Delays through Gatwick, 29/12

[Hornet]

Yes I know but I think you might struggle to get a 747 into London City Airport and it has refuel in Ireland on the outward journey, but I guess its handy for the city elite. Personally I would prefer to take a 747 than a A318 on longish journey.

One of my most enjoyable landing experiences was landing in a four engined jet at LCY. Did LAX-PPT in a B767 a few years ago. Several hours over the Pacific didn't bother me a bit, unlike the lunatic bus driver who took us from the Terminal Building to our Remote Stand at LAX. The nearest i've been to being in a plane crash in 30 years of flying, (we were virtually driving under the wings of taxying aircraft and it wasn't a pleasant experience).

 

[Marton]

Off topic a little bit and may deserve its own thread but are there many stations that run near airports that have cut out systems if a plane has to make an emergency landing? Other than what's discussed here the only one I know is up in TW Metro land and the Airport trip wire that runs along part of the track before the Newcastle Airport station and this cuts out the current to the OHLE.

I have always assumed that's why there's a raised wire alongside the rail line at Teesside (sorry Durham Tees Valley).

The only problem there is test there are virtually no planes, although more planes than stopping trains its a close run thing.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Sectional Appendix says there are tripwires at both Glasgow airports but doesn't mention anything for Edinburgh Airport.

 

[Aictos]

To state a aircraft with 4 engines is more safer then one with 2 engines is daft, they are no more safer then each other, the only difference being the number of engines.

If the unthinkable happens, a 2 engine aircraft will simply declare a emergency and be diverted to the nearest airport that could take the aircraft and passengers will be transferred onto another aircraft to continue their flight.

Or to put some dark humor on it, just think of a aircraft as a glider with engines once the engines fail then it's just a glider.

 

[ExRes]

To state a aircraft with 4 engines is more safer then one with 2 engines is daft, they are no more safer then each other, the only difference being the number of engines.

If the unthinkable happens, a 2 engine aircraft will simply declare a emergency and be diverted to the nearest airport that could take the aircraft and passengers will be transferred onto another aircraft to continue their flight.

Or to put some dark humor on it, just think of a aircraft as a glider with engines once the engines fail then it's just a glider.

Who does the pilot of a 2 engine aircraft declare an emergency to, if the unthinkable happens, when he/she is half way across the atlantic ocean ?

 

[Yabbadabba]

Can this thread be re named general aircraft emergencies lol

 

[Aictos]

Who does the pilot of a 2 engine aircraft declare an emergency to, if the unthinkable happens, when he/she is half way across the atlantic ocean ?

I'm gonna take that as being sarcastic but anyway, I would say to the Air Traffic Controller responsible for that area be if they based in Europe or in the USA who would take the required action.

In a nutshell, I too was terrified of flying long haul on just two engines especially across the Atlantic until I decided one day I had to conquer my fear after being pointed out to me I was just being daft - bottom line was I did it and have no issues flying whatever is allocated to my flight be it 1 engine or 6 engines.

 

[ExRes]

I'm gonna take that as being sarcastic but anyway, I would say to the Air Traffic Controller responsible for that area be if they based in Europe or in the USA who would take the required action.

In a nutshell, I too was terrified of flying long haul on just two engines especially across the Atlantic until I decided one day I had to conquer my fear after being pointed out to me I was just being daft - bottom line was I did it and have no issues flying whatever is allocated to my flight be it 1 engine or 6 engines.

I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm just asking what the pilot is expected to do when he/she are nowhere near an airport and have 2 failed engines on a 2 engine aircraft, is that not a fair question in response to your belief that there's no difference between 2 engine and 4 engine aircraft ?

 

[Carlisle]

Who does the pilot of a 2 engine aircraft declare an emergency to, if the unthinkable happens, when he/she is half way across the atlantic ocean ?

