317/7 movement update @ December 2014

[Techniquest]

Better late than never as they say!

 

[jopsuk]

Don't understand this neither. Surely better, if LOROL are getting the \5 fleet, to bulk that out with \8s- or even revert them back to \5 by taking out the luggage racks and adding back seats- with the whole of the \7 fleet kept together with GA

 

[Class 170101]

Are the 317/7s likely to be reliable having been mostly stored for three years?

If not then I can see why GA don't want them.

 

[badassunicorn]

As far as I'm aware, all save maybe 2 (the ones GA are using presently) have been "refurbed", ie, any corrosion dealt with, new carpet fitted and repainted into white with red doors. It makes no sense in my mind why these longer distance 100mph capable trains are going to be used and abused on inner suburban working. Not unless they converted them all to 722 spec interior, which I don't see happening anytime soon. Total waste of good stock which has been pointed out has been languishing for no reason for some time.
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Also, if GA's /6's are being tarted up a bit, that would mean all the GA WA fleet would be somewhat uniform, painted the same, decently fitted inside and generally looking good. Now with no plans that I've heard to refresh the /5 and /8 its going to be a mish mash for years to come. Unless Boris does take the /5 and /8's, and once they are cascaded they get done up. They are in a truly shocking state.

 

[bramling]

Utter madness is having the units out of service for 2-3 years...

Yep. If nothing else, First Capital Connect could have done with a few extra 317s. To this day there are still some 4-car services in the peaks which could well be lengthened, plus a reshuffle of diagrams could have created some additional 12-car 365 services which would be most welcome.

 

[smudga331]

would the /7's not have originally been better utilised on runs such as the Harwich International ferry runs, but taking some stops away. Sometimes on those services in the morning (During Rush hour) 40 or 50 people from the ferry get on with luggage and (due to it being a stopping service) by Witham, the trains is getting full and everybody is tripping over and unable to move due to the luggage. I remember when the boat trains used to be fast to London, or even just stopping at Colchester like it used to too. They could possibly a good shout for Southend services too for Southend Airport. These changes would free up some 321's that could even head over to the WA side of things from the GEML.....Just an idea

 

[sd0733]

I may be imagining things here but wasn't there a post on this forum somewhere a few weeks back regarding the 317s saying that units will work Greater Anglia and London Overground workings during the same diagram. If that is the case it could be that they are worked as a common pool with other 317s and not restricted to just LO workings even if they are officially the lease holder?

Edit: Found the one that says about cross working- post 7 in this thread.

 

[Class 170101]

would the /7's not have originally been better utilised on runs such as the Harwich International ferry runs, but taking some stops away. Sometimes on those services in the morning (During Rush hour) 40 or 50 people from the ferry get on with luggage and (due to it being a stopping service) by Witham, the trains is getting full and everybody is tripping over and unable to move due to the luggage. I remember when the boat trains used to be fast to London, or even just stopping at Colchester like it used to too. They could possibly a good shout for Southend services too for Southend Airport. These changes would free up some 321's that could even head over to the WA side of things from the GEML.....Just an idea

Insufficient capacity on GEML for these services to be fast trains in the peaks.

As noted elsewhere on this board Class 317s are also not permitted on Southend Victoria or Southminster branches.

 

[smudga331]

Insufficient capacity on GEML for these services to be fast trains in the peaks.

As noted elsewhere on this board Class 317s are also not permitted on Southend Victoria or Southminster branches.

ahhh I see, I hadn't realised, but that explains it

 

[jon0844]

All bar 317722 reported on wnxx as being leased by AGA until May 2015, after which they will go to LOROL. 317714 to move to Ilford for reinstatement, others to have minor work/exams completed and will re-enter service, allowing 317709/719 (in service?) to be stood down and also receive exams prior to hand over to LOROL.

Saw 317722 just now. Looks weird with half NXEA livery and half AGA livery!

 

[badassunicorn]

It really does right! Does anyone know where the new stock for the WA inners once it gets sorted will be maintained? Ilford still? Or maybe Hornsey? Or somewhere new?

 

[87015]

It really does right! Does anyone know where the new stock for the WA inners once it gets sorted will be maintained? Ilford still? Or maybe Hornsey? Or somewhere new?

IL.

LO would appear to be taking the initiative in having enough units available for service and an enhanced maintenance regime against what GA currently provide for WA inners. No surprises there, aga being unlikely to invest more than 50p unless they are made to...

 

[SF-02]

Exactly, this is why people want LO to take over. SE London badly needs them.
LO show initiative and succeed massively. It's not rocket science. GA and SE do very little, and the Dft is not going to do anything to push them it seems. 2 trains an hour in the evenings and Sundays, and a lack of rolling stock is what they provide. LO, under TfL, go out and secure trains in storage and order new stock.

