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A solution to the biggest problem Beeching caused?

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Tetchytyke

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Unless you have through ticketing, people won't trust bus links. I've lost £120 on advance tickets before when a bus hasn't turned up when it was supposed to. That was a mistake I only made the once, ever since then I've driven or booked a cab to the station.

With a much bigger push towards Advance tickets, thanks to rip-off walk-up fares, people simply aren't going to take the risk.

Bus links can work where it's only a relatively short distance from the town to the station, e.g. St Andrews to Leuchars, Alnwick to Alnmouth or Bodmin to Bodmin Parkway, and where the towns are relatively big. But in more rural areas people aren't going to drive or get a lift to town and then use a shuttle bus to get to the station; they're going to drive or get a lift all the way to the train station. And cross-country shuttles like the 99 aren't going to ever generate huge numbers of through passengers- if you're going from Liverpool to Luton, for instance, you wouldn't go to Milton Keynes and swap for a bus, you'd travel via Leicester and stick with the trains.
 
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EbbwJunction1

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What is annoying in South East Wales is that the Ebbw Vale Parkway to Cardiff line has now no dedicated connection with Newport via Rogerstone.

Even more annoying, it also (at the moment) doesn't have a dedicated connection with Ebbw Vale at the top end, either! It's very busy, but I guess that most of the people who travel all the way up the valley get to EVP by car, which is reducing the point of it all a bit, I think.

Hopefully, when the line is extended to EV town centre, it will improve. The station will be behind "The Works" development and connected to the town centre by a chair lift.

I guess that there's little or no chance of the dedicated connection to Newport being reinstated, though - even though it's still advertised on Newport station!
 

edwin_m

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Bus links can work where it's only a relatively short distance from the town to the station, e.g. St Andrews to Leuchars, Alnwick to Alnmouth or Bodmin to Bodmin Parkway, and where the towns are relatively big. But in more rural areas people aren't going to drive or get a lift to town and then use a shuttle bus to get to the station; they're going to drive or get a lift all the way to the train station. And cross-country shuttles like the 99 aren't going to ever generate huge numbers of through passengers- if you're going from Liverpool to Luton, for instance, you wouldn't go to Milton Keynes and swap for a bus, you'd travel via Leicester and stick with the trains.

The other important factor is traffic congestion. On routes where it is a significant problem the bus might not be reliable enough to connect with the train.
 

EbbwJunction1

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But it did - and nobody used it - so it closed.

Yes, but one reason was that the bus connection wasn't very well advertised, so people didn't know about it.

Thats a bit unfair, the whole Ebbw Vale line closed, quite busy now though.

That was the original line; which closed to passengers in 1962 and to freight in 2002. The current line opened in 2008, and it's this one that I'm talking about.
 

najaB

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The other important factor is traffic congestion. On routes where it is a significant problem the bus might not be reliable enough to connect with the train.
They'd be just as stuck in their car though...
 

leytongabriel

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Bald Rick is quite right - lots of SNCF / TER bus services in France departing from rail station forecourts. Not only on abandoned lines but providing the stopping services on routes that are still running. Makes the timetables look quite good on first glance!
But having spent some years in France, people in the areas with these services tend to say , 'Oh no station closed some time ago, there are no services now.' You'd have to be a local public transport user to be in the know. It's a very highly subsidised system, and though these buses get people to work in the nearest big town and to the market once a week they often don't provide decent connections to longer distance trains so don't function in the way a branch line in a national network should.
 

Bald Rick

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Yes, but one reason was that the bus connection wasn't very well advertised, so people didn't know about it.

It was advertised sufficiently that I knew about it from the comfort of the Home Counties.

In my one and only trip up to Ebbw vale a couple of years after the reopening on what you would think was an evening peak service (about 1745?), no one boarded at Rogerstone (the bus was there, empty), and the train itself had more than 30% of the seats empty leaving Cardiff.

One assumes it is busier now!
 

edwin_m

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They'd be just as stuck in their car though...

