What is Going To Happen To The HSTs?

[The Ham]

One of the problems with the HST's is the high track access changes compared with DMU's. Meaning that a new unit may be cheaper as by the time you add in the extra maintenance needed for older units and the costs of a refurbishment to the extra track access charges it could well be better to order new units.

SWT's are unlikely to opt for them, as even if the HST's have 10 years of life left the new franchise is due to start about 5 years after the Scotrail one, eating into the remaining lifespan. Also, it has been hinted that electrification to Salisbury is likely to happen in CP6.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's not just about being sentimental about them. They are still excellent carriages by today's standards, as long as the major structural elements are still sound. If there's scope for using them somewhere, to reduce or eliminate the need to buy some new stock, that's one less thing pushing fares up or preventing national debt and budget deficit coming down. Properly maintained, there's no significant safety concerns with them, and new stock doesn't offer major improvements for passengers that are not also offered by interior refurbishment.

Age alone is a dreadful justification for scrapping well engineered and built carriages. Eventually, corrosion or fatigue may push maintenance costs too high, and that's the time where scrapping becomes the correct economic choice. Any reasonable reuse of them prior to that point is providing the public with value for money.

Maybe their time has come, maybe not, it's still far from clear to me that scrapping is the best option.

By 2020 they will be the best part of 50 years old. As much as I love them, even I know that to make them remain reliable and compliant will require a lot of work.

They need corrosion prevention work and more regular checking than newer stock. Being LHCS they have a different (slower) acceleration profile to multiple units.

The toilets all need changing to retention types and space found for the septic tanks. The air con systems all ideally need replacing with a more modern type (at the moment they are the originals retrofitted with R134a refrigerant instead of the original R12 - using a system designed for R134a will make them work better).

That's just a very few of the systems that will need work.

 

[47802]

I think it should also be remembered that the Scotrail franchise was awarded 35% on quality and 65% on price, and the cheapest bid didn't win, that might not be the case for other franchises, especially the English ones although apparently the Natex bid was for new trains instead of HST's and less subsidy!

I suspect what happens to a number of HST's depends of winning bids for a number of franchises, I suspect HST's will be retained for the FGW direct award and then it will be up to bidders of the new FGW franchise to decide what to do after that, especially as it would seem you don't have to put power doors on them to make them 2020 compliant, so they could be an intrim South West solution with a replacement option in the next franchise.

The next XC franchise will presumably address what happens to XC HST's but I would have thought you would be looking at options for replacement.

I guess using some HST's in the next Welsh franchise or what ever it is replaced with might be a possibility.

 

[yorksrob]

Anyhow, time to get the popcorn out and wait for the first person to suggest the S&C

Without wishing to disrupt the efforts of the popcorn marketing board, given that the S&C up until recently had an Intercity service between Glasgow and Nottingham, and given that a Sunday service between Carlisle and Nottingham has been developed to relieve cross country services, I wonder whether its time to reinstate a daily long distance service across the route (in place of the express return journey)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's just a very few of the systems that will need work.

There's a piece in the current Rail with EMT comments on the maintenance of their HSTs (the VP185 versions).
It gives the impression they can't wait to be shut of them because of the maintenance problems.
They have also decided not to upgrade them for TSI-PRM.
Whether they get electrification by 2020 to allow them to be withdrawn is another story, of course.

 

[northwichcat]

although apparently the Natex bid was for new trains instead of HST's and less subsidy!

The reason that replacing 170s with HSTs was commended by Transport Scotland is because they wanted proper Intercity stock. We don't know what NX proposed - maybe it was something similar to the 185s rather than something similar to IEP.

I guess using some HST's in the next Welsh franchise or what ever it is replaced with might be a possibility.

I think that's a good idea. The 175s are 2 and 3 car trains with no provision for lengthening them and they don't have corridor connections - which isn't ideal for doubled up trains on long distance services with a trolley service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we want to upgrade some lines to faster longer-distance trains then we'll have a fair few 170s, 185s, 222s etc in the next few years.

Next few years might be a bit optimistic for 185s with North TPE electrification possibly being moved in to CP6 because there's doubts over whether it can be delivered to the original timescale and budget.

