Greater Anglia Good and Bad Discussion

[Wayneh]

Evening

In readiness for our new year public discussion about the Greater Anglia Franchise bid or otherwise, I thought it may be an idea to capture views, good and bad about rail services in Anglia.

We had the normal "if you don't like it, buy a car" comments on the old improvements forum but it's time to debate the state of Anglia rail services here

Join in and have your say.

 

[SF-02]

It looks like many of their lines in London have seen big growth recently. They'll lose all that in May though. As a % of passengers & services how much will be lost when Shenfield - Liverpool Street goes to Crossrail in May 2015, and Liverpool St to Enfield, Cheshunt and Chingford goes to London Overground? Looks like a very hefty amount of the network that will no longer be under their control.

 

[Wayneh]

Lets start with a positive and praise an excellent GA Senior Manager in Alan Neville at Harlow Town.

Alan is both an excellent communicator and an inspiration in a glum landscape.

Its good to see that there are good senior staff there

 

[jopsuk]

On the fundamentals:

it was bid for as a (slightly longer than) 2 year franchise contract. So there was little commitment to do that much to the fleet- with the intention that the replacement after two years would be a long term franchisee who would have other ideas and wouldn't want a half-refurbished fleet.

The two year extension seems to have been taken in the same approach.

They do, of course, lose most of the "metro" operations in May, which will change things quite considerably

 

[Saint66]

The front line staff do a pretty good job considering the problems their trains have had, and how much 'grief' they get from customers. Got to feel for those who run the social media too.

 

[Essexwiganer]

My experience with GA has been appalling over the last 4 months since moving to Colchester. Like many people have, I bought a property on the new development close to colchester town. I thought it was perfect as the train stopped at Colchester Town.

To my dismay, on a weekly basis I am subject to delays and cancellations. Please check the 0800 from Colchester town to Liverpool Street on the real train times website. One week I have 3 cancellations and 2 lates.

The poor service regularly causes me to be late for work and will impact on the likelihood of a promotion at work. Yes I could get the earlier train but for more than £5000 a year id expect the train I want to turn up!

The 18:30 is standing room only on the way back.

They also need to get their story straight when they take staff from the office at Colchester town. Someone hadn't passed on the message that they were pretending that the machine had broke so the other day when I got to colchester they actually said they'd take the staff (not realising about the sign)

Rant over, poor service, second class service, first class prices

 

[Wayneh]

The front line staff are generally excellent given the calibre of people leading them.

 

[Essexwiganer]

As regards to repayments. I only get the price of the single journey, although my full day is impacted and to be honest I understand how much I pay do I don't care much about getting the money back...I just want a better service

 

[samuelmorris]

Agree with the decision this should be given its own thread.

Another AM peak journey with AGA due tomorrow so I will see how that goes. I can understand the lack of major infrastructure commitment on the original short 2 year franchise. While disappointing I can also understand it for the second 2 year franchise as well. It's forgivable to leave major refurbishment/replacement and line upgrade programmes to the long-term franchise. What's not forgivable is some of the customer service management in times of disruption and the general state of upkeep of the rolling stock. That, however, is ultimately a secondary objective for the travelling public. It's not nice to travel on a filthy train but I'd still (within reason) rather arrive on-time on a dirty train than be delayed on a clean one. Whether or not NR are mostly to blame, the current Anglia franchise suffers both issues in abundance, on both the Great Eastern and West Anglia side. That does really need to change before the end of the second 2-year franchise. In 2015 I'm going to start trying to survey the service as a whole to see if it's really as bad as is purported by some here - I rather suspect that it is. Still, no point going after 'the man' without some evidence first

On the staff front, I've only had one customer service encounter with AGA in the last couple of years, being an oyster user. That was a ticket inspector refusing to accept oyster PAYG as a valid method of travel between Stratford and Shenfield, around a couple of months after the system was introduced. (To be more specific, he stated that the platform readers on 3/6 at Stratford were not valid touch-in points for oyster, even though I had done the same journey numerous times and verified that the online oyster statement recorded the journey correctly without any 'no sign-out' or penalty fares, and told him such). I did not win the argument, to the mirth of several other nearby passengers who also knew the rules like I did. However, since this occurred on approach to Shenfield and I was shortly to leave the train anyway, no further action was taken, him still insisting I was in the wrong (and that the correct procedure when transferring between oyster cards was to sign out at the exit barriers, leave the station entirely and re-enter on the second oyster card). I reported this by email to GA at the time and got a fairly to-the-point but considered email from staff a few days later saying that I was in fact in the right and that I should ignore him. Not a great sample size, but that experience less than impressed me.
Still, that all occurred before the recent seeming downturn in punctuality. The term 'worst railway operator' is a very bold one to throw around, but when I think of all the other TOCs in the UK, I can't really think of one that's doing a worse job right now save perhaps Northern, simply for still being lumbered with a real shortage of stock and having to still use Pacers. I'll overlook the Abellio connection there as the DfT's rolling stock plans aren't really their concern anyway.