The sooner the model of devolution we see with TfL extends all over London and other cities the better. So much potential is squandered under the current system of Whitehall management.

 

[badassunicorn]

TFL seem to have an endless supply of money, which I guess is why they can do all this amazing stuff. If TFL are going to do enhanced maintenance etc on their stock (until the new stock arrives), it'll still be done in the same place by the same staff doing the same thing surely? It won't be TFL fitters doing it, still GA?

 

[jon0844]

TfL must be proving to the whole country that if you have more joined up thinking, invest in brighter stations, modern trains (okay, these will eventually be old trains!), more security/staff, more frequent services, easier ticketing - and so on - you increase usage.

This is the thinking we need for local buses, and no doubt rail services all over. The TSGN management contract is a bit closer to this, but still not quite there. In effect, we need a TfL style way of managing the entire UK rail network. Call it BR if you like (even if it's more or less just ATOC) managing a series of management contracts and getting rid of franchises as we know them.

It seems to me a better option than renationalisation.

 

[badassunicorn]

^ I agree with this.

 

[bramling]

TfL must be proving to the whole country that if you have more joined up thinking, invest in brighter stations, modern trains (okay, these will eventually be old trains!), more security/staff, more frequent services, easier ticketing - and so on - you increase usage.

This is the thinking we need for local buses, and no doubt rail services all over. The TSGN management contract is a bit closer to this, but still not quite there. In effect, we need a TfL style way of managing the entire UK rail network. Call it BR if you like (even if it's more or less just ATOC) managing a series of management contracts and getting rid of franchises as we know them.

It seems to me a better option than renationalisation.

All well and good, but as a regular user I don't want to see increased usage! Fine if the capacity can be provided to cater, but not ok with a network running at capacity in places.

 

[Wolfie]

All well and good, but as a regular user I don't want to see increased usage! Fine if the capacity can be provided to cater, but not ok with a network running at capacity in places.

Increased capacity is very definitely part of the TfL/LO model. On the NLL for example 3 car 313s every 15mins in the peak went to every 7/8mins then to new 3 car 378s which were then extended to 4 cars and are now being extended to 5 cars....

 

[SF-02]

TFL seem to have an endless supply of money, which I guess is why they can do all this amazing stuff. If TFL are going to do enhanced maintenance etc on their stock (until the new stock arrives), it'll still be done in the same place by the same staff doing the same thing surely? It won't be TFL fitters doing it, still GA?

Or maybe TfL are better at obtaining and raising income thus can fund improvements? Their funding is being heavily cut but still adopting big improvements. By staffing stations they reduce fare evasion which is endemic in some places. It also provides a safer railway and encourages use, as does frequency increases. They do the basics well that greatly increases income.

 

[SprinterMan]

I have heard Crossrail is getting 44 Class 315s. This (I assume) means LOROL is getting 17 Class 315s, 15 Class 317/5s (all of them) and 8 Class 317/7s (all except the demonstrator 317722). LOROL like having pleasant stock and seem to have more money to play with than AGA so I guess it makes sense for them to have the 317/7s, even if the seating is all wrong. Maybe they will run in pairs to make up for the low number of seats. It is just good to see them back in use.

Adam

 

[badassunicorn]

Hopefully then the /8's will get refurbed at some point to go with the /6's.

 

[SprinterMan]

Hopefully then the /8's will get refurbed at some point to go with the /6's.

Noooo! The /8s are the best 317s out there :P Leave them alone, you saw what happened to 317722

Adam

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, the seats are like trampolines. Great fun for my son!

 

[badassunicorn]

Haha! You're right, all I meant was tarting up, new covers, carpets etc. I guess we can dream ^_^

 

[evergreenadam]

I have heard Crossrail is getting 44 Class 315s. This (I assume) means LOROL is getting 17 Class 315s, 15 Class 317/5s (all of them) and 8 Class 317/7s (all except the demonstrator 317722). LOROL like having pleasant stock and seem to have more money to play with than AGA so I guess it makes sense for them to have the 317/7s, even if the seating is all wrong. Maybe they will run in pairs to make up for the low number of seats. It is just good to see them back in use.

Adam

Does that mean that the combined LOROL and AGA fleet total is 8x4car units higher than AGA operate at present? If so then extra capacity will be provided on the West Anglia routes, presumably more 8 car trains instead of 4 cars which is great news.

 

[SprinterMan]

Does that mean that the combined LOROL and AGA fleet total is 8x4car units higher than AGA operate at present? If so then extra capacity will be provided on the West Anglia routes, presumably more 8 car trains instead of 4 cars which is great news.

Indeed so, the stored Class 317/7s are currently being refurbished and returned to use. (Having said that, 317709 and 317719 are currently used by GA to cover for holidaying 379s)

Adam