Not necessarily. The bus has to get to the station, which may be in a congested area, and serve all the bus stops on the way. In a car you can take a more direct route to destination which avoids congested areas in the first place, and if you encounter a traffic jam you can change your route.
 

317666

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A not insignificant proportion of rural 'rail' services in France are run along similar lines, usually from the old station (often with rusty rails out back).

The Bastogne branch in Belgium has had trains replaced by buses since 1993, but the old ticket office at Bastogne-Sud remained open until 2004, so a similar principle I suppose!
 

aylesbury

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When the Great Central closed north of Aylesbury in the 1960s, a bus service was provided to Bicester.

Good idea but hardly anyone used it, for a time it stopped running until revived as a shortened route that does have some peak time patronage.

'Bustistution' on a railway line with low passenger numbers is not a solution. An answer could be community buses operated by voluntary organisations; this way the subsidy is not to high.
 
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21C101

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Yrs, but IIRC it was extermely indirect, taking something like 30 mins when a direct journey could be done in 10 ??

Seems like it was almost designed to fail.

The sensible thing to do would be run the trains to Newport, reverse and then onto Cardiff, with the recent resignalling on the SWML I would have thought this could be easily achieved on this four track stretch of line.
 

fandroid

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I had heard about the Leuchars-St Andrews bus service, and wondered how anyone could suggest reopening the branch line when a superior frequency is easily attained using buses.

I suspect that its success depends a great deal on the University. Generally, universities strongly discourage their students from bringing cars with them, due to lack of parking space, and also are quite upfront in sponsoring public transport links to help their students get about. They are not afraid to borrow transport ideas from abroad, and often seem to know how to provide information and facilities to make them work best for the passengers (unlike our cloddy bus operators). I have even spotted Mercedes articulated buses with Leicester University badges on them! (Boris take note).
 

61653 HTAFC

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A very interesting thread...

A few years back, First in West Yorkshire unveiled the 'Holmfirth Connection' Which involved diverting several of their Holmfirth to Huddersfield routes to serve Huddersfield station, with through-ticketing - restoring in part a link which was ended by the wicked doctor. Several vehicles were given branding promoting the link, however these were step-entrance Olympians, so hardly the pride of the fleet!

I'm not sure how popular the through-ticketing was, but I can only assume it wasn't a runaway success as about 18 months ago the buses stopped serving the railway station. For a bus link to be a success it really needs a lot of work and investment. For how to do it right, see St. Andrews and Minehead. For how to get it wrong see practically every other attempt!
 

quarella

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Not necessarily. The bus has to get to the station, which may be in a congested area, and serve all the bus stops on the way. In a car you can take a more direct route to destination which avoids congested areas in the first place, and if you encounter a traffic jam you can change your route.

Or there may be bus priority measures such as bus only lanes or bus activated traffic lights enabling a free passage.

Throughout this thread there have been several postings about potential but failures that may occur, a suggestion of a higher frequency bus service. What bus should people go for. The one that gets in 25 minutes before the train or ten minutes before?

Trains are subject to disruption too and while a vehicle failure or traffic light failure will cause delays the road network in the area will continue to move while the equivalent failures on the rail network to a unit or signalling can bring things to a standstill for some time.

How much interchange time should there be? Too long and people will use alternative means. Should there be additional time to allow for train delays? How long should that be? Bear in mind the knock on effect of delaying this bus to other passengers on the route and possibly the next working which may cause people travelling to the station to miss their train connection.
 

najaB

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My understanding of the proposal is that the bus service would be limited (or non) stop between the rail station and the 'virtual' station. So if the train was delayed the bus would wait until it arrived as there wouldn't be many non-rail passengers to be inconvenienced.
 

RT4038

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It is quite interesting that by 2014 there are relatively few people who remember the rail replacement services put on at the time of the Beeching cuts, and judge them by the completely different circumstances and standards of today!

