FGW Buy before you board policy

[Flamingo]

No, it isn't. You can't pay cash, or any other form of payment, for that matter, on board a Tube train, either.

FWIW, though, there is no "absolute" payment required for any product or service where the payment occurs before the service is delivered, i.e. there is no debt. So fGW could quite legitimately, provided their franchise agreement does not preclude it (which it probably does), cease accepting cash entirely. I can see this as a likely scenario within 10 years or so - cash will simply die out.

Neil
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The RPI has absolutely no right whatsoever to do that if the card is not offered in payment. And in any case, it will *not* tell them that, it will tell them whether the payment would be authorised or not. That is not the same thing at all - it is completely unreasonable for a TOC to expect someone to incur unauthorised overdraft fees in order to buy a ticket by card when they are, for example, one of the typical older people who draw out their entire wage/pension in cash when it is deposited.

I think this needs testing in Court, TBH.

Neil
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By the next visit, of course, fees over and above the ticket price have been incurred. It is completely unreasonable for the TOC to insist on that if cash would have been accepted absent the card.

Neil

So it is unreasonable for the TOC to expect a passenger to pay for their journey? :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it is unreasonable for the TOC to expect a passenger to pay for their journey? :roll:

It is unreasonable for the TOC to expect a passenger to pay for their journey *by a means of payment they did not intend to use when they set out on the journey*, yes. Edit: Or rather, if the TOC wished to do that, it is unreasonable that they do not make this very clear before the passenger boards the train and thus incurs a debt, thus giving the passenger the option not to travel and therefore not to incur the debt.

If the railway accepts cash, cash should be accepted by those wishing to pay it for travel. If the railway wishes not to accept cash, it should cease accepting it entirely, not have some sort of silly "sometimes we do, sometimes we don't" policy.

The solution to this is TVMs accepting cash as well as card, and more CCTV covering them, also that they can issue ALL walk-up tickets including rovers/rangers, but TOCs don't like this as it costs, well, money to maintain the coin mechanisms and the occasional theft, and it's a bit awkward to programme in odd ticket types. But that would ensure that *nobody* had an excuse for not purchasing before boarding.

The other option is to reintroduce PERTIS machines.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

(If anyone's looking for a discussion about buses that appeared on here briefly, it can be found here: The non-acceptance of cash on buses.)

So it is unreasonable for the TOC to expect a passenger to pay for their journey? :roll:

The TOC can expect a passenger to offer payment by an accepted payment method.

It is not unreasonable for the TOC to expect a passenger to pay, but it is unreasonable for the TOC to insist that a particular payment method (card) is used, when the passenger is intending, willing and able, to pay with another, valid and accepted payment method (cash).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TOC can expect a passenger to offer payment by an accepted payment method.

It is not unreasonable for the TOC to expect a passenger to pay, but it is unreasonable for the TOC to insist that a particular payment method (card) is used, when the passenger is intending, willing and able, to pay with another, valid and accepted payment method (cash).

Exactly.

It's time someone tested this in court and as such put it to bed once and for all.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

Condition 3 is an issue very close to my heart. As, indeed, are poor quality TVMs installed on the cheap which are difficult to use and don't offer a very wide range of fares. It would be interesting to note if guards and ticket office staff are willing and able to process part exchanges in a helpful and timely manner though. I point out that in certain parts of the country one experiences open hostility for following the NRCoC.

The cash v card issue is wibble and has been done to death with I think a satisfactory conclusion that they are never going to be able to succeed with a prosecution if you offered to pay cash.

 

[Flamingo]

The law is that the passenger should purchase a ticket at their first opportunity. That is the one thing that has been established by the Railway Bylaws and case law relating to that.

If a passenger walks past an opportunity to buy, they will have to demonstrate that they did not have a means of payment accepted by that opportunity, but did have other means to pay, as that is the defence they are going to rely on if taken to court.

IMHO This would mean they would have to show the RPI or whoever that they had cash on them, and if necessary, produce their bank statements to show an empty bank account and an absence of card transactions in the time period if the card was not in their possession. Saying "I didn't want to use the TVM as I don't like them for whatever reason" is not an argument, it's an excuse, unless the same passenger can show they don't use cards at all.

It would be interesting to see this one go to court, and I have no idea who would win - but I'm pretty sure the TOC would not lose.

