Conflict between NRCOC and Railway Byelaws

[CE142]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have been following a thread on the Northern Facebook page with interest, it appears that someone has successfully appealed against the £80 'fine' that Northern sent out, in court.

From what I can work out either they, or a family member travelled from Lancaster to Bare Lane without a ticket, STM were doing a barrier block, details were taken an a request for £81.90 was sent, it looks like it was thrown out in court as Northern was in breach of NRCOC 2(ii)

From I can work out the passenger walked past an open ticket office and two working ticket machines at Lancaster and intended to pay on board from the Conductor on the train.

That is a breach of Byelaw 18 we know that.

BUT....
NRCOC 2(ii) is the interesting one and looks like they won their case on the strength of what it says. Quoting directly from it, it says the following:

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply

(ii)
the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you
are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.
In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey

Now on Northern services there is a poster that says something like " The Conductor will be happy to sell you a ticket if you do not have one"

So have Northern Rail made a monumental cock-up with the quote on that poster, as they are saying you can buy tickets on board as per NRCOC 2(ii) or has the judge interpreted it wrong and Byelaw 18 should apply in all circumstances?
Thoughts gents?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I thought they only place that poster at stations without ticket machines or offices?

 

[CE142]

No it is in the poster case on the majority of the units.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Is that quote missing some context? It would be really silly of Northern to give everyone permission to buy on board, even from stations like Lancaster

 

[matt_world2004]

But even if you travel via a manned ticket office and you say see the poster saying you can buy tickets on the train because it is on display at an unmanned station that you get off at or change trains at that is hideously confusing. Instead the poster should warn customers they can only buy tickets on the train if they get on the train at an unmanned station

 

[PermitToTravel]

Absolutely agree, although I wonder if there are many unmanned interchange stations?

 

[bb21]

So do we know for sure that the case was thrown out on the basis of breach of contract with regard to NRCoC Condition 2 or is this all just speculation?

Now on Northern services there is a poster that says something like " The Conductor will be happy to sell you a tick

I would be interested to see that poster.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So have Northern Rail made a monumental cock-up with the quote on that poster, as they are saying you can buy tickets on board as per NRCOC 2(ii) or has the judge interpreted it wrong and Byelaw 18 should apply in all circumstances?

We shouldn't be too excited by this. The outcome has no bearing on any other incident nor on any other challenge in other Court hearings.
It would have been a bench of 3 lay Magistrates, not a Judge, and they would only be expected to make a decision on the matter put before them - i.e. the precise Evidence from each party. They are not expected to interpret the regulations or legislation any further than to form a balanced opinion of the interpretation(s) that have been put in front of them by the 2 advocates.
(It would be a matter for a higher Court to be asked to give a ruling on meanings).

I can't agree that there is anything resembling 'a monumental cock-up', and anyway, it is quite common for a person represented by a competent Criminal Defence solicitor to be given a Discharge following argument about the wording of notices or other docmentation. It's one of the skills of an experienced Defence solicitor. It sets no precedent but can lead to the tightening up the wording of any poorly drafted paperwork to reduce the chance of a repeat discharge if it was thought that the person detected was, technically, in breach (in this case, was attempting to evade their fare).

That is a breach of Byelaw 18 we know that.

It wouldn't be an option for the Court to consider a Byelaw Offence if the railway prosecutor wasn't persuing it, and it's clear to me that they wouldn't have been pursuing a Byelaw Offence simply because they were, instead, persuing the alternative of a 'Failure to Pay' notice.

 

[CE142]

So do we know for sure that the case was thrown out on the basis of breach of contract with regard to NRCoC Condition 2 or is this all just speculation?



I would be interested to see that poster.

As mentioned it was posted by the bloke who got off in court on the Northern Facbook page,the link:
https://www.facebook.com/northernra...90871.277476145608772/824669364222778/?type=1

The bloke concerned is called Sohrab, he posts are all over the place, but by reading it you should get the gist of what went on, you might have to click 'see all replies' though to view some of them.

I will try and get a picture of what the poster on board says and the EXACT WORDING on it. Unless anyone else all ready has a picture of it.

 

[matthewluck]

the poster is here, it only states that the conductor will be happy to sell you a ticket with no caveats


http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/northern-rails-own-posters-expose-risks-of-axing-conductors/

 

[CyrusWuff]

Whilst I can kind of see where he's coming from, given that the poster in question isn't displayed at stations, I don't see how it can be interpreted as a "notice or other publication indicating you can buy on the train" as it wouldn't be seen until after passing an opportunity to pay. YMMV. IANAL.

Granted, the wording could be clearer, but covering all bases would probably require quoting Conditions 2 and 3 in their entirety, which isn't all that feasible on a single A4 poster.