A few years ago I recall Virgin Atlantics aircraft having "four engines for long haul" written on the back of their planes , so it must have been their policy for quite a while

 

[Stompehh]

A few years ago I recall Virgin Atlantics aircraft having "four engines for long haul" written on the back of their planes , so it must have been their policy for quite a while

*Except for our A330s and (soon) 787s

 

[jon91]

I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm just asking what the pilot is expected to do when he/she are nowhere near an airport and have 2 failed engines on a 2 engine aircraft, is that not a fair question in response to your belief that there's no difference between 2 engine and 4 engine aircraft ?

Want to offer odds on both engines failing simultaneously?

 

[edwin_m]

Want to offer odds on both engines failing simultaneously?

There are several situations where both engines could fail from the same cause, particularly fuel system problems or just running out of the stuff. However these would affect all the engines however many there were.

 

[Carlisle]

*Except for our A330s and (soon) 787s

Yes I'm referring to the time when they only operated 747s and A340s about 10 -15 years ago

 

[Hornet]

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010824-1

Air Transat flight that ran out of fuel over the Atlantic. Also Planes are designed to land on water. Why do you think that they advise you about lifejackets during the safety talk?

 

[dysonsphere]

On the subject of overruns etc White Waltham airfield has an alarm button for the Great Western main line in case of an aircraft running off the end of runway and onto main line.

 

[ExRes]

Want to offer odds on both engines failing simultaneously?

If I remember rightly there was the BA 747 that lost all 4 engines due to excessive dust in the air which, fortunately, didn't result in disaster, if that could happen then I'm darned sure 2 engines could fail at the same time
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010824-1

Air Transat flight that ran out of fuel over the Atlantic. Also Planes are designed to land on water. Why do you think that they advise you about lifejackets during the safety talk?

Do they not advise you about lifejackets because they are required to ?, even so I'd rather not rely on one to get me half way across the Atlantic for instance

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If I remember rightly there was the BA 747 that lost all 4 engines due to excessive dust in the air which, fortunately, didn't result in disaster, if that could happen then I'm darned sure 2 engines could fail at the same time

Yes, that was due to a volcanic eruption - the aircraft flew into the ash cloud. It was in Indonesia on 24th June 1982 and the aircraft involved was G-BDXH.

 

[Hornet]

If I remember rightly there was the BA 747 that lost all 4 engines due to excessive dust in the air which, fortunately, didn't result in disaster, if that could happen then I'm darned sure 2 engines could fail at the same time
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do they not advise you about lifejackets because they are required to ?, even so I'd rather not rely on one to get me half way across the Atlantic for instance

['Do they not advise you about lifejackets because they are required to ?']. Yes, seeing as you might have to evacuate a plane after a controlled landing on water. See link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

BA009 (B747) injested volcanic ash over SE Asia. Captain Eric Moody was the pilot of that flight, and was also one of the people the BBC had on talking about the Virgin B747 incident at Gatwick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9

 

[ExRes]

Thanks for the links Hornet, I found it particularly interesting to see the piece of the BA Flight 9 report stating that at 37000ft the aircraft was only capable of gliding for 23 minutes and 91 nautical miles, I'm surprised it's that little

If I ever set foot on an aircraft again I think i'll demand a pilot mentored by Captain Moody

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There are several situations where both engines could fail from the same cause, particularly fuel system problems or just running out of the stuff. However these would affect all the engines however many there were.

There was that BA (I think) plane that made the emergency landing at Heathrow a few years ago where ice had caused problems I think it was ice on a heat exchange thing or a filter

 

[47802]

There will still be some A380s to choose from. Having been 8000 feet above the Atlantic and 'enjoyed' a spectacular engine failure, followed by a full emergency landing, I can confirm that the level of 'enjoyment' would have been no different if we'd had another 3 engines going rather than just the one we did have. You can only ruin one set of underwear at a time!

(It was a turboprop, and not transatlantic, but I should imagine the feeling would be much the same).