 

[EssexCommuter]

The lack of investment by AGA is down to the Government. They set the criteria for the current franchise, and that meant no new trains. It doesn't matter how long the franchise is, the Government have to agree to it.

I disagree that it is forgivable to leave line upgrade programmes to the longer term franchise. Regardless of the TOC it is absolutely inexcusable that Network Rail have let the GEML get into such a bad state. The infrastructure is falling apart, and they only seem to be putting sticking plasters on it. However I digress, as I do not believe that is related to the TOC.

Abellio seem to have very low standards of cleanliness and, more importantly, maintenance. Whilst it would be difficult perhaps for maintenance staff to identify heating faults when the train is in the depot (although I don't believe any of the trains have thermostats), how they miss broken windows, doors, seats etc I have no idea.

Many of the front line staff try very hard, but the management do not care. They invest in things like changing their logo, changing the website and changing announcements to say "we thank passengers for their patience and understanding". I have not seen one example of where they have listened to passenger feedback.

Thank you though, to the front line staff who do try their best to get us to where we need to be.

 

[dk1]

Today's IC services at Liv St had just one turnaround cleaner & nobody doing toilets. The poor chap had less than 15min and filled no less than 10 bags of rubbish. Train was full & standing in & out. If we where late there would have been no cleaning whatsoever.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Lets start with a positive and praise an excellent GA Senior Manager in Alan Neville at Harlow Town.

Alan is both an excellent communicator and an inspiration in a glum landscape.

Its good to see that there are good senior staff there

Is that where he is based, reason I ask is that his name is on alot of posters at various stations on the AGA network, males me think that although he is the boss of these stations he runs them from Norwich or somewhere similar

 

[oliMw]

I'm sure the rural service problems are a drop in the pond in to the problems on the commuter services however I myself do not travel on the commuter trains towards London often however I do use the Rural services often so I shall give my experience on these services because I am becoming tired with some of the regular faults of AGA.

At the start of the franchise it seemed that AGA were making improvements, trains were cleaner, staff were friendlier and the light refurbishment of the rural stocked made an improvement however recently things have gone down hill.

Many of the rural trains are filthy both inside and out with litter strewn across the train, dirty seats and a filthy interior where some of the seats seem to be falling apart already. As for the outside of the trains it is a little difficult to see out of the trains with the current rate of grime on the windows and they look as if they haven't been cleaned externally for a while. Punctuality is less of a problem on the rural services however there are regular occasions where the trains are around 5 minutes late and this can make connections for buses difficult, whether this is a timetabling issue or not I do not know however it is annoying!

On a staffing level I find that the conductors on-board (or whatever they're called ) are generally friendly and helpful however the staff on the gateline in Norwich are not often particular helpful with one man who I often find seems that he does not wish to deal with customers and would rather not talk to anyone. In the ticket office the staff are often helpful on most occasions and god knows what that help desk is about!

I understand that on Intercity and commuter services that things are not great and whenever I travel to London it does seem that there is at least some sort of delay to the service. I am travelling on the Intercity service this week so I lets hope that it goes ok!

 

[dk1]

I'm sure the rural service problems are a drop in the pond in to the problems on the commuter services however I myself do not travel on the commuter trains towards London often however I do use the Rural services often so I shall give my experience on these services because I am becoming tired with some of the regular faults of AGA.

At the start of the franchise it seemed that AGA were making improvements, trains were cleaner, staff were friendlier and the light refurbishment of the rural stocked made an improvement however recently things have gone down hill.

Many of the rural trains are filthy both inside and out with litter strewn across the train, dirty seats and a filthy interior where some of the seats seem to be falling apart already. As for the outside of the trains it is a little difficult to see out of the trains with the current rate of grime on the windows and they look as if they haven't been cleaned externally for a while. Punctuality is less of a problem on the rural services however there are regular occasions where the trains are around 5 minutes late and this can make connections for buses difficult, whether this is a timetabling issue or not I do not know however it is annoying!

On a staffing level I find that the conductors on-board (or whatever they're called ) are generally friendly and helpful however the staff on the gateline in Norwich are not often particular helpful with one man who I often find seems that he does not wish to deal with customers and would rather not talk to anyone. In the ticket office the staff are often helpful on most occasions and god knows what that help desk is about!

I understand that on Intercity and commuter services that things are not great and whenever I travel to London it does seem that there is at least some sort of delay to the service. I am travelling on the Intercity service this week so I lets hope that it goes ok!

Gate line staff are not directly employed by AGA. They work for Carlisle services. Some 156s have been heavy cleaned externally in the last 2wks. More to come.

