Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Bletchleyite]

With Network Rail now possibly talking 2021 for North Transpennine Electrification completion then the idea of substancial parts of the network being electrified by 2025 or even 2030 is looking somewhat fanciful, and then there predictions of massive spending cuts after the next election who ever is in power, that to me suggests there is real need to buy some more dmu's either something along the lines of 172 or a bi-mode and see what the manufacturer's can come up with, and maybe the Dft needs come to some sort of deal with the leasing companies, finance companies etc. to get these things funded.

I think if buying new a bi-mode EDMU designed to run at 110mph under the wires but say 75mph on diesel would be a good thing, and the smaller engine would mean it would (a) be cheaper, (b) be lighter and (c) pollute less. Such a vehicle would be good for Barrow services and similar, and perhaps for TPE as electrification grows.

Neil

 

[RobShipway]

To me what is needed is a 4 car or 5 car class 387, but able to have a small diesel engine under each coach as there is under the Voyager coaches, but as Neil states still capable of 110mph under the wires.

 

[Wolfie]

From long experience of the 319s I find their seating to be notably poor. If Adrian Shooter has his normal competence about him, he will ensure that the new seats provided in the D-diesels (because the current longitudinal ones patently have to be replaced) will be notably comfortable and a real improvement on much of what has been provided in recent times, whether Pendolino or Class 378, in all of which the seats are apparently hugely expensive and introduced with much hoopla by their manufacturers, and yet have all the comfort of an Indian fakir's bed of nails (the Class 378 especially). There's a sort of undercurrent in all the PR than New = More Comfortable and a Better Ambience than What Went Before. Actually, as we know only too well by now, it doesn't.

This is all incredibly subjective. I had spinal surgery last year. I find the 378 seats fine. I find the seats in Mk 3s (if original) unsupportive and seriously uncomfortable. The seats in the 319 I was on yesterday were fine - better than the 350 I'll be on tomorrow. ...

 

[northwichcat]

RMT were a bit slow on this one

OLD London Underground trains could be used to replace the region's unpopular Pacers, union officials have claimed.

Rail union RMT claims a shortage of rolling stock could mean that old London Underground trains could be brought into service in the North-East.

Chancellor George Osborne used his Autumn Statement to declare that the outdated Pacers would be phased out.

He said the invitations to tender for the Northern franchise would specify that the trains should be replaced.

However, RMT said it had become aware of a proposal to convert London Underground D78 units - that were already 30-years-old and being de-commissioned by LU - into diesels trains for use in the North of England.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said: “The Government’s whole franchise timetable for the Northern and TransPennine Express routes has descended into chaos.

"We now know that the pledges to replace the clapped out Pacer’s has been exposed as nothing but hot air as the Government strategy for rail across the North unravels before their eyes and that they are also being forced to consider replacing one lash up with another by press-ganging 30-year-old London Underground stock into service raising serious safety issues."

The claims were made this week in the influential Rail Business Intelligence bulletin.

The Department for Transport said it was committed to improving services for passengers across the North and wanted industry to decide how the Pacers should be replaced.

A spokeswoman added: "We recognise that Pacers fall short of passengers’ expectations, which is why we will be specifically requiring bidders for the next Northern franchise to phase these outdated trains out. These bids must include improved rolling stock.

“The industry is best placed to tell us how more modern, better quality trains can be introduced, and it is only right that we look to them as we push ahead with our ambitious plans to transform the North’s rail network.”

Earlier this the Government suggested that Pacers could be modernised, however the idea was rejected by David Cameron who told The Northern Echo bidders for the Northern franchise would be required to propose plans for their removal Pacers.

Last month, rail experts including Julie Mills, rail project director at the Department for Transport (DfT), agreed that the country was woefully short of diesel trains.

Ms Mills said the DfT was already sounding out manufacturers on building replacements, however it is understood it could be years before new trains are brought into service.

