Doors open on moving train

[Bushy]

My son-in-law told me that the doors on a 395, on which he was travelling, opened before the train came to a halt at Canterbury West. I understood that there were interlocks to prevent this occurring. Is this not the case?

Regards

Bushy

 

[cjmillsnun]

That shouldn't be possible. When it happened on a 222, the RAIB got involved

 

[physics34]

At what speed.?

I now on 171/377/455s that i drive it is possible to release the doors while at less than 6mph.

 

[Bald Rick]

The 395s have a mechanism to pressure seal the doors which involves them moving (slightly) perpendicular to their direction of opening. This occurs at around 5mph, and they 'unseal' when the speed drops below that. It is possible that this is what was seen.

 

[Bushy]

The 395s have a mechanism to pressure seal the doors which involves them moving (slightly) perpendicular to their direction of opening. This occurs at around 5mph, and they 'unseal' when the speed drops below that. It is possible that this is what was seen.

I understand that they were open far enough for passengers to alight while the train was still moving but only for a very short time.

My experience of 395s is that the doors seem to take an age to open after the release indication is given and the 'open door' button is pressed. Whilst on 375s, that I am more familiar with, passengers jab the button, often multiple times, as soon as the train comes to a halt, not many bother before, and the doors open fairly quickly once the release indication is given. I had always assumed this slow operation of the 395 doors was the time taken by the pressure seal mechanism.

I'll the son-in-law ask for more detail.

Regards

Bushy

 

[185]

155s - in 2003 they still had no interlock.

158s - do bust open a lot, it seems. Had one open on me at Hunts Cross.

 

[ExRes]

At what speed.?

I now on 171/377/455s that i drive it is possible to release the doors while at less than 6mph.

Do you mind me asking how you know that and what possible reason would there be for releasing the doors at any speed other than 0mph

 

[edwin_m]

Apparently common practice in other countries to have the doors opening as the train comes to a stop. Result: shorter dwell times and no mass carnage on the platforms.

 

[FQ]

I hope Mr and Mrs joe normal didn't try and get on while the train was moving!

 

[physics34]

Do you mind me asking how you know that and what possible reason would there be for releasing the doors at any speed other than 0mph

there is no reason and i have never done it myself but the interlock relay 'clicks' off at about 6 mph (it.s audible in the cab)

I have been in 455s when the driver has opened the doors before the train has stopped and also seems to happen alot on London Underground too.

 

[Geeves]

Ive never heard anything about the 155s being fitted with interlock to this day. They didnt have it in 09/10 anyway.

 

[bramling]

there is no reason and i have never done it myself but the interlock relay 'clicks' off at about 6 mph (it.s audible in the cab)

I have been in 455s when the driver has opened the doors before the train has stopped and also seems to happen alot on London Underground too.

It used to be very common on LU, especially in the days of guards. In those days the only conditions required for doors to be opened were the guards door on that side must be open, and both open buttons pressed. So the doors could be opened on a moving train.

In OPO days some train designs were modified so that the driver's buttons would not work above a certain speed. In any case with the advent of Correct Side Door Enable the train would have to be within range of a CSDE signal 'zone' to enable the buttons. This still allowed the doors to be opened just as the train came to a stand. I don't recall this ever caused any kind of incident, though officially it was frowned upon.

On some of the ATO lines the train now requires an 'Accurate Stop' to be detected in order for the door buttons to be enabled. The Central and Victoria Lines get this fairly quickly enabling doors to be opened promptly. The TBTC lines, Jubilee and Northern are less prompt - on these lines there is always an obvious and annoying interval between the train stopping and the doors opening.

 

[causton]

The only stock this still regularly happens on (opening doors just before the train completely stops), on the Underground at least, are the 72 stock on the Bakerloo line. Maybe the D stock as well? Nothing else I've seen though.

 

[Monty]

On a 455 if the guard of working the unit from an unused driving cab, the respective cab door is isolated from the traction interlock when he has put his/her 'key on'. Basically this means that can door can be opened when the train is moving (not sure why you would want to but you can). Also the door controls on Desiro's can be made live if the unit is doing less than 3mph (though a door release will mean an emergency application of the trains brakes).

It's also worth mentioning if a trains Traction Interlock Switch (TIS) has been isolated there is absolutely nothing to stop a train moving with it's doors open. Though I should stress this wouldn't be used under normal operating conditions and would only be utilised in an emergency. The only situation I can think of off the top of my head would be if the train suddenly lost interlock while in service between stations and the traincrew were unable to regain interlock the TIS would then be used to move the train to the nearest safe location to detrain the passengers.