 

[oliMw]

Ahh well I did not know that I take back that previous statement as a fault of AGA. The deep clean is definitely good news!

 

[stu227]

The fundamental issue to consider here is that much of the trouble is caused by DfT. Someone above said, Northern's rolling stock issues are the fault of DfT. Abellio's issues are a continuation of those of NX, and before it First. The common theme: DfT's insistence that East Anglia should be a no-investment treasury cash-cow. Virtually no investment since the early 90s (there are still trains rolling around with BR upholstery) means we're in the situation we are.

That's cold comfort to anyone who buys a ticket from the chaotic operator now, and finds themselves contracted with Abellio to travel on a train that will invariably be dirty, late or just non-existent.

However, what's *really* important is that the next franchise is let on the right terms - that DfT understand the importance of ensuring conditions and plans are included for cleaning, refurbishment and replacement of rolling stock, etc.

The Government have for too long got away with the neat scam of putting a private company on the front line of running railways the govt own and manage, then sitting back and laughing at the taxpayer who thinks it's that private entity's fault they can't get to work on time. Gov.uk have set up a system which allows them to drive rail into the ground and shift the blame onto private companies. The private companies are happy to play along, because they get a cut of the profits (and that's what companies are supposed to do) - its all quite smart really.

I look forward to this meeting in Jan, but hope the focus is getting it right once AGA are gone, not just getting rid of AGA.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed with the above - changing the TOC is only going to go a very small way to dealing with these issues. A ground-up new 'attitude' towards this route from the government is going to be necessary in order to bring it up to standard.

 

[Wayneh]

The above two posts illustrate our need to coordinate a response to the tender documentation

I will be in touch here early new year with dates and location hopefully around Liverpool St.

 

[samuelmorris]

Sounds good.

Having just been passed by two of them I do wonder how bad the issues with wheel flats are on the Norwich sets because even the sets that are in service have some coaches making a horrendous racket!
On time departure from Shenfield this morning although I am having my bowels shaken about by a particularly violent compressor this time
The carpet in the doorway area is pretty rough to be honest, not sure how often they're cleaned...
Amazingly though, both the info displays in this carriage are working!

 

[SPADTrap]

The fundamental issue to consider here is that much of the trouble is caused by DfT. Someone above said, Northern's rolling stock issues are the fault of DfT. Abellio's issues are a continuation of those of NX, and before it First. The common theme: DfT's insistence that East Anglia should be a no-investment treasury cash-cow. Virtually no investment since the early 90s (there are still trains rolling around with BR upholstery) means we're in the situation we are.

That's cold comfort to anyone who buys a ticket from the chaotic operator now, and finds themselves contracted with Abellio to travel on a train that will invariably be dirty, late or just non-existent.

However, what's *really* important is that the next franchise is let on the right terms - that DfT understand the importance of ensuring conditions and plans are included for cleaning, refurbishment and replacement of rolling stock, etc.

The Government have for too long got away with the neat scam of putting a private company on the front line of running railways the govt own and manage, then sitting back and laughing at the taxpayer who thinks it's that private entity's fault they can't get to work on time. Gov.uk have set up a system which allows them to drive rail into the ground and shift the blame onto private companies. The private companies are happy to play along, because they get a cut of the profits (and that's what companies are supposed to do) - its all quite smart really.

I look forward to this meeting in Jan, but hope the focus is getting it right once AGA are gone, not just getting rid of AGA.

How and why would you focus on something you don't know will happen? Nor have any real powers over deciding, out of interest?

 

[43074]

I look forward to this meeting in Jan, but hope the focus is getting it right once AGA are gone, not just getting rid of AGA.

There's no assurance anywhere to suggest that AGA will go.

Should Abellio bid for the next franchise, there is nothing apart from the competition from other bidders that would stop them from winning the new franchise if they produced a good bid.

 

[Wayneh]

The pubic consultation is happening soon.

Join us if you want your say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many of the 321s are running on half power Samuel.

There is a queue at Ilford to get them sorted.

Sadly it's symptomatic of Abellio crisis management for maintaining their rolling stock, something which needs to have KPIS set in the new franchise document.

I and colleagues intend to be positive about the consultation and see it as THE way the customer can seek to influence the terms and conditions of the new long franchise.

Only by putting these conditions in place now, can we even aspire to a decent service regardless of provider.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And to 43074, I agree. I teach public sector contracts for local and county councils.

The record of the provider is not a criteria selection and the rules of pre tender evaluation have been changed recently in favour of the seller.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A colleague on Twitter reports overcrowding at Chelmsford this morning with children unable to board trains.

Merry Christmas from GA.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think I've been on one that was like that a while back - perils of the single power car design I suppose - been on 357s with traction motor pairs isolated far more often I would point out, but of course that's 2/3 power rather than 1/2, they only need to make 75% of their top speed and they're more powerful to start with.