The Northern Echo has launched the Right Lines campaign to push for a better rail service for the North-East.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne..._old_London_Underground_trains__union_claims/

 

[Murph]

This is all incredibly subjective. I had spinal surgery last year. I find the 378 seats fine. I find the seats in Mk 3s (if original) unsupportive and seriously uncomfortable. The seats in the 319 I was on yesterday were fine - better than the 350 I'll be on tomorrow. ...

It is subjective, but there are some fundamental mistakes made with some seating. Most notably is the trend for curved/moulded "ergonomic" seating. That type of seat is fine if you are smaller or the same as the size of person it's shaped for. If you are taller or wider (doesn't necessarily equate to being overweight, some people are just wide without much fat, just as some are naturally tall), they are horribly uncomfortable due to the concentrated pressure of the edges of the curves digging into you. It's one of the reasons that I hate the Voyager seats, as it's highly uncomfortable having the top of the seat basically digging into my shoulders at 2 narrow points and the middle top of my back unsupported by the seat. A mostly flat and well padded seat, on the other hand, will work reasonably for the majority of the population.

Even worse is when they use that type of seat in a constrained space (e.g. tilt-profile, or 2+3), as the seat will almost certainly end up being narrower. With bench seating, 2+3 can also function as 2small + 2large, or even 1large + 2large, making it work reasonably for a greater proportion of the population. Individual curved seats as 2+3 are horrible for anyone on the larger end of the scale, as well as not much fun for a small person next to a large one, as the curve makes it awkward to sit a little offset to compensate.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ing-converted-into-demus--next-stop-the-north

This plan is going ahead...

The Rail Technology Magazine has confirmed that the former London Underground stock was purchased in November for conversion into a cheap replacement for Pacer trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ing-converted-into-demus--next-stop-the-north

This is no longer a rumour...

The Rail Technology Magazine has confirmed the the former London Underground stock was purchased in November for conversion into a cheap replacement for Pacer trains.

Towards the end of the report in the submitted link is a denial by a DfT spokesman....for whatsoever that is worth.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't know what price Vivarail were able to buy these trains for, but they're taking one heck of a gamble buying that sort of volume of rolling stock if it turns out that nobody is interested in running it.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

It is also worth noting only some units will have a toilet. The only other trains to run on Network Rail without them are 139s and Tyne and Wear trains. So for some it may be a downgrade, especially if they have kids.

Edit: also Merseyrail, Southern rail, Southeastern EMUs. Island line trains and probably some others.

 

[sprinterguy]

The only other trains to run on Network Rail without them are 139s and Tyne and Wear trains.

And the majority of inner suburban EMUs?

(Classes 313/314/315, 376/378, 455/456 and 507/508)

 

[47802]

Well there's certainly plenty of bull**** in that railtech article, they are much more than London cast off's really? they are a purpose designed Diesel Trains really? I thought they were purpose designed electrics for the London Underground

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Towards the end of the report in the submitted link is a denial by a DfT spokesman....for whatsoever that is worth.

Good point Paul. But it also says TOCs like the idea, and the same spokesman says the future TOCs will have to have ''improved rolling stock'' which would allow these or even refurbished Pacers to run. No mention of the new trains from the Autumn statement.

 

[Clip]

Has Mr Cash mentioned the safety issues that he claims are 'Serious' yet?

 

[Brian Aylott]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ing-converted-into-demus--next-stop-the-north

This is no longer a rumour...

The Rail Technology Magazine has confirmed that the former London Underground stock was purchased in November for conversion into a cheap replacement for Pacer trains.

It hasn't been a rumour for ages - it has even been on VivaRail's website for many weeks with full details and on other gen sites
There are 450 D78 vehicles of which 10 are to be converted for London Underground for 2 Rail Adhesion Trains
I know that '300 plus' was mentioned in Modern Railways a few issues ago but I believe this to be a misunderstanding because a scrap dealer is expecting 150 for cut this year
It would appear that VivaRail are paying something like the scrap price for these so that they will get most of this back if the project is not successful - which is a possibility - maybe even a probability
Brian

 

[northwichcat]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ing-converted-into-demus--next-stop-the-north

This is no longer a rumour...