Many of the trains, on some lines virtually all, carried very small numbers of passengers; certainly not enough to make a replacement bus operation viable.
Many of the lines which were closed already had bus services operating in the area, not necessarily parallel, but competing between at least some of the station pairs. In most cases these services were operated by companies in common ultimate ownership (i.e the Government) but were managed totally independently from the railways and expected to make their financial way in the world. These bus services were often the main reason for the lack of local custom on the branch lines, particularly if the junction station was in an obscure place, such as Gwinear Road, Brent or Sidmouth Junction, as passengers would rather ride (an often) more frequent and direct through bus than make a change to an possibly unpunctual long distance train.

In 1964-6 (the main years of the Beeching cuts), the bus companies were losing (particularly off peak) passengers to private cars and changing social circumstances at an alarming rate, and often viewed railway replacement services as a threat, partly through possible abstraction of passengers from their existing services, and partly due to the staff shortage issues that plagued the industry at the time. Changing the structure of the services to minimise the costs of the rail replacement services was not even considered - this was a risk and would take an age to get through the Traffic Commissioner - after all the Railway would pay a subsidy for the first two years, during which time the bus company could attempt to cover any worthwhile flows by changing their existing services or even retaining the service commercially in a few cases. Connecting long distance rail passengers would be few and subject to railway timetable changes, punctuality problems, luggage etc so were not practical on an ordinary service bus anyway.

When the TUCC examined the railway closure, the surrounding bus services were considered and the Railways wanted to minimise their subsidy risk (which Government had limited to two years anyway) and the bus companies wanted to minimise disturbance to their existing services (and their delicate financial situation). So replacement services were only run where there was no existing adequate service (adequate being de facto 'was there a service between A and B', rather than specifically for connecting to the rest of the rail network) Hence many replacement services ended up running between closed stations and junctions that no one wanted to go to, replacing trains that no one was riding on anyway. Of course, on some lines [Bodmin Rd-Bodmin-Wadebridge-Padstow springs to mind] the rail replacement service continued long after the subsidy disappeared, but most did not.
Some lines merely got token extensions of existing bus journeys from Bus Station to Rail Station, sometimes connecting with trains at inception, but the rail timetable was unstable, the railways often did not inform bus companies of timetable changes until too late, and anyway the vast majority of passengers were travelling locally and the buses would run at times suitable for them, rather than train connections.
On some lines (Cambridge- Bedford for instance) the replacement service served at (or near) each of the stations [many of which must have produced few passengers for the train] along country roads and took a lot longer for end to end traffic than the existing bus service via a completely different route.

Of course it would be possible to operate the type of services referred to by the OP, but this implies an increase in transport subsidy, unless it is used to replace existing branch lines at a cheaper cost. Now that's controversial.......
 

Mark62

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Let's not forget that Dr Beeching did not close down a single line. He made recommendations and then it was down to the transport minister. Barbara castle was responsible for so many unnecessary closures and her impartiality must be called into question. One of her biggest decisions was the close woodhead. I researched that route and decision whilst at university and I found some very disquieting evidence that strongly suggested that her final closure decision was tainted and influenced by external factors and agencies.
Beeching actually made made significant recommendations that actually improved operating practices etc. In the ultimate analysis he will to down in history as the person who destroyed our railways, rather than the labour and conservative governments. And British rail we equally culpable in many way with their dirty tricks that paved the way for line closures. Of course they were only doing what their paymasters(the government) told them to do.
I would suggest that the 1960s was the most corrupt period in our political history when it comes to transport policy.
 

infobleep

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Guildford to Cranleigh had a rail replacement bus service until 1985 I believe. There is commercial bus services running between the two places. The last one towards Cranleigh is around 11pm. Unfortunately the last one from Cranleigh is only around 10.30. There is a small arts/live music theatre there, the Cranleigh Arts Centre. As someone who can't drive, I could never go to any concerts there as I can't get home.

Of course one could never run a bus for the odd person supporting a small live music venue who doesn't use a car.
 

Busaholic

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Guildford to Cranleigh had a rail replacement bus service until 1985 I believe. There is commercial bus services running between the two places. The last one towards Cranleigh is around 11pm. Unfortunately the last one from Cranleigh is only around 10.30. There is a small arts/live music theatre there, the Cranleigh Arts Centre. As someone who can't drive, I could never go to any concerts there as I can't get home.