Arrived into London 5 late this morning, no big deal but it was rather turgid from Ilford onwards.
The thing that bugged me more was the state of the 360s in platform 13 later this morning when I was heading back out to Stratford. I know external appearance isn't all that important but they look as if they've not been cleaned since NXEA - absolutely filthy. That plus the seats with most of the fabric missing really doesn't make them very appealing.

 

[hassaanhc]

The pubic consultation is happening soon.

Join us if you want your say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many of the 321s are running on half power Samuel.

There is a queue at Ilford to get them sorted.

Sadly it's symptomatic of Abellio crisis management for maintaining their rolling stock, something which needs to have KPIS set in the new franchise document.

I and colleagues intend to be positive about the consultation and see it as THE way the customer can seek to influence the terms and conditions of the new long franchise.

Only by putting these conditions in place now, can we even aspire to a decent service regardless of provider.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And to 43074, I agree. I teach public sector contracts for local and county councils.

The record of the provider is not a criteria selection and the rules of pre tender evaluation have been changed recently in favour of the seller.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A colleague on Twitter reports overcrowding at Chelmsford this morning with children unable to board trains.

Merry Christmas from GA.

Pretty sure overcrowding at Christmas is normal, even after strengthening the service (using more coaches than normally planned).

 

[Wayneh]

But not with GA who struggle to run the ones they should.

Check the number shortforms tonight.

 

[hassaanhc]

But not with GA who struggle to run the ones they should.

Check the number shortforms tonight.

5 sets that are short (one loco hauled missing the buffet, rural DMU using single coach rather than two, and three EMUs).
Southeastern also have 5 sets short, all EMUs.
The other day South West Trains had NINE sets short!

 

[samuelmorris]

Tonight's conveyance is a 7-car 321. The rearmost car is in darkness with orange high-vis wandering around inside with torches. Wondering if it was a brave move to board this one :P

I'm trying not to think about what that is on the floor between the seats. It does look remarkably like faeces but given the lack of smell I imagine it's probably mud - not sure what the sticky goo my feet are resting is though... This all could be today's detritus but I rather suspect it's not.

Hassaan has a point though, short forms are common across the network and SWT do suffer badly, presumably owing to the plethora of issues their additional stock programme has had.

 

[91104]

I live on the Southend Victoria line and although the service isn't perfect I don't think it's as bad as people make out. I am lucky with my job that I never really travel in the peaks but as far as I know most trains are 12 cars and there's only so many paths into Liverpool Street so don't know what more can be done to reduce overcrowding.
I actually like the 321s and would take one of them over a 360 but I'm also old enough to remember (and miss greatly) the 309 & 312s one thing I would say is Southend airport is getting busier and there's no real luggage space on the 321s so maybe Abellio could look at flight times and at least double up some off peak services to 8 cars as seems some trains have half the population of Holland on them.
Freight trains will always cause problems at Stratford and been held up many times because of them.
Sunday services are woeful though running a 2 track railway on Sunday's with stopping metro services just doesn't work. The 05/35 Shenfield services get swamped and lose time in stations so the following 14/44 Southend services catch them up usually around Seven Kings/Goodmayes and follow all the way to Shenfield and arrive late at Wickford causing the train off the Southminster branch to be held outside and by the time it arrives the London bound xx.40 has arrived resulting in people missing their connection and waiting 30 mins seen this happen so many times but I feel most of the problems are caused by the infrastructure and is out of Abellios control.

 

[Wayneh]

The lines around Stratford need considerable investment to make them semi useful.

I work in Southend every Friday.

C2c to Southend walk to Prittlewell

 

[Dan27]

I live on the Southend Victoria line. The Class 321 trains are sorely in need of a complete refurbishment both internally and under the hood. I would have hoped that the demonstrator that was brought out would be a sign of things to come very soon but sadly this was not to be the case.

In terms of actual commuter experience, the rolling stock is awful. In the summers, you are left baking with the only kind of cooling in the seating areas being airflow from the open windows. In the winter even if you are lucky to have heating working you still have lots of cold draft. God help you if you're on a late night train and the heating isn't on.

In terms of punctionality, I would hope that the advent of Crossrail and their new rolling stock for the current Metro line would reduce the chance of breakdowns from Shenfield onwards - but it seems like the tolerance to such breakdowns (which happen way too often - caused by rolling stock age no doubt) is very little.

In terms of the positive, I think all the AGA staff are excellent. I have never had an issue with any person I have met face to face in my years of travelling, and I do feel that the staff that work on their Twitter account are absolute saints.

I have little doubt that the usual apologists here will pick apart what I have to say about my experience, but I'll get this in first - please, don't. This post is about *my* experience, and is *my* opinion. I quite frankly don't care about those who don't walk in my shoes.