts don't (eg. between Cardigan and Aberaeron on T5)
• The rail lines to Pembroke Dock / Tenby, Fishguard and Milford Haven are not shown (the Milford Haven line appears to terminate at Haverfordwest). I can understand why the ValleyLines aren't on the map, it would be too cluttered, but why leave out Pembroke, Fishguard and Milford?
• A station symbol is shown at most points where TrawsCymru serves railway stations, but not Carmarthen, and a station symbol is shown at Fishguard even though the T5 does not go to Fishguard Harbour station.
• There is a short rail branch line on the map that doesn't exist in reality (linking Builth Wells to the Heart Of Wales Line) or is there a bus service operated by ATW between Builth Road and Builth Wells that I'm not aware of?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The vast majority of the journeys share the majority of the route. Where there is a major variation, then yes I see your point (as I've said before) but having a raft of service numbers can be as confusing if not more so.

Well, I think New Quay and Aberporth are major variations, whereas Penparc Estate and Aberaeron School are not. Coleg Ceridigion/Aberystwyth University falls somewhere in the middle and I cannot decide myself whether it needs a different number or not.

Also, I know you're fixated on speeding up travel times for through passengers. However, remember that Ceredigion has the second lowest population density in Wales (43/km2), Carmarthenshire is fourth lowest (77/km2) with Powys the lowest (26/km2). In such poor territory, you can seldom justify missing out substantial villages and, in the economic climate, the funds simply aren't available to provide masses of additional resources to enable it anyway.

I understand that. The thing is that I feel TrawsCymru needs to be done well and be taken seriously, otherwise there is no point in a special branding. I seem to recall a few of the other posters here agreeing with me some time ago that the 550 shouldn't have been part of TrawsCambria. The T5 would make sense as local services given seperate route numbers for the major variations, but as a branded long-distance service it is a joke. If we cannot afford to do a long-distance network of direct services then simply allow operators to use their own liveries and forget about a branded network of long-distance services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But still does not have its own page. They really don't seem to be able to make up their minds whether the T2 is officially TrawsCymru or not.

Also, that map is a bit odd, for a few reasons:

• Some of it, for example the T5 between Cardigan and Fishguard, looks to be quite accurately drawn (not like a diagramatic/tube-map style) but other parts don't (eg. between Cardigan and Aberaeron on T5)
• The rail lines to Pembroke Dock / Tenby, Fishguard and Milford Haven are not shown (the Milford Haven line appears to terminate at Haverfordwest). I can understand why the ValleyLines aren't on the map, it would be too cluttered, but why leave out Pembroke, Fishguard and Milford?
• A station symbol is shown at most points where TrawsCymru serves railway stations, but not Carmarthen, and a station symbol is shown at Fishguard even though the T5 does not go to Fishguard Harbour station.
• There is a short rail branch line on the map that doesn't exist in reality (linking Builth Wells to the Heart Of Wales Line) or is there a bus service operated by ATW between Builth Road and Builth Wells that I'm not aware of?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, I think New Quay and Aberporth are major variations, whereas Penparc Estate and Aberaeron School are not. Coleg Ceridigion/Aberystwyth University falls somewhere in the middle and I cannot decide myself whether it needs a different number or not.

I understand that. The thing is that I feel TrawsCymru needs to be done well and be taken seriously, otherwise there is no point in a special branding. I seem to recall a few of the other posters here agreeing with me some time ago that the 550 shouldn't have been part of TrawsCambria. The T5 would make sense as local services given seperate route numbers for the major variations, but as a branded long-distance service it is a joke. If we cannot afford to do a long-distance network of direct services then simply allow operators to use their own liveries and forget about a branded network of long-distance services.

To be fair, on the T4 page, there's a rail icon for Builth but not Llandod Wls!! There is a bus service (45) that sort of links Builth with Builth Road station

As for your second point, the TC website states: "TrawsCymru longer distance bus services are an important part of the integrated public transport network in Wales. Funded by the Welsh Government, the buses provide vital public transport for many communities across Wales, while also giving visitors an accessible, affordable and environmentally friendly option for exploring the scenic beauty of the country." The words "direct" and "express" are not used, and neither is the phrase "limited stop".
And before you mention the wretched Winckler report - just two things.....

According to the biog bit on the Bevan Foundation website, she "has particular expertise on poverty, regeneration and equality issues, writing on and researching these issues extensively as well as commenting in the media" - so not a transport expert and no professional accreditation. Anyone who has such a background might've come up with something more rigorous

Secondly, if you're keen to refer to the report, then can a draw your attention to...