Of course one could never run a bus for the odd person supporting a small live music venue who doesn't use a car.

Assuming you wouldn't need a service much after 10.30 from Cranleigh, have you tried contacting the bus company to see if there's anything they'd be prepared to do? You won't be the only person in this situation and it could be there is a no-cost solution, particularly if late evening journeys are commercial too: if they are subsidised, try the council as well.
 

infobleep

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Cheers. I will do that. Not something I considered. I just accepted the status quo as I have lot of other things on in my life.
 

21C101

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It is quite interesting that by 2014 there are relatively few people who remember the rail replacement services put on at the time of the Beeching cuts, and judge them by the completely different circumstances and standards of today!

Many of the trains, on some lines virtually all, carried very small numbers of passengers; certainly not enough to make a replacement bus operation viable.
Many of the lines which were closed already had bus services operating in the area, not necessarily parallel, but competing between at least some of the station pairs. In most cases these services were operated by companies in common ultimate ownership (i.e the Government) but were managed totally independently from the railways and expected to make their financial way in the world. These bus services were often the main reason for the lack of local custom on the branch lines, particularly if the junction station was in an obscure place, such as Gwinear Road, Brent or Sidmouth Junction, as passengers would rather ride (an often) more frequent and direct through bus than make a change to an possibly unpunctual long distance train.

In 1964-6 (the main years of the Beeching cuts), the bus companies were losing (particularly off peak) passengers to private cars and changing social circumstances at an alarming rate, and often viewed railway replacement services as a threat, partly through possible abstraction of passengers from their existing services, and partly due to the staff shortage issues that plagued the industry at the time. Changing the structure of the services to minimise the costs of the rail replacement services was not even considered - this was a risk and would take an age to get through the Traffic Commissioner - after all the Railway would pay a subsidy for the first two years, during which time the bus company could attempt to cover any worthwhile flows by changing their existing services or even retaining the service commercially in a few cases. Connecting long distance rail passengers would be few and subject to railway timetable changes, punctuality problems, luggage etc so were not practical on an ordinary service bus anyway.

When the TUCC examined the railway closure, the surrounding bus services were considered and the Railways wanted to minimise their subsidy risk (which Government had limited to two years anyway) and the bus companies wanted to minimise disturbance to their existing services (and their delicate financial situation). So replacement services were only run where there was no existing adequate service (adequate being de facto 'was there a service between A and B', rather than specifically for connecting to the rest of the rail network) Hence many replacement services ended up running between closed stations and junctions that no one wanted to go to, replacing trains that no one was riding on anyway. Of course, on some lines [Bodmin Rd-Bodmin-Wadebridge-Padstow springs to mind] the rail replacement service continued long after the subsidy disappeared, but most did not.
Some lines merely got token extensions of existing bus journeys from Bus Station to Rail Station, sometimes connecting with trains at inception, but the rail timetable was unstable, the railways often did not inform bus companies of timetable changes until too late, and anyway the vast majority of passengers were travelling locally and the buses would run at times suitable for them, rather than train connections.
On some lines (Cambridge- Bedford for instance) the replacement service served at (or near) each of the stations [many of which must have produced few passengers for the train] along country roads and took a lot longer for end to end traffic than the existing bus service via a completely different route.

Of course it would be possible to operate the type of services referred to by the OP, but this implies an increase in transport subsidy, unless it is used to replace existing branch lines at a cheaper cost. Now that's controversial.......

A most interesting post.

To make clear (re someone elses post) I was proposing (using the Sidmouth branch) that the enhanced service replaced the existing 52B to Honiton, there would be no point running a bus to Sidmouth Junction (now Feniton), although it does appear that the railway replacement bus still runs (service 382 from Sidmouth to Feniton with stops at Sidmouth old station and Tipton St Johns old station) http://www.hatchgreencoaches.co.uk/somerset1bus-services/sidmouth_otterystmary-whimple.html

It is fair to say that Devon have done a lot to improve connections in recent years. Hourly trains at Yeovil Junction, Axminster, Honiton and Barnstaple station forecourts connect with hourly or more frequent buses to Yeovil, Bridport, Lyme Regis, Seaton, Sidmouth, Torrington, Bideford, Braunton and Ilfracombe which in many cases are faster (and in most cases far more frequent) than the old branches. Its just a very well kept secret as the railway timetables don't show the connection and that you cannot in most if not all cases buy a seamless through ticket. With ever more cuts to bus service subsidies, integration such as this might provide more passengers.
 