Since their introduction 170s have a trend of being moved off long distance routes on to shorter routes. In their rolling stock RUS Network Rail made reference to the most cost-effective replacement rolling stock for routes which have a poor electrification business case being stock currently used on regional routes with 156s and 170s being the most suitable to cascade down to shorter routes. 156s for lines which need a high density seating layout e.g. Buxton and 170s for lines with less heavy commuter loads e.g. Hope Valley stoppers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason that replacing 170s with HSTs was commended by Transport Scotland is because they wanted proper Intercity stock. We don't know what NX proposed - maybe it was something similar to the 185s rather than something similar to IEP.

Are they actually committed to using the HSTs? Or if the new Sleeper vehicles are a success, could they tag on a follow-on order for LHCS and DVTs and buy some 68s to haul them, if cheaper/better long-term?

Or even, as HSTs are LHCS, do a "bitty" replacement, i.e. replace the coaches but not the locos?

Neil

 

[cjmillsnun]

Are they actually committed to using the HSTs? Or if the new Sleeper vehicles are a success, could they tag on a follow-on order for LHCS and DVTs and buy some 68s to haul them, if cheaper/better long-term?

Or even, as HSTs are LHCS, do a "bitty" replacement, i.e. replace the coaches but not the locos?

Neil

Because the coaches don't have standard ETS, you would either need dual standard coaches that could work with HST PCs and standard ETS or scrap the PCs if the coaches were replaced.

I'm guessing that when ScotRail replace the HSTs, they'll be replaced with multiple units.

 

[Murph]

Because the coaches don't have standard ETS, you would either need dual standard coaches that could work with HST PCs and standard ETS or scrap the PCs if the coaches were replaced.

I'm guessing that when ScotRail replace the HSTs, they'll be replaced with multiple units.

ETS shouldn't really be a huge problem, as the HST ETS is just standard industrial 415VAC 3 phase. Converting between 1000VDC and 415VAC isn't a huge problem, there's even a M-G set in each non-HST mark 3 which does just that. So, they could build more 415VAC coaches, or just drop a converter into the van on the back of the power cars.

It shouldn't be a show stopper, just a cost to factor in when planning.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Are they actually committed to using the HSTs? Or if the new Sleeper vehicles are a success, could they tag on a follow-on order for LHCS and DVTs and buy some 68s to haul them, if cheaper/better long-term?

Or even, as HSTs are LHCS, do a "bitty" replacement, i.e. replace the coaches but not the locos?

Neil

The HSTs will soldier on until the lines to Aberdeen and Inverness have been electrified, at which point they will simply be replaced by whatever comparable regional stock (something like the 444s) that a manufacturer is offering.

Something to consider is that the line between Aberdeen and Inverness will see HSTs in use as well, yet Network Rail do not seem to believe it will be electrified by 2030. Given that there is not a great deal of diesel rolling stock that would be seen as an upgrade over a heavily refurbished HST on that route, it does suggest that electrification of the entire route may be performed. This would be even more likely if passenger numbers on the route continue to increase with the better rolling stock, decreased journey times and lower fares that Abellio are required to offer.

 

[cjmillsnun]

ETS shouldn't really be a huge problem, as the HST ETS is just standard industrial 415VAC 3 phase. Converting between 1000VDC and 415VAC isn't a huge problem, there's even a M-G set in each non-HST mark 3 which does just that. So, they could build more 415VAC coaches, or just drop a converter into the van on the back of the power cars.

It shouldn't be a show stopper, just a cost to factor in when planning.

And that's why Grand Central had massive problems with rewiring the ex LHCS stock to work with HST PCs then??:roll:

Also if that's the case, why don't FGW use HST PCs on their SLEPs?

Also is it standard industrial (50Hz) 415 AC or is it closer to that used on ships and planes? (400Hz)

 

[Northern_Light]

The HSTs will soldier on until the lines to Aberdeen and Inverness have been electrified, at which point they will simply be replaced by whatever comparable regional stock (something like the 444s) that a manufacturer is offering.

Something to consider is that the line between Aberdeen and Inverness will see HSTs in use as well, yet Network Rail do not seem to believe it will be electrified by 2030. Given that there is not a great deal of diesel rolling stock that would be seen as an upgrade over a heavily refurbished HST on that route, it does suggest that electrification of the entire route may be performed. This would be even more likely if passenger numbers on the route continue to increase with the better rolling stock, decreased journey times and lower fares that Abellio are required to offer.

As things stand at the moment, there are no plans whatsoever to electrify the line between Aberdeen and Inverness. Not too hard to see why.

Currently the line is being improved to (among other things) bring the journey time between the two cities to 2 hours. All well and good so far.