The Rail Technology Magazine has confirmed that the former London Underground stock was purchased in November for conversion into a cheap replacement for Pacer trains.

It wasn't ever really a rumour. I first heard about it after a presentation was done by Vivarail at a rail conference. However, as no-one had heard of Vivarail so one of moderators decided to add 'Rumour that' to the start of the title I had given the thread.

 

[47802]

It hasn't been a rumour for ages - it has even been on VivaRail's website for many weeks with full details and on other gen sites
There are 450 D78 vehicles of which 10 are to be converted for London Underground for 2 Rail Adhesion Trains
I know that '300 plus' was mentioned in Modern Railways a few issues ago but I believe this to be a misunderstanding because a scrap dealer is expecting 150 for cut this year
It would appear that VivaRail are paying something like the scrap price for these so that they will get most of this back if the project is not successful - which is a possibility - maybe even a probability
Brian

All the design work and creating a prototype will not be cheap though

 

[eastwestdivide]

But one or two prototypes can probably find medium-term use somewhere on a self-contained branch, even if nobody takes up options on a fleet. They've still got scrap value for the remainder, and scrap prices don't show much of a long-term downward trend.
With the engineering and design experience in the Vivarail team, and the backup of scrap prices, it does seem to be "worth a punt".

 

[Peter Sarf]

Towards the end of the report in the submitted link is a denial by a DfT spokesman....for whatsoever that is worth.

Oh well that makes it very likely to be true then .

 

[edwin_m]

Towards the end of the report in the submitted link is a denial by a DfT spokesman....for whatsoever that is worth.

The spokesman is denying that there is any government proposal to do this. Probably the same one who keeps saying that rolling stock is a matter for the TOCs not DfT.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If they do get a proper prototype sorted I do think it would be interesting to show it to passengers on current Pacer lines, without making it explicit that it is actually an old LUL train. If they aren't displeased with it for the short term, and it is made clear that they are an option that would require no increase in fares, then it is certainly worth a shot.

 

[Murph]

The spokesman is denying that there is any government proposal to do this. Probably the same one who keeps saying that rolling stock is a matter for the TOCs not DfT.

Yup, and if you read all of it, it's possible to interpret it as not ruling out the D78s being part of a solution offered by industry. I.e. DfT are saying that they are not proposing D78s or any other particular solutions, but leaving it up to industry to come up with solutions. If the combination of Vivarail and TOCs present a good case for using D78s, sufficient to win a franchise, D78s will get used. If not, Vivarail will likely try to offer them around to anyone short of stock after the franchise dust settles, or open access, or eventually the metal merchants.

 

[route:oxford]

But one or two prototypes can probably find medium-term use somewhere on a self-contained branch, even if nobody takes up options on a fleet. They've still got scrap value for the remainder, and scrap prices don't show much of a long-term downward trend.
With the engineering and design experience in the Vivarail team, and the backup of scrap prices, it does seem to be "worth a punt".

Exactly

There are plenty of places on the Network where these units can be utilised. Indeed, there are plenty of places on the Network where these units open up the opportunity for new trial services.

For existing services, I'm thinking Marlow, Henley, Princes Risborough

For new services. I'm thinking Stirling-Dunfermline via Alloa, Oxford to Horspath via BMW

 

[Murph]

If they do get a proper prototype sorted I do think it would be interesting to show it to passengers on current Pacer lines, without making it explicit that it is actually an old LUL train. If they aren't displeased with it for the short term, and it is made clear that they are an option that would require no increase in fares, then it is certainly worth a shot.

I agree that "it's an old LUL train" should not be high on the list when presenting it. On the other hand, I think it's important to be honest in the presentation. The way I'd present it is as a "remanufactured" product, recycling the LUL components which have lots of life left and otherwise a nearly-new product. I.e. make sure that it's sold as far more than a deep refurbishment, but don't deny or hide the LUL elements of it.

I think the general public are smart enough to see that reusing the structure, body, and wheels in an otherwise mostly new product is a good way to reduce costs without cutting too much quality, if it's presented to them in the right way.