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londiscape

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Let's not forget that Dr Beeching did not close down a single line. He made recommendations and then it was down to the transport minister. Barbara castle was responsible for so many unnecessary closures and her impartiality must be called into question. One of her biggest decisions was the close woodhead. I researched that route and decision whilst at university and I found some very disquieting evidence that strongly suggested that her final closure decision was tainted and influenced by external factors and agencies.
Beeching actually made made significant recommendations that actually improved operating practices etc. In the ultimate analysis he will to down in history as the person who destroyed our railways, rather than the labour and conservative governments. And British rail we equally culpable in many way with their dirty tricks that paved the way for line closures. Of course they were only doing what their paymasters(the government) told them to do.
I would suggest that the 1960s was the most corrupt period in our political history when it comes to transport policy.

And let us not forget that crook Ernest Marples, who as contemporary Minister for Transport appointed Beeching in the first instance and just so happened to have a majority interest in one of the largest road construction companies of the time.

Not difficult to deduce what his agenda might have been. Thus Beeching has become a convenient historical scapegoat.
 

RT4038

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Guildford to Cranleigh had a rail replacement bus service until 1985 I believe. There is commercial bus services running between the two places. The last one towards Cranleigh is around 11pm. Unfortunately the last one from Cranleigh is only around 10.30. There is a small arts/live music theatre there, the Cranleigh Arts Centre. As someone who can't drive, I could never go to any concerts there as I can't get home.

Of course one could never run a bus for the odd person supporting a small live music venue who doesn't use a car.

And looking at a railway timetable from shortly before closure, the last train from Cranleigh to Guildford was at 7.52pm, so this has little to do with Rail Replacement buses
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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And let us not forget that crook Ernest Marples, who as contemporary Minister for Transport appointed Beeching in the first instance and just so happened to have a majority interest in one of the largest road construction companies of the time.

Not difficult to deduce what his agenda might have been. Thus Beeching has become a convenient historical scapegoat.

It is times like this, when reading some of the postings, that I am tempted to look for my dvd copy of "The Titfield Thunderbolt"
 

edwin_m

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For many years in the 80s the national rail timetable showed several bus links from the Salisbury-Exeter line, including the last entry in the station index (Zeals?).
 

6Gman

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And let us not forget that crook Ernest Marples, who as contemporary Minister for Transport appointed Beeching in the first instance and just so happened to have a majority interest in one of the largest road construction companies of the time.

Not difficult to deduce what his agenda might have been. Thus Beeching has become a convenient historical scapegoat.

It's a nice conspiracy theory but since the Marples business interests were largely around London (where the Beeching cuts had little impact) it's scarcely convincing.
 

21C101

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It's a nice conspiracy theory but since the Marples business interests were largely around London (where the Beeching cuts had little impact) it's scarcely convincing.

I think the two week long Aslef Strike in 1955 which brought the network (and the country) to a halt, because freight traffic was paralysed, had more effect on the Macmillan government than Marples business interests.

They shortly afterwards started the motorway network to make sure the rail unions could never ever hold the economy to ransom like that again. Much freight traffic disappeared onto the roads immediately after the 1955 strike (e.g. fish traffic), never to return, and it was the loss of the freight revenue as the government facilitated a switch to roads (which had a small business non unionised freight industry) that did for the rural rail network, which was built principally for freight, rural passenger services were always a marginal sideshow.

The trend of freight going to roads had obviously already started but the ASLEF strike of 1955 was the best present the road haulage industry could ever have wished for and rail freight never really recovered.

The national strike of 1989 resulted in the government breaking up the train operation into a couple of dozen franchises with the intention of making another national strike virtually impossible.
 
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