 

[tsr]

On a 455 if the guard of working the unit from an unused driving cab, the respective cab door is isolated from the traction interlock when he has put his/her 'key on'. Basicly this means that can door can be opened when the train is moving (not sure why you would want to but you can).

I know of SWT and (less commonly) Southern guards/conductors having used this feature to look out more clearly to observe their trains in and out of busy platforms whilst remaining at the main door controls. Obviously it comes with considerable personal risk to the member of staff, and as such is now forbidden under normal working for Southern conductors.

It's also worth mentioning if a trains Traction Interlock Switch (TIS) has been isolated there is absolutely nothing to stop a train moving with it's doors open. Though I should stress this wouldn't be used under normal operating conditions and would only be utilised in an emergency. The only situation I can think of off the top of my head would be if the train suddenly lost interlock while in service between stations and the traincrew were unable to regain interlock the TIS would then be used to move the train to the nearest safe location to detrain the passengers.

TIS could also be used if passengers could not be detrained at the next/current station due to very problematic unforeseen circumstances (eg. there is a party of wheelchair users onboard and you are at Wivelsfield, with its several flights of steep steps, at 1am - yes, unlikely, but not impossible) - in which case the relevant passengers would be escorted to the smallest possible area onboard in which they could be accommodated, and the train would then have its doors ALL physically checked for secure closure before departure. A competent person should usually accompany passengers in the defective vehicle(s).

Supposedly a few subclasses of Electrostar operating under TIS do now have an automatic emergency brake application if the emergency door release cable mechanism is activated, but it only kicks in after a fairly long fixed time - so I wouldn't want to try it and see.

 

[the sniper]

I imagine this is the case on most/all stock, but I guess it's also worth noting that on 323s at least it's possible for the train to move with the doors open if the driver releases/doesn't apply the brake in a station and there's a gradient. They can't take power though obviously.

 

[bramling]

The only stock this still regularly happens on (opening doors just before the train completely stops), on the Underground at least, are the 72 stock on the Bakerloo line. Maybe the D stock as well? Nothing else I've seen though.

It definitely does happen on the Victoria Line, although not as pronounced as in the old days. It certainly happened on the Northern Line up until Summer 2014! You're right with the D stock, happens a lot with those.

The 72 stock also has the design feature that the driver can drop the handle in Rheo 1 & Hold at low speed without getting an emergency brake application, which allows the driver to get their finger ready on the door buttons. Doing this would be a road test failure however, and it wasn't designed this way with this practice in mind!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ive never heard anything about the 155s being fitted with interlock to this day. They didnt have it in 09/10 anyway.

I was on a 150 that started off down the platform (I can't remember if it was under power or just rolling) at Bolton in the early 1990s with all passenger doors open.

Of course there are countries where trains routinely run with doors open.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have been in 455s when the driver has opened the doors before the train has stopped and also seems to happen alot on London Underground too.

I've seen that on Merseyrail as well.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know of SWT and (less commonly) Southern guards/conductors having used this feature to look out more clearly to observe their trains in and out of busy platforms whilst remaining at the main door controls. Obviously it comes with considerable personal risk to the member of staff, and as such is now forbidden under normal working for Southern conductors.

This was normal practice on Merseyrail up until 2000-ish, and could arguably have prevented the accident that occurred at Moorfields (I think) a couple of years ago. Then again, so could not belling the train off with someone leaning on it, or fitting droplights to the doors. 507/508 cab doors do not have interlocks.

It's also normal practice in most European countries.

Staff falling out in such situations is rare, though it has happened to someone I knew who was killed falling from a 150/1 manual cab door on the WCML (Alex, a former uk.railway poster - some here will have known him).

Neil

 

[Monty]

This was normal practice on Merseyrail up until 2000-ish, and could arguably have prevented the accident that occurred at Moorfields (I think) a couple of years ago. Then again, so could not belling the train off with someone leaning on it, or fitting droplights to the doors. 507/508 cab doors do not have interlocks.

I doubt that, the guard on that train was criminally negligent and was fully aware of what was going on. He had his head out of the rear cab window as the train was pulling away and could of applied the trains emergency brake himself had he realised that someone was leaning against the train at the last minute. The fact is he knew she was there, he expected her to back off as the train moved. She didn't, she fell between and she died.

 

[LowLevel]

The opening cab doors as mentioned are a design feature to mitigate the lack of droplight.

I believe the unfortunate guard on the 150 in the North West was pretty conclusively proven to have committed suicide.