But when these enhancements are finally complete, Scotrail plan to run only 1tph between ABD and INV. As we're talking around 100 miles of track here, what value would there be in electrifying such a line with this level of service?

However, this is a problem for some far off day. And a good chance that this won't be an issue for Abellio!

 

[47802]

The HSTs will soldier on until the lines to Aberdeen and Inverness have been electrified, at which point they will simply be replaced by whatever comparable regional stock (something like the 444s) that a manufacturer is offering.

.

I imagine that replacements to HST's will need to be looked at the end of the new Scotrail franchise for those lines which are still not electrified and not likely to be anytime soon, I personally would have gone for new trains that Natex offered even if they were less intercity rather than continue to run clapped out HST's.

HST's are possibly OK as an intrim stopgap for the next 5 to 10 years after which they should head for the scrapper.

 

[najaB]

...rather than continue to run clapped out HST's.

The powercars have been re-engined in the not too distant past, and Abellio are (I believe) proposing a complete rebuild of the coaches. So they are old, but not what I'd describe as clapped out.

 

[47802]

The powercars have been re-engined in the not too distant past, and Abellio are (I believe) proposing a complete rebuild of the coaches. So they are old, but not what I'd describe as clapped out.

I wonder if those that actually have to maintain these trains on a daily basis agree with that? I'm not sure it will be exactly a complete rebuild either apart from whacking power doors on after all this being Abellio we are talking about.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

proposing a complete rebuild of the coaches. So they are old, but not what I'd describe as clapped out.

Something along the lines of what Chiltern done with their mk3s (inc power doors)?

 

[najaB]

Something along the lines of what Chiltern done with their mk3s (inc power doors)?

That's the impression they've given, though I don't know if any specific promises have been made one way or another.

 

[Techniquest]

I can't help but notice other people now suggesting use of the HSTs on ATW. Such an idea got heavy criticism when I suggested it some months ago on a different thread, but now Abelio are going for such an idea...

Capacity-busting HSTs on the Marches alone will help a lot during busy periods, as I'm sure anyone who've travelled on a 2-car 175 or 158 during a rugby weekend in Cardiff will concur with! Even just a 2+4 formation would be welcome, although 2+5 on the busier days would be better.

As for those going on about some of us basically getting used to the idea of HSTs being scrapped, yes we all need to get it into our heads it'll happen one day, but I'm at least glad I'm not alone in not looking forward to such a day coming in a few years' time. It feels like just as good a time to share this photo as any other right now:

43073, Skegness, 18th July 2009 by 43002, on Flickr

If I had a photo handy of a FGW HST, pre-modern lights, pre-MTU'ing and all that (mmm, memories...), I'd share that instead but the above photo of 43073 at Skegness on 18th July 2009 will do for now!

 

[47802]

Something along the lines of what Chiltern done with their mk3s (inc power doors)?

Well the Chiltern MK3's seem to be regarded as some kind of panacea, but from what ive seen the doors look like some kind of naff student project, the vestibule doors have been removed in favour of doors across the corridor connection, probably making it about as draughty as a 170 in winter, and the Chiltern MK3 still have the original out of the ark seating, in other words a clapped out old coach with power doors whoopee doo!

As for ATW well I suggested that might happen but that doesn't mean I am in favour of it personally.

Don't get me wrong the HST is great train but everything has its day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well the Chiltern MK3's seem to be regarded as some kind of panacea, but from what ive seen the doors look like some kind of student project, the vestibule doors have been removed [probably making it about as draughty as a 170 in winter, and the Chiltern MK3 still have the original out of the ark seating, in other words a clapped out old coach with power doors whoopee doo!

And they have (or some of them do) cheap, crap daylight white, dim and slightly flickery LED lighting - a very nasty job indeed. As poor as many London buses.

LED lighting is only worth doing if you buy the expensive fittings such as the Philips £8-a-go GU10s I have in my house. 200 quid for the lot, but they use 6W rather than 50W per bulb, and are indistinguishable from tungsten in terms of light quality.

Neil

 

[edwin_m]

I imagine that replacements to HST's will need to be looked at the end of the new Scotrail franchise for those lines which are still not electrified and not likely to be anytime soon, I personally would have gone for new trains that Natex offered even if they were less intercity rather than continue to run clapped out HST's.

HST's are possibly OK as an intrim stopgap for the next 5 to 10 years after which they should head for the scrapper.