 

[yorkie]

If a passenger walks past an opportunity to buy, they will have to demonstrate that they did not have a means of payment accepted by that opportunity, but did have other means to pay, as that is the defence they are going to rely on if taken to court.

I disagree; providing a passenger is paying by a means that wasn't previously accepted, the first opportunity is when their payment method is accepted.

IMHO This would mean they would have to show the RPI or whoever that they had cash on them

I agree; if a passenger says the reason they didn't pay is because are paying by cash, they need to produce the cash!

and if necessary, their bank statements to show an empty bank account and an absence of card transactions in the time period if the card was not in their possession.

A person who has experience working as an RPI has confirmed to me this is not within their remit!

It would be interesting to see this one go to court, and I have no idea who would win - but I'm pretty sure the TOC would not lose.

Providing the passenger didn't do anything daft, didn't attempt to represent themselves in court, and providing appropriate evidence was given by the defence, I'd find it difficult to see the TOC win.

TOCs can win almost any case if the passenger attempts to represent themselves in court and doesn't really know what arguments to use! Most prosecutions are not defended against!

 

[PermitToTravel]

and if necessary, produce their bank statements to show an empty bank account and an absence of card transactions in the time period if the card was not in their possession.

A person who has experience working as an RPI has confirmed to me this is not within their remit!

Flamingo clearly meant showing these to a court, not an RPI.

 

[Flamingo]

If their defence to not using a card is that the account is not in credit, they may have to demonstrate this to the court, if not to the RPI at a station.

Fahad bet me to it!
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The bottom line is, that in my experience, and I do work a lot of stations that have TVM's only out of hours, many more passengers are "Pay when challenged" (or "Pay when woken up") than "The ticket machine was broken". I have NEVER been told by a passenger that the TVM would not accept their cash as a reason for them not having a ticket, and the ones who said it wouldn't accept their card invariably had the card declined when I rang the bank ("They usually just swipe it, mate"), and didn't have cash for the journey. Some of the UFN's I have issued to these have resulted in court cases.

I don't think that claiming that the passenger can excuse their lack of a ticket by saying their preferred payment method isn't accepted at their local station is a good precedent to set, and I could see any TOC's fighting hard to prevent it happening.

 

[yorkie]

Those problems are unrelated in my opinion.

I don't think it's right that a Train Company attempts to 'require' people to use cards; cash is a payment method that the TOC is required to accept and is advertised to passengers as a valid payment method.

Indeed it sounds like if people paid in cash it would make your life easier as there is then no need to worry about balances and things apparently not working.

I don't see how the problem of people with no intention of paying, who pretend to attempt to pay by handing you a card with insufficient funds has anything to do with people who do intend to pay by cash and have the cash in hand and are happy to give you that cash.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm happy to see those people. However, I always say "You really need to buy before you board". Not one of them ever says "The machine won't take cash", and putting this forward as an acceptable excuse if the passenger has the means to use a TVM is just, in my opinion, giving yet another excuse for people to avoid paying for their journey.

In my experience, there are many times more people who won't buy a ticket than who can't buy a ticket. I don't like to see this forum making excuses for them.

Anyway, as regards requiring people to use cards, there are numerous other threads bemoaning TOC's NOT accepting cards, and posters saying it is unreasonable to expect people to carry cash.

 

[yorkie]

If the TOC thinks that having card-only machines is "giving yet another excuse for people to avoid paying for their journey" then surely the TOC needs to ensure that the machines accept cards and cash!

 

[Starmill]

These issues are likely to become more common as ticket offices close or have their hours shortened. One solution would be more flexible ticket machines and an increase in the range of payment methods accepted. Getting the basics of cash and card payments and tickets from another station, plus rangers and rovers are essential and so lacking.. Then we can move onto things like processing warrants at TVMs...

 

[Flamingo]

If the TOC thinks that having card-only machines is "giving yet another excuse for people to avoid paying for their journey" then surely the TOC needs to ensure that the machines accept cards and cash!

I have no idea what the TOC's think, I'm just giving my opinion. To clarify, I think that it is some posters on this forum that are "giving yet another excuse for people to avoid paying for their journey". This may not be the intention, but it is the outcome.

 

[Starmill]

In my experience, there are many times more people who won't buy a ticket than who can't buy a ticket. I don't like to see this forum making excuses for them.