 

[Haydn1971]

My cynicism is deeply rooted in previous "refurbishment" spin by the DfT and operators like Northern, who have previously promised more and delivered less - it wouldn't surprise me to see the D78 stock with the same seat, locked middle doors, no PID's and the bare minimum to get these things running on existing mainlines.

 

[47802]

My cynicism is deeply rooted in previous "refurbishment" spin by the DfT and operators like Northern, who have previously promised more and delivered less - it wouldn't surprise me to see the D78 stock with the same seat, locked middle doors, no PID's and the bare minimum to get these things running on existing mainlines.

Even with my cynicism I think they need to do a bit more than that to justify it as a Railbus replacement

 

[cjmillsnun]

My cynicism is deeply rooted in previous "refurbishment" spin by the DfT and operators like Northern, who have previously promised more and delivered less - it wouldn't surprise me to see the D78 stock with the same seat, locked middle doors, no PID's and the bare minimum to get these things running on existing mainlines.

D78s already have a PIS complete with display. It would just need reprogramming.

Image by Peter Skuce via Wikipedia

 

[edwin_m]

It's absolutely vital for Viva to get a demonstrator built, approved and running some serious mileage before the bids for the new Northern franchise are finalised sometime in the middle of next year. As suggested above, running as a demonstrator on some potential routes would be a good way of judging passenger reaction as well as getting real service experience and convincing skeptical bidders. Failing that they need to hire a test track or heritage railway and do all the running they can.

All Northern's existing rolling stock leases probably run out at the end of the franchise in 2016 and bidders will want to offer a winning combination of quality and price, bearing in mind that the advent of the D78 will probably drive down the lease cost of Pacers and even 150s and trigger some horse-trading (and we may even see some refurb demonstrators emerging for these). Viva will want to get as many as possible, and preferably all, the bidders signed up for D78s. If they have signed with a successful bidder then they have probably placed all 75 units and their one remaining problem is to ensure they run as advertised and generate a profit.

If they fail to do so then the opportunity drops back to ones and twos for growth builds. The next biggish DMU-using franchise competition is Anglia, which is 6 months behind Northern, but the D stock could realistically only replace the smallish fleets of 153s and 156s and even there the low top speed could be a problem. West Midlands, to be awarded in early 2017, could just possibly see a major rabbit coming out of the hat with D78 replacing the 172 fleet, no doubt to howls of protest from all and sundry. After that there's only EMT, whose units I would say all need a 75mph capability, and Wales and Borders who will be expecting EMUs for Valley Lines so have no interest in any more than a short-term hire (again their other routes probably need 75mph units).

In view of this fairly poor prospect, it may be that if they don't get a deal for the Northern franchise they give up and send the rest of the D78s for scrap. Or perhaps find some overseas use.

 

[47802]

I suspect this is not a wild punt and wouldn't be happening without serious interest from the TOC's and the DFT and that possible suitable routes have already been decided upon, I have seen this hinted at on another forum by someone supposedly in the know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's absolutely vital for Viva to get a demonstrator built, approved and running some serious mileage before the bids for the new Northern franchise are finalised sometime in the middle of next year. As suggested above, running as a demonstrator on some potential routes would be a good way of judging passenger reaction as well as getting real service experience and convincing skeptical bidders. Failing that they need to hire a test track or heritage railway and do all the running they can.

I have no idea if they're interested, but LM on Bedford-Bletchley would be ideal. A low-speed route with low loadings suffering a severe reliability problem due to a new unit having to be brought down from Brum every time one breaks. Bletchley CS with plenty of space for maintaining a fleet of say 4 of them.

Or perhaps as a first go the Stourbridge Shuttle? Or the Aylesbury locals replacing the bubble car?

Neil

 

[Mikey C]

If you asked the majority of District Line users, they would have no idea that the D78 stock dates back to then 70s. They don't look like old trains, with their very comprehensive and contemporary refresh. The public would probably think they are far newer than say the 1992 stock