I agree the HST is a relatively short term solution but if new intercity DMUs were built now they would quite likely have nothing to do in ten years time. Many of their English routes are now in the course of electrification and the Scots intend to do the same. For unelectrified intercity routes in the early 2020s there will be a choice of 185, 220, 221 or 222 units all with at least another decade of life in them. We may be looking for new build regional DMUs then (depending how the 15x classes bear up) but not intercity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree the HST is a relatively short term solution but if new intercity DMUs were built now they would quite likely have nothing to do in ten years time. Many of their English routes are now in the course of electrification and the Scots intend to do the same. For unelectrified intercity routes in the early 2020s there will be a choice of 185, 220, 221 or 222 units all with at least another decade of life in them. We may be looking for new build regional DMUs then (depending how the 15x classes bear up) but not intercity.

I think 185s will end up being derated and used for regional services as they have a regional style door layout. But I agree on the rest.

Neil

 

[Chris125]

They need corrosion prevention work and more regular checking than newer stock. Being LHCS they have a different (slower) acceleration profile to multiple units.

IIRC the shortened HSTs for Scotrail will actually have slightly better performance than the 170s, making them a viable alternative to short DMU formations on longer distance services.

Are they actually committed to using the HSTs? Or if the new Sleeper vehicles are a success, could they tag on a follow-on order for LHCS and DVTs and buy some 68s to haul them, if cheaper/better long-term?

If they thought new stock would be cheaper/better long term I'm sure they'd have put that in their bid, I can't see the 'success' of the sleeper stock changing the underlying economics I'm afraid.

Chris

 

[Skymonster]

RAIL saying EMT HSTs will not be modified to comply with Pasengers of Reduced Mobility standards, meaning they will have to be retired by the end of 2019... That strikes me as a bit close with respect to completion of MML electrification (uncomfortably close of electrification slips back) and presumably means someone needs to get on with working out what's going to replace them...

 

[TheWalrus]

I think with the national DMU shortage and many HSTs being released in the next few years, many could be used as 2+5 sets to increase capacity on peak-time services. Could they be used on Cardiff-Portsmouth/Taunton, Reading-Gatwick and possibly Liverpool-Norwich? One toilet could be removed from each carriage and convert the Guard's office and buffet car to seating capacity. This should bring the passenger capacity to nearly 500.

 

[47802]

RAIL saying EMT HSTs will not be modified to comply with Pasengers of Reduced Mobility standards, meaning they will have to be retired by the end of 2019... That strikes me as a bit close with respect to completion of MML electrification (uncomfortably close of electrification slips back) and presumably means someone needs to get on with working out what's going to replace them...

Indeed although electrification wouldn't have to be complete to eliminate the HSTs, if it gets to Nottingham that ought to be enough to allow remaining services to worked by Meridians, assuming of course the electric replacement is available.

 

[northwichcat]

I think with the national DMU shortage and many HSTs being released in the next few years, many could be used as 2+5 sets to increase capacity on peak-time services. Could they be used on Cardiff-Portsmouth/Taunton, Reading-Gatwick and possibly Liverpool-Norwich? One toilet could be removed from each carriage and convert the Guard's office and buffet car to seating capacity. This should bring the passenger capacity to nearly 500.

2+5 sets may prove an issue on Liverpool-Norwich. Currently the longest formation EMT which can be used without SDO is 5 car. Network Rail are apparently going to undertake work to allow 6 x 24m trains at stations between Liverpool and Nottingham. I'm not sure if they'll be able to allow for even longer trains at Liverpool South Parkway and while the 43s can be off the end of the platforms that's only if the signalling allows it.

 

[najaB]

2+5 sets may prove an issue on Liverpool-Norwich. Currently the longest formation EMT which can be used without SDO is 5 car.

Does conversion of the Mk 3 to power-door operation also allow for SDO?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does conversion of the Mk 3 to power-door operation also allow for SDO?

I don't know if Chiltern's do, but I can see no reason why not, particularly as fGW's regular slamdoor HSTs have it (if I recall rightly). And if it doesn't, I don't see why pseudo-SDO of opening one local door at smaller stations couldn't be used.

Neil

 

[455driver]

And that's why Grand Central had massive problems with rewiring the ex LHCS stock to work with HST PCs then??:roll:

Did they really?
What about the FGW ones then?

Also if that's the case, why don't FGW use HST PCs on their SLEPs?

because they dont have any spare PCs to do this, not very difficult to fathom is it!

Also is it standard industrial (50Hz) 415 AC or is it closer to that used on ships and planes? (400Hz)

Standard 415VAC 50HZ as far as I know.