This is probably the case. But it's also worth noting that almost none of the passengers who will take what travel they can and go to great lengths to pay nothing at all for it are on here. Nor are they the people whom most of us have in mind when constructing these arguments.

It remains the case, I believe, that the Train Companies are making this problem very much for themselves by failing to invest sufficiently in ticket buying facilities. This problem exists very very little in Merseyside. If you're travelling there with Merseyrail and you don't have a ticket, you get a PF, end of.

 

[Clip]

These issues are likely to become more common as ticket offices close or have their hours shortened. One solution would be more flexible ticket machines and an increase in the range of payment methods accepted. Getting the basics of cash and card payments and tickets from another station, plus rangers and rovers are essential and so lacking.. Then we can move onto things like processing warrants at TVMs...

But having machines that take cash at stations that are totally unstaffed is a nightmare because they will get vandalised and robbed. That's a fact and would lead to the TVMs being out of service for so much longer so it would inconvenience the passenger even more which would have people bleating on here about not having working ones when it can take a couple of weeks to get them fixed.

We and our suppliers just don't have spare ones knocking around you know.


The whole warrant design would have to be changed and probably a barcode reader on the machine and warrant. And given how the little urchins like to scratch their names in everything then this would render the reader useless which would be more of an inconvenience to the passenger and costs to the TOC so that would get people bleating on here too.


Lets face it we all want everything to do everything but in the real world its a little bit different.

 

[yorkie]

I have no idea what the TOC's think, I'm just giving my opinion. To clarify, I think that it is some posters on this forum that are "giving yet another excuse for people to avoid paying for their journey". This may not be the intention, but it is the outcome.

If that is the outcome, it is due to a TOCs decision to install TVMs that do not accept the full range of payment methods and/or sell the full range of fares, and in some cases additionally the decision to close ticket offices or reduce opening hours.

 

[Starmill]

But having machines that take cash at stations that are totally unstaffed is a nightmare because they will get vandalised and robbed. That's a fact and would lead to the TVMs being out of service for so much longer so it would inconvenience the passenger even more which would have people bleating on here about not having working ones when it can take a couple of weeks to get them fixed.

We and our suppliers just don't have spare ones knocking around you know.


The whole warrant design would have to be changed and probably a barcode reader on the machine and warrant. And given how the little urchins like to scratch their names in everything then this would render the reader useless which would be more of an inconvenience to the passenger and costs to the TOC so that would get people bleating on here too.


Lets face it we all want everything to do everything but in the real world its a little bit different.

With respect, exactly 0 of these things are the problem of the passengers potentially up for prosecution as a result.

Nonetheless, there are two simple solutions:

1. Staff the station
2. Offer a full range of tickets onboard from that station

 

[Flamingo]

I had a new one this evening - somebody had purchased a ticket for a short journey in South Wales via "The Trainline" and when they went to collect the ticket there was no TVM at the station, apparently. They were even less impressed when I told them they had paid 0.75p commission for a ticket they could have bought on-board for less than £5, and that in theory, I should now be selling them another ticket and making them claim a refund from The Trainline. I looked at the e-mail, gave them advice, and went on my way.
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If that is the outcome, it is due to a TOCs decision to install TVMs that do not accept the full range of payment methods and/or sell the full range of fares, and in some cases additionally the decision to close ticket offices or reduce opening hours.

So, how come I sell thousands of pounds worth of tickets every month to people travelling from manned stations with open ticket offices? (And I'm not talking excesses or upgrades, but whole new tickets). A significant number of people won't buy a ticket unless you make them, and giving them excuses like "I wanted to pay cash / postal order / little plastic token" when they have a few plastic cards on them that they could have used is only giving them a "get out of jail free" card.

 

[PermitToTravel]

There appear to be many posters on this website, typically not rail staff, who post almost as though their relationship with rail staff is adversarial, due to bad experiences with idiotic members of rail staff. The idiotic members of rail staff in question tend not to engage in these debates.

There appear to be many posters on this website, typically rail staff, who post almost as though their relationship with passengers is adversarial, due to bad experiences with criminal passengers. The criminal passengers in question tend not to engage in these debates.

 

[Flamingo]

There appear to be many posters on this website, typically not rail staff, who post almost as though their relationship with rail staff is adversarial, due to bad experiences with idiotic members of rail staff. The idiotic members of rail staff in question tend not to engage in these debates.