I think the choice of A380's will be somewhat limited eg BA have I think 52 747's and they are buying 12 A380's the rest are likely to get replaced by 787's and A350's

I'm not saying Twinjet's are unsafe over the Atlantic as clearly the aviation authorities think otherwise I believe the A350 can have ETOPS 370mins rating, but when I book my next Virgin flight to America this year I will still be looking for 747 flights as a preference.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was that BA (I think) plane that made the emergency landing at Heathrow a few years ago where ice had caused problems I think it was ice on a heat exchange thing or a filter

Indeed it was a 777 and the pilot extended the flaps so that it managed to get to the fringes of the runway

 

[edwin_m]

Also Planes are designed to land on water. Why do you think that they advise you about lifejackets during the safety talk?

This can be survivable as demonstrated by the ditching on the Hudson. However this had about the best possible circumstances of an experienced pilot, calm water and tour boats close by that could start rescue operations immediately. Either a rough sea or having to stay in/on the plane for a period of time awaiting rescue would change the picture completely.

 

[najaB]

A bit late to the party, but thought I'd point out that ETOPS rules now apply to all aircraft regardless of the number of engines.

 

[Carlisle]

when I book my next Virgin flight to America this year I will still be looking for 747 flights as a preference.

I'm not aware there are any actual statistics or proof/history that suggest a greater risk for twin engine Trans Atlantic flights as opposed to four

 

[najaB]

I'm not aware there are any actual statistics or proof/history that suggest a greater risk for twin engine Trans Atlantic flights as opposed to four

Historically it was the case as inflight engine shutdowns were a relatively common event - think back to the early days of piston and low-bypass jets - but these days they are statistically a rarity. So there is little likelihood of a failure mode that would affect two engines but not four.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

This can be survivable as demonstrated by the ditching on the Hudson. However this had about the best possible circumstances of an experienced pilot, calm water and tour boats close by that could start rescue operations immediately. Either a rough sea or having to stay in/on the plane for a period of time awaiting rescue would change the picture completely.

The biggest risk when landing on the water is probably when the engines make contact with the water first, if they get ripped off the wings from the forces involved with landing

 

[edwin_m]

The biggest risk when landing on the water is probably when the engines make contact with the water first, if they get ripped off the wings from the forces involved with landing

The engine mounts include pins which are designed to fail at a certain stress, so that the engine will separate instead of damaging the wing. I'm not sure if this happened in the Hudson ditching.

 

[Aictos]

I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm just asking what the pilot is expected to do when he/she are nowhere near an airport and have 2 failed engines on a 2 engine aircraft, is that not a fair question in response to your belief that there's no difference between 2 engine and 4 engine aircraft ?

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you but to answer your query, they would make a emergency mayday call to the air traffic controller responsible for the flight in their area who would then arrange for the rescue operation to begin.

 

[najaB]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you but to answer your query, they would make a emergency mayday call to the air traffic controller responsible for the flight in their area who would then arrange for the rescue operation to begin.

If you're out where ETOPS rules apply then you're almost certainly not in controlled airspace. So you would leave your track and make a mayday call on VHF to anybody in range and then if you're still in the air, see if you can raise oceanic control on HF.

 

[47802]

I'm not aware there are any actual statistics or proof/history that suggest a greater risk for twin engine Trans Atlantic flights as opposed to four

I'm not saying there is, its just my personal preference, of course at one time the limits on twin engine aircraft were such it made Trans Atlantic flights a no go, hence we had the 3 Engined Tristar and DC10 to get around that problem, however the reliability of engines has improved a lot hence the increasing ETOPS.

I do find it amazing that I make some comment about my personal preferences whether they are statistically valid or not, is suddenly taken as me trying to make a an actual fact, similarly when I suggested that it was handy that 747's have additional landing gear compared to some other wide bodied jets it was taken that I was proposing that all other jets should have additional landing gear when I made no such comment, however from my own personal prefer I would still prefer the 747 with the extra landing gear and the 4 engines, regardless of what the stats might say and I know other people who feel the same.