 

[jon0844]

I said ages ago, along with others, that Northern sends out mixed messages at the moment. Surprised it took this long, and that others haven't tried it.

 

[northwichcat]

Instead the poster should warn customers they can only buy tickets on the train if they get on the train at an unmanned station

But then in all the printed Northern timetables they say if you don't use the ticket office/machine when available the conductor will only sell you Anytime tickets on board. That could be interpreted as there is no penalty for not buying before you board unless you want a discounted ticket.

 

[Mag_seven]

What we do not appear to know in this case is whether the passenger concerned actually DID attempt to purchase a ticket on board after having passed the booking office and machines. If they did not then do NT not have a case?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It appears to read that the person travelled from Bare Lane to Lancaster and then Lancaster to Bare Lane, was stopped at Bare Lane on the return and given the £80 notice and a fare of £1.90 (Anytime Single) to pay. If that is the case they had two opportunities to pay the fare, both at Lancaster, without considering either guard.

It seems to me that they found a way out of paying, rather than being honest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the general point, I must admit I find decidedly theoretical Penalty Fares schemes like London Midland's to be very strange.

On LM South if the guard comes through they will sell you a ticket (Anytime only, but in the peak that's all people want - it happens at Tring all the time). Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. There is one who announces on arrival at Euston where he is and that he will sell tickets if you haven't got one.

Yet if you go to the barrier and haven't got a decent reason, you'll get a PF I guess. Or you'll get told to travel back to your destination, as you sometimes hear at MKC when someone gets there with a ticket to Bletchley from the south.

Does this inconsistency actually make sense? Surely in a PF area guards should not sell tickets at all, unless a specific station's TVM is known to be faulty or not accepting certain methods of payment?

It seems to me that Northern are actually stricter (despite having many "Paytrain" routes) than LM are (despite technically operating PFs).

I can see why you don't want guards having to do PFs, as they may find they get threatened or assaulted when on their own, but why not dispense with guards doing revenue entirely and just have revenue teams? (I've *never* seen a revenue team on LM South - I'm pretty sure they don't have any).

Is this rather messy fudge down to issues with loss of commission or something?

Neil

 

[Llanigraham]

There is too little actual details in that FB link to really make any decision.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Does this inconsistency actually make sense? Surely in a PF area guards should not sell tickets at all, unless a specific station's TVM is known to be faulty or not accepting certain methods of payment?

When London Overground staffed/gated their stations and introduced Penalty Fares their guards became non-commercial and had their Avantices taken away (with no reduction in pay, IIRC)

There is too little actual details in that FB link to really make any decision.

Indeed - a very low signal:noise ratio.

 

[northwichcat]

On LM South if the guard comes through they will sell you a ticket (Anytime only, but in the peak that's all people want - it happens at Tring all the time). Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. There is one who announces on arrival at Euston where he is and that he will sell tickets if you haven't got one.

Yet if you go to the barrier and haven't got a decent reason, you'll get a PF I guess. Or you'll get told to travel back to your destination, as you sometimes hear at MKC when someone gets there with a ticket to Bletchley from the south.

Does this inconsistency actually make sense? Surely in a PF area guards should not sell tickets at all, unless a specific station's TVM is known to be faulty or not accepting certain methods of payment?

It seems to me that Northern are actually stricter (despite having many "Paytrain" routes) than LM are (despite technically operating PFs).

I can see why you don't want guards having to do PFs, as they may find they get threatened or assaulted when on their own, but why not dispense with guards doing revenue entirely and just have revenue teams? (I've *never* seen a revenue team on LM South - I'm pretty sure they don't have any).

I think a difficulty with penalty fares is what happens if some passengers have the opportunity to buy before boarding but others do not?

A TVM might be able to issue one passenger with a ticket but not the next. So if one passenger from station X shows the RPI a TVM issued ticket and the next says there was no working TVM, could the second passenger be wrongly issued a penalty fare? Yes TVMs can be automatically reported as out-of-service but it only seems to apply to some faults and not others.

Or with different ticket offices having different hours and current hours not always being well aligned with departure times you might find one passenger purchased a ticket 2 minutes before the ticket office closed and another arrived to find a closed ticket office but still boarded the same train as a passenger with a ticket. In the past I've heard about EMT conductors refusing to sell Off-Peak tickets to people boarding at Widnes because they weren't aware the ticket office was only part-time.

 

[infobleep]

Some South West Trains guards announce if passengers need tickets then come and see them. Does that not encourage people to buy their tickets on board? When in fact they should only be doing that in certain cases which no guard could easily explain.

I've generally only heard this on trains from Portsmouth to Waterloo when joining at Guildford. Clearly such messages are only announced on trains with commercial guards.