No, the criminal passengers in question turn up here looking for excuses to get them out of trouble when caught, and always have a great story about how they forgot where they got on because of their dying grandmother, and how it was the first time they ever did this, and how it will ruin their life and anyway the nasty man was so rude to them they want him/her fired.

Why give them another excuse they can use?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I meant to say that they're not posting in this type of thread.

If TOCs have a problem with scrotes using "I wanted to pay cash" as an excuse when they didn't want to pay, there are many available solutions. Example solutions that have worked to remove this excuse include:

• Accept cash at TVMs, a la Merseyrail or FGW in D&C
• Don't accept cash at all, a la London Buses

 

[yorkie]

So, how come I sell thousands of pounds worth of tickets every month to people travelling from manned stations with open ticket offices? (And I'm not talking excesses or upgrades, but whole new tickets). A significant number of people won't buy a ticket unless you make them, and giving them excuses like "I wanted to pay cash / postal order / little plastic token" when they have a few plastic cards on them that they could have used is only giving them a "get out of jail free" card.

If the origin station is manned with an open ticket office, then how can they use the lack of cash facility at a TVM to say "I wanted to pay by cash" as a 'get out of jail free' card? :-?

I don't think that the matter in question (Rich McLean's friend wanting to pay by cash, and in fact being entitled to do so) has anything to do with people who you describe in your post above.

 

[Flamingo]

I was making the point that a significant number of people won't buy when the full range of tickets are available. They certainly won't use a TVM unless they think they will suffer a penalty if they don't.

 

[PermitToTravel]

At present, they won't suffer a penalty if they don't because they could say that they intended to pay with cash and this will work to obviate the risk of being prosecuted or at all penalised - note that Rich McLean's friend was only asked to pay his fare.

If they start taking cash at stations, it becomes as simple as starmill said: no ticket -> PF/prosecution.
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Sorry, it was johntea ([clicky], [clicky]), not Rich McLean's friend - just realised that I'm confusing my threads here.

 

[island]

I thought this whole topic had died down

The summary of the matter is that it is ambiguous. We can go on for hours (and indeed we have done so) about what TOCs should, should not, might, etc. do but at the end of the day, it is ambiguous. The core question of "does a passenger who has with him a method of payment which would have been accepted to buy a ticket may choose not to use that because he wishes to use some other method, which is accepted by the railway in general but not by the ticketing facilities at the station where he starts his journey, commit a criminal offence by joining a train at that station without a ticket?" has not been tested in a court. A court may agree with the argument that such a passenger does not need to purchase a ticket, or it may not. But until a precedent has been established, it is irresponsible of us to calmly advise members of the public that they do not need to purchase a ticket, when this advice could lead them to a criminal conviction.

I will not respond individually to posts made during the discussion as we have already had a long and abortive thread on this recently, but I would comment on this:

By the next visit, of course, fees over and above the ticket price have been incurred. It is completely unreasonable for the TOC to insist on that if cash would have been accepted absent the card.

Neil

Aside from the fact that your post replied to someone discussing an authorized overdraft, debit card payments take a couple of days to settle so there is time enough for the passenger to get to the bank.

 

[Clip]

With respect, exactly 0 of these things are the problem of the passengers potentially up for prosecution as a result.

Maybe not but my views on whether you should use a card with a card only TVM have been aired before and wont change even if yorkie says he has had confirmation of this for someone at ATOc but will not reveal the source or certified quote, so we'll have to take that as it comes. Remember not having money on your card is different from not wanting to use your card. Some of you seem to not realise this.

Nonetheless, there are two simple solutions:

1. Staff the station
2. Offer a full range of tickets onboard from that station

Hey this is your best idea on here and I fully agree with you, however lets break it down for you :-

1 - There are 2500 rail stations in Great Britain. And to staff them all when open would cost a tremendous amount of money in not only the staff themselves but also the relief to cover breaks and changeover of shifts.

2 - If you say sell a full range of tickets on board from every station then why have stations staffed anyway? Not only that but that would mean that every service every day would have to have a commercial guard on it. Thats thousands which isnt a problem at all as would bring the unemployment figures down so good for the country.


However. All this costs. And as an average across the board of say £15k per year per person you are pushing staffing costs through the roof so, bearing in mind you are someone who wants to pay £2 per journey you make and find a journey from Manc to Leeds too high at £6 Advance so with fares as low as you want them who is going to pay for all this then?