 

[455driver]

I believe the unfortunate guard on the 150 in the North West was pretty conclusively proven to have committed suicide.

Would that be the one 'affectionately' known by all at his depot as BUF (big ugly fu+++r)?
Yeah real friendly!

 

[plastictaffy]

there is no reason and i have never done it myself but the interlock relay 'clicks' off at about 6 mph (it.s audible in the cab)

You hear the click on 350's, too. It's possible to open the cab door and lose interlock at any speed. Once interlock is gone, you could open the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe the unfortunate guard on the 150 in the North West was pretty conclusively proven to have committed suicide.

I did look out for a RAIB report on it for a while (as I sort-of knew him, and had met him on a few occasions) but one didn't seem to be published. Perhaps if that sadly was the case, this was out of sensitivity.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would that be the one 'affectionately' known by all at his depot as BUF (big ugly fu+++r)?
Yeah real friendly!

He seemed decent enough to me. I recall quite fondly a pleasant trip on the loco-hauled VT S&C diversions with him in the late 1990s. I also met him randomly working a train on the Oldham Loop and had a bit of a chat between him doing tickets and doors.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You hear the click on 350's, too. It's possible to open the cab door and lose interlock at any speed. Once interlock is gone, you could open the doors.

On a 350? Interesting, as the emergency release is a 2-step one - pull for emergency brake (i.e. to break the interlock), then pull again to actually release once the 5km/h bolts have released.

This gives rise to the odd situation in the UK that if you need to stop the train *now* rather than have a chat on the passcom first, you should pull the door release, not the passcom. Germany has both, the passcom is green and the brake red (and the door release separate from both). Though on some U-Bahn and S-Bahn stock pulling the emergency brake also releases the doors.

Neil

 

[starrymarkb]

Departing Lille on an E* the Guard/Chef du Train was working the doors from the door near my seat. While the steps retracted as normal the local door stayed open with the Gaurd/CdF observing the departure while the train was departing, they closed it just before leaving the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Departing Lille on an E* the Guard/Chef du Train was working the doors from the door near my seat. While the steps retracted as normal the local door stayed open with the Gaurd/CdF observing the departure while the train was departing, they closed it just before leaving the platform.

Yep, this is normal European practice, certainly in Germany and usually in Switzerland except where they can't be bothered and just shut all the doors at once. (See my other posts elsewhere about the complete lack of safety in SBB's dispatch procedure).

Neil

 

[edwin_m]

Anyone remember how the guards on the Tube lines used to keep the door open and watch the train out of the platform, with their heads well outside the curved profile of the train roof? Thinking of what might happen if they didn't duck back in quickly enough was pretty scary.

 

[plastictaffy]

On a 350? Interesting, as the emergency release is a 2-step one - pull for emergency brake (i.e. to break the interlock), then pull again to actually release once the 5km/h bolts have released.



Neil

When I say open the cab door, I actually mean by using the cab door button in the cab. There is a cap over it to stop you catching it by mistake. To open the cab door, you have to lift the cap, then press the button. I've heard stories of guards lifting the cap and hovering their button over the button, then when the driver has almost come to a stand, the train has lurched and the offending finger has caught the button. Cue stopping a heap and a rather upset driver. You can certainly release the cab door on a 321 before it's stopped - I know, I've done it!!

 

[flash]

Yep, this is normal European practice, certainly in Germany and usually in Switzerland except where they can't be bothered and just shut all the doors at once. (See my other posts elsewhere about the complete lack of safety in SBB's dispatch procedure).

Neil

Not for Eurostar, rule change last month has stopped that. Doors closed before departure.

 

[Bushy]

My son-in-law confirmed that doors were open for about 15s while the train was moving. Passengers had been able to open the doors and alight from the moving train; a passenger ahead of him was undecided on alighting from the moving train. The train was a 12 car 395. He commented that the stopping position is irregular at Canterbury West. Perhaps the approach was slow enough to allow the doors to release earlier than would normally occur.

Regards

Bushy

 

[cjmillsnun]

It definitely does happen on the Victoria Line, although not as pronounced as in the old days. It certainly happened on the Northern Line up until Summer 2014! You're right with the D stock, happens a lot with those.

The 72 stock also has the design feature that the driver can drop the handle in Rheo 1 & Hold at low speed without getting an emergency brake application, which allows the driver to get their finger ready on the door buttons. Doing this would be a road test failure however, and it wasn't designed this way with this practice in mind!

I have never seen it on either the '95 stock or the '09 stock.

It did occasionally happen with the 67 stock though.