Never fully understood why all passenger trains didn't have commercial guards. I believe the Cobham line doesn't but the Portsmouth line does. What's the difference?

 

[yorkie]

Some South West Trains guards announce if passengers need tickets then come and see them. Does that not encourage people to buy their tickets on board? When in fact they should only be doing that in certain cases which no guard could easily explain.

I don't understand what you're trying to say?

On routes where SWT employ commercial Guards, it is part of a commercial Guard's role to sell tickets.

And no, not every SWT station is staffed for the entire duration of service, in fact the majority will not be.

I've generally only heard this on trains from Portsmouth to Waterloo when joining at Guildford. Clearly such messages are only announced on trains with commercial guards.

Indeed.

Never fully understood why all passenger trains didn't have commercial guards. I believe the Cobham line doesn't but the Portsmouth line does. What's the difference?

The difference is that the Guard won't have time to sell tickets when there are a lot of station stops. Remember they have to operate the doors. In theory, on such lines, there may also be more facilities to buy tickets in general (I'm sure there are some stations that are exceptions!)

 

[island]

I think a difficulty with penalty fares is what happens if some passengers have the opportunity to buy before boarding but others do not?

A TVM might be able to issue one passenger with a ticket but not the next. So if one passenger from station X shows the RPI a TVM issued ticket and the next says there was no working TVM, could the second passenger be wrongly issued a penalty fare?

I suspect a passenger in this situation could wind up being reported for prosecution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A TVM might be able to issue one passenger with a ticket but not the next. So if one passenger from station X shows the RPI a TVM issued ticket and the next says there was no working TVM, could the second passenger be wrongly issued a penalty fare? Yes TVMs can be automatically reported as out-of-service but it only seems to apply to some faults and not others.

Logically if an RPI encounters this they should phone base to check, just as Merseyrail RPIs are I believe told to do if a closed ticket office is reported (they're mostly single-staffed with no TVM, so it might require a phone call to establish that the clerk had popped out to use the loo or grit the platform).

Or you could follow Metrolink practice, and state that if you are unable to buy a ticket for any reason, you must use the help point or a mobile phone to call customer services and obtain a reference number before travel, having explained the reason. This has the operational advantage that it means any broken machine will be reported *very* quickly. If you don't a PF is due. It also means that if the reason is *not* acceptable to the TOC, the passenger knows this before they choose to disregard it and board anyway, so there can be no valid arguments.

Or with different ticket offices having different hours and current hours not always being well aligned with departure times you might find one passenger purchased a ticket 2 minutes before the ticket office closed and another arrived to find a closed ticket office but still boarded the same train as a passenger with a ticket. In the past I've heard about EMT conductors refusing to sell Off-Peak tickets to people boarding at Widnes because they weren't aware the ticket office was only part-time.

So phoning base was either (a) too obvious, or (b) they were too arrogant to do so? That's an unprofessional RPI, not a problem with the concept.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The difference is that the Guard won't have time to sell tickets when there are a lot of station stops. Remember they have to operate the doors. In theory, on such lines, there may also be more facilities to buy tickets in general (I'm sure there are some stations that are exceptions!)

While in some circles this is considered swearing, switching Northern to driver-operated doors (rather than full DOO - i.e. the guard remains present but doesn't have to do the doors any more) would have the advantage that it might actually be practical to return to the idea of selling on board, remove the TVMs and be done with it. Some tram systems went that way, e.g. Sheffield and Blackpool, because people just prefer it.

Or you put the TVM on the train, so if you have a problem you have to use the call point while at a station to tell the driver. This approach is common in Germany. (On German DOO lines without TVMs you're told to tell the driver on boarding that you don't have a ticket - this isn't so they sell you one, but they will make a mental note of it and tell any inspectors on board that you did - if you don't those inspectors will charge you a PF).

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Logically if an RPI encounters this they should phone base to check, just as Merseyrail RPIs are I believe told to do if a closed ticket office is reported (they're mostly single-staffed with no TVM, so it might require a phone call to establish that the clerk had popped out to use the loo or grit the platform).

Or you could follow Metrolink practice, and state that if you are unable to buy a ticket for any reason, you must use the help point or a mobile phone to call customer services and obtain a reference number before travel, having explained the reason. This has the operational advantage that it means any broken machine will be reported *very* quickly. If you don't a PF is due. It also means that if the reason is *not* acceptable to the TOC, the passenger knows this before they choose to disregard it and board anyway, so there can be no valid arguments.

OK in the case of Northern how would this work?

Greenbank has a TVM and is unstaffed. How does the RPI know if the TVM has failed and not been able to report the fault? Should they phone the signalman who then walks down to the platform to verify?