 

[island]

With respect, exactly 0 of these things are the problem of the passengers potentially up for prosecution as a result.

Nonetheless, there are two simple solutions:

1. Staff the station
2. Offer a full range of tickets onboard from that station

How much more would you be willing to pay for your train ticket so that those can be achieved?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With respect, exactly 0 of these things are the problem of the passengers potentially up for prosecution as a result.

Nonetheless, there are two simple solutions:

1. Staff the station
2. Offer a full range of tickets onboard from that station

3. Install TVMs accepting cash and card, and selling a full range of walk-up tickets from that origin (including Rovers/Rangers). We're almost there, it wouldn't be hard to finish the job.

Edit: 3a: If unwilling to do that, remove the TVM entirely and install a PERTIS machine instead.

4. Deal with RTVs a different way, e.g. by giving a cheque refund instead of a voucher.

5. If unwilling to do these, accept that I won't use the TVM if it doesn't offer the ticket I wish to buy, and I also won't miss my connection to queue and have a ticket excessed as I planned to purchase a ticket before boarding using a method of payment accepted by the railway and was denied the ability to do that by the railway's own decision.

Neil
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But having machines that take cash at stations that are totally unstaffed is a nightmare because they will get vandalised and robbed. That's a fact and would lead to the TVMs being out of service for so much longer so it would inconvenience the passenger even more which would have people bleating on here about not having working ones when it can take a couple of weeks to get them fixed.

TBH, given what warrants are used for, I think they could be replaced with a system based on ToD/remote ordering. And RTVs would be better replaced with an actual (cheque or BACS) refund.

Neil
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So, how come I sell thousands of pounds worth of tickets every month to people travelling from manned stations with open ticket offices? (And I'm not talking excesses or upgrades, but whole new tickets). A significant number of people won't buy a ticket unless you make them, and giving them excuses like "I wanted to pay cash / postal order / little plastic token" when they have a few plastic cards on them that they could have used is only giving them a "get out of jail free" card.

Then don't give them a get out of jail free card. Instead, make sure anyone wishing to buy a ticket using a specified[1], accepted method of payment can do at the TVM before boarding, and having done that introduce a Penalty Fares area. Job done.

[1] If the ticket machine is faulty such that it will accept only a limited range of payments, or not give change, modify it so it will issue on request a ticket showing this, so nobody who hasn't at least tried to use it has any excuse.

Neil
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I meant to say that they're not posting in this type of thread.

If TOCs have a problem with scrotes using "I wanted to pay cash" as an excuse when they didn't want to pay, there are many available solutions. Example solutions that have worked to remove this excuse include:

• Accept cash at TVMs, a la Merseyrail or FGW in D&C
• Don't accept cash at all, a la London Buses

Exactly.

Though, FWIW, I personally believe ticketless travel should be decriminalised and pursued using the same kind of system that parking offences are.

Neil
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Aside from the fact that your post replied to someone discussing an authorized overdraft, debit card payments take a couple of days to settle so there is time enough for the passenger to get to the bank.

And who's going to pay the cost of them getting there?

Unacceptable. If I had time/money to do so I'd love to challenge this in Court, set precedent and make a fool of those TOCs applying it in an unreasonable manner.

Neil

 

[Rich McLean]

Now we know that all Stations south of Bridgwater which have a TVM, all accept card and cash, so my second point in the case of Exeter is not valid in that area and there is no excuse. I don't know the West area of the network that well hence asking the question in here.

Speaking to someone who works the gates at Oxford (in an area which I do know)

With regards to other TVMs on the Network, Hanborough being an example which is card only, if you are stopped by an RPI after boarding from there and there is a RPI block at Reading where you are travelling too, if you intended to pay by cash, you will still be written up, but as long as you state a reasonable answer in your written statement as to why you chose to not pay by card at the TVM before boarding, the Prosecutions department will asses it and then just charge you the appropriate fare for the the journey made.

Apparently the reason for the above is to catch those out who decide to "take that chance" when refusing to pay by card to avoid paying at all, and only paying when challenged. The RPI will ask questions such as "why didn't you pay card if you have one in your possession"

Only a matter of time before it gets tested in court if the reply to the letter doesn't match the circumstances on the day in regards to refusing to pay by card at a TVM, or if the passenger stopped fails the attitude test