3.10 The third reason for maintaining a ‘hybrid’ TrawsCymru network is that some stakeholders have suggested that the demand for express services is limited, and that communities would be without a bus service if they were not served by TrawsCymru. There is no up to date evidence on passenger demand for express services, although it was concluded in 2003 that demand would not be sufficient to warrant non-stop services. Equally, it cannot be said with certainty that local bus services would not be available if TrawsCymru no longer stopped at intermediate stops – in some cases local authorities may need to step in to support services or to ensure demand-responsive services are available. If they did so there would be a double cost to the public purse.

3.11. What is known, however, is that passenger demand across much of mid Wales is insufficient to support a large-scale commercial bus network. In Wales as a whole, 30% of the bus network is non-commercial services but this rises to more than 95% in Powys. Splitting what demand there is between express and local services seems likely to result, at best, in two, underused subsidised services or, at worst, the prospect of a nearly empty, Government-subsidised coach service bypassing communities where people have no means of getting to work or college.

3.12. The decision is ultimately one of political priorities – whether the need for speed outweighs the need for a bus service. My view is that it does not.

I think it's been discussed ad nauseum - T5 is a personal hobby horse of yours, as is the car vs. bus journey duration and there's little that can be said to influence or debate your views or indeed. Fact is that there is little money available. TC does aim to miss out the worst of the detours but IT IS NOT A PRECISE SCIENCE. In a world of tightening fiscal situations and an area of low population density, those are compromises that have to be considered.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

To be fair, on the T4 page, there's a rail icon for Builth but not Llandod Wls!! There is a bus service (45) that sort of links Builth with Builth Road station

As for your second point, the TC website states: "TrawsCymru longer distance bus services are an important part of the integrated public transport network in Wales. Funded by the Welsh Government, the buses provide vital public transport for many communities across Wales, while also giving visitors an accessible, affordable and environmentally friendly option for exploring the scenic beauty of the country." The words "direct" and "express" are not used, and neither is the phrase "limited stop".
And before you mention the wretched Winckler report - just two things.....

According to the biog bit on the Bevan Foundation website, she "has particular expertise on poverty, regeneration and equality issues, writing on and researching these issues extensively as well as commenting in the media" - so not a transport expert and no professional accreditation. Anyone who has such a background might've come up with something more rigorous

Secondly, if you're keen to refer to the report, then can a draw your attention to...

3.10 The third reason for maintaining a ‘hybrid’ TrawsCymru network is that some stakeholders have suggested that the demand for express services is limited, and that communities would be without a bus service if they were not served by TrawsCymru. There is no up to date evidence on passenger demand for express services, although it was concluded in 2003 that demand would not be sufficient to warrant non-stop services. Equally, it cannot be said with certainty that local bus services would not be available if TrawsCymru no longer stopped at intermediate stops – in some cases local authorities may need to step in to support services or to ensure demand-responsive services are available. If they did so there would be a double cost to the public purse.

3.11. What is known, however, is that passenger demand across much of mid Wales is insufficient to support a large-scale commercial bus network. In Wales as a whole, 30% of the bus network is non-commercial services but this rises to more than 95% in Powys. Splitting what demand there is between express and local services seems likely to result, at best, in two, underused subsidised services or, at worst, the prospect of a nearly empty, Government-subsidised coach service bypassing communities where people have no means of getting to work or college.

3.12. The decision is ultimately one of political priorities – whether the need for speed outweighs the need for a bus service. My view is that it does not.

I think it's been discussed ad nauseum - T5 is a personal hobby horse of yours, as is the car vs. bus journey duration and there's little that can be said to influence or debate your views or indeed. Fact is that there is little money available. TC does aim to miss out the worst of the detours but IT IS NOT A PRECISE SCIENCE. In a world of tightening fiscal situations and an area of low population density, those are compromises that have to be considered.

Lets be honest.... without serious highway improvements then the speed of bus services can't really be improved... as an example Aber- Lampeter by T1 takes 1hr 9 min by 701 takes 57 mins (mainly due to not operating via morrisons and no recovery time at Aberaeron... whilst megabus operating non-stop takes 55 mins.

Whilst I have previously complained about the duplication of 701 by T1 at the same times, I cannot, for the life of me, see what use splitting services into local and express would achieve, apart from extra cost

Truth is, in a deeply rural area such as west wales, the only demand for express long distance services would be such as those provided by 701/750.

That the 701/750 are the only express services operating commercially on a daily basis in West Wales speaks volumes for the demand for such services. And lets be honest, if it wasn't for the Universities in Aber and Lampeter these services would not be commercially viable.