How can anyone use a Help point when so few stations have them? Even mobile reception at some stations is dodgy and why should the passenger incur phone call charges because the TOC can't provide working ticketing facilities?

So phoning base was either (a) too obvious, or (b) they were too arrogant to do so? That's an unprofessional RPI, not a problem with the concept.

When you say base where exactly do you mean? In your earlier comment you said base and implied the open ticket office to verify that the clerk had temporarily left the ticket window - which wasn't a scenario I had described. If a ticket office clerk signs off sick at 14:20 and closes the ticket office and a different operator's train departs at 14:30 will phoning 'base' at 14:35 result in that information being relied back?

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK in the case of Northern how would this work?

Greenbank has a TVM and is unstaffed. How does the RPI know if the TVM has failed and not been able to report the fault? Should they phone the signalman who then walks down to the platform to verify?

He could possibly establish it by looking at the issue times of other tickets bought from that station, and the method of payment used. If another ticket was issued after the time the passenger claimed to have used it, and by the same payment method, it was clearly not faulty.

How can anyone use a Help point when so few stations have them?

That would need to be improved. But it could be implemented straight away at stations with that facility.

Even mobile reception at some stations is dodgy and why should the passenger incur phone call charges because the TOC can't provide working ticketing facilities?

Ask Metrolink. But we're moving towards phone calls being a minority use of mobile phones such that they are increasingly free, and data is paid for.

When you say base where exactly do you mean? In your earlier comment you said base and implied the open ticket office to verify that the clerk had temporarily left the ticket window - which wasn't a scenario I had described. If a ticket office clerk signs off sick at 14:20 and closes the ticket office and a different operator's train departs at 14:30 will phoning 'base' at 14:35 result in that information being relied back?

Base = their own TOC's Control, which would make the appropriate contacts and call them back, or decide it wasn't financially worth it to do the research, in which case the passenger should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Neil

 

[infobleep]

I don't understand what you're trying to say?

On routes where SWT employ commercial Guards, it is part of a commercial Guard's role to sell tickets.

And no, not every SWT station is staffed for the entire duration of service, in fact the majority will not be.

Indeed.

The difference is that the Guard won't have time to sell tickets when there are a lot of station stops. Remember they have to operate the doors. In theory, on such lines, there may also be more facilities to buy tickets in general (I'm sure there are some stations that are exceptions!)

The point I was making was that many of the stations on the Cobham are not staffed for long hours so I don't see why they would not require commercial guards but the stations not staffed for long hours on the Portsmouth line would.

I had forgotten about the gaps between stations of course.

However the gaps between stations between Haslemere and Woking isn't so great on the stopping services but it certainly is elsewhere on that line, such as Woking to Waterloo or Clapham Junction, as well as South of Haslemere to Fratton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ask Metrolink. But we're moving towards phone calls being a minority use of mobile phones such that they are increasingly free, and data is paid for.

We need to improve the mobile phone reception at railway stations before such a thing could be rolled out nationally. For example you couldn't ring anyone at Clandon on an O2 data/call plan. There is also the issue of people not charging up their mobile phone. A help point is a good idea but would rail companies want such a thing at every station? Not cheap to install and some stations receive not many passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We need to improve the mobile phone reception at railway stations before such a thing could be rolled out nationally. For example you couldn't ring anyone at Clandon on an O2 data/call plan. There is also the issue of people not charging up their mobile phone. A help point is a good idea but would rail companies want such a thing at every station? Not cheap to install and some stations receive not many passengers.

If several tens of grand for a TVM are justified (they are pretty expensive), maybe a grand for a help point definitely is.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Ask Metrolink.

Metrolink have their own bye-laws and don't have to comply with NRCoC, so they are free to do what they want unlike TOCs. If you take a hot drink on to a Metrolink tram you are in breach of their bye-laws.

If several tens of grand for a TVM are justified (they are pretty expensive), maybe a grand for a help point definitely is.

TVMs are not at every station.

On my local line - Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank are the only stations to have them (other than Interchange stations with other services.)

Due to huge increases in passenger numbers:

Knutsford really needed an additional ticket clerk or TVM for a long time - a TVM is cheaper than a full time employee.

Northwich really needed extended ticket office hours (requiring an additional person) or a TVM - again the TVM is cheaper.

Greenbank really needed a new ticket office at least at peak times or a TVM (TVM is much cheaper.)

Also note you effectively need new call centres to handle the help points if you roll them out station wide (so someone can answer them) which would probably cost around £250,000 per annum not including installation and maintenance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also note you effectively need new call centres to handle the help points if you roll them out station wide (so someone can answer them) which would probably cost around £250,000 per annum not including installation and maintenance.

LM have help points on almost all their stations, so this is clearly not insurmountable.

Neil