Were Bombardier Voyagers a mistake?

[Class 170101]

I would like the above to happen, once East Coast cascade their HSTs as FGW HSTs are spoken for

Penzance/Plymouth - Edinburgh/Glasgow/Aberdeen (HSTs with a few doubled up Voyagers) 1tph
Bournemouth - Manchester (Doubled up Voyagers) 1tph
Southampton/Reading - Newcastle via Doncaster (single 220s) 1tph
South West/Bristol - Manchester (single 221s) 1tph
NEW Cardiff - York via Leeds (220s) 1tph
AMMENDED New Street - Derby 2tph (170s)
New Street - Leicester (170s) Halts service 1tph
New Street - Stanstead Airport (170s) 1tph

There will not be enough HSTs cascaded to run every NE - SW service as HST, but will enable many services to be doubled up, as detailed above.

Not perfect, but working with what we have got

HSTs would need to work diagrams that start and finish near depots capable of handling HSTs for fuelling so that suggests Penzance (Long Rock), Plymouth (Laira), Bristol (Phillips Marsh), Derby (Etches Park), Leeds (Neville Hill), Newcastle (Heaton), Edinburgh (Craigentinny) and Aberdeen (Clayhills).

So any diagram that finishes away from the locations listed would need to be Voyager I would suggest, which will include Birmingham and possibly Bristol and Newcastle (even though they are listed above).

Maintenance and Exams are probably only feasible at Plymouth, Leeds and Edinburgh.

 

[Rich McLean]

Corrected for you

You have cut the serivces, where I was adding in an extra train per hour via Leeds.

I take it you were taking the ****
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Virgin is probably glad of voyagers for new services to Shrewsbury and for diversions

However london Euston to scotland services hardly require voyagers and the Bangor services are electrified for most of the route... Where do the wires end?

Crewe on that route

 

[Aictos]

Actually I improved the services by extending the New Street to Derby services to Leicester, I removed the need to run the New Street to Leicester terminators and instead extend them though to Stansted which is needed and by reusing the 220s from the Cardiff to York service on other services, I've strengthen the services in the Core where it is most needed so instead of running single 220s in the Core I'm doubling them up.

All in all I think it's a good idea.

 

[Mark62]

The major problem for myself on the voyagers is that the seats in second class are simply too small. The amount of legroom they have in airline seats is quite disgusting when one considers that some of these DMU's travel from Aberdeen to Plymouth(and beyond) I am 6ft 4ins and my legs have zero movement in an airline seat. I am also a slim person and the seats are just wide enough. An average sized(not overweight) person who not get into these seats without their bottoms hanging over the side of the aisle seat.
There are many incipient problems with the voyagers. I always endeavour to travel first class. The vibration and noise from the motors when at top speed or when heavily accelerating is incredibly intrusive. This is in first class, so it must be worse in second. I have spoken to many of the stewards on these trains and they all say they much prefer working on HST's as the they are roomier etc. So it's only the passengers who suffer when travelling on a voyager.
I suspect the plan with the voyagers was simply to pack as many people as possible on to them in the fewest possible coaches. The designers remit was to maximise profit for operators. Clearly they didn't give a monkeys for passenger comfort when they were being designed.
I sincerely feel sorry for anyone who has to travel in these trains for any significant distance in second class. Even in first class, after three hours, my back is stiff and legs ache. But when travelling by EC in first class I actually reach my destination feeling rested and without physical discomfort.
There are many other obvious problems with the voyager but for myself it's the low levels of passenger comfort they offer that is the main problem.
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I agree with this except that the last point is valid only in hindsight. The 221s were ordered primarily for Birmingham-Scotland which was part of the XC franchise at the time. The timetable at the time had many of these workings continuing to Reading so they also tilt on the route via Oxford. When Birmingham-Scotland was transferred to West Coast there was no point in XC retaining tilting units so they disabled the tilt equipment. But unless someone finds a use for tilting diesels somewhere else, these units will indeed be dragging unnecessary weight around for the rest of their lives.

The speed upgrades for non-tilt trains covered quite a bit of the line between Birmingham and Sheffield. These are (mostly) plated as HST differential restrictions, so can be used by XC HSTs as well as EMT's HSTs and 222s.

An HST or Voyager can easily do it from New Street to Sheffield in an hour and yet they are still on the timings for a peak or 47. The amount of running time that XC have between Plymouth and Sheffield is quite ludicrous. I have seen them pull an hour back between the two locations when running late. Two weeks ago a voyager pulled 50 mins back between Sheffield and Plymouth.

 

[edwin_m]

An HST or Voyager can easily do it from New Street to Sheffield in an hour and yet they are still on the timings for a peak or 47. The amount of running time that XC have between Plymouth and Sheffield is quite ludicrous. I have seen them pull an hour back between the two locations when running late. Two weeks ago a voyager pulled 50 mins back between Sheffield and Plymouth.

That's probably because when all the timings were tightened up for "operation Princess" in 2002, the timetable fell apart for several months. They were then eased out drastically and as far as I know haven't been tightened up since.

 

[A0]

Noisy when accelerating, poor phone reception. I hate them.

For the second of your complaints, some of us would consider that an advantage.

 

[edwin_m]

For the second of your complaints, some of us would consider that an advantage.

Unfortunately it's bad enough that people have to keep shouting "say again", "I'm losing you" and "I'm on a train" but not so bad that it renders the phone completely dead.

 

[thenorthern]

Had someone other than Virgin Trains of won the Cross Country franchise what trains do you think would have been introduced?

 

[edwin_m]

The only other 125mph DMU design for the British loading gauge available since privatisation is the 180, which are quite a bit more comfortable than Voyagers but a lot less reliable.

Personally I think the Meridian is a reasonable train from the passenger's point of view, demonstrating what can be done even with a restricted cross-section, so I would have been happy if that interior had been designed earlier and VT had gone with it for the Voyagers.

 

[The Ham]

Bournemouth - Manchester (Doubled up Voyagers) 1tph
Southampton/Reading - Newcastle via Doncaster (single 220s) 1tph
South West/Bristol - Manchester (single 221s) 1tph
NEW Cardiff - York via Leeds (220s) 1tph

Bournemouth/Manchester will be able to change to EMU from about 2020.
Southampton/Newcastle would require some electrification in CP6, but only about 45 miles IIRC, so could be run by EMU's early in the next franchise.
Likewise the last two services listed wouldn't need a lot to electrify them.

I would therefore think that in the next or maybe next two XC franchises that there would be a lot of services run by EMU's. To avoid the mistake of short unit lengths that they would average 7 coaches long with a mix of 5, 7 and 9 coach sets (assuming 23m coaches). This would enable the 5 coach sets to run in pairs over the core whist providing scope for shorter trains on the outer edges of their network. The longer sets would provide a good level of capacity for other routes (a 7 coach set would have a similar number of seats as a pair of 220's).

Although all of the above could be 10 to 15 years away, each time a route (including those in the ICWC franchise which uses 221's) can use EMU's that frees up more 22x's to strengthen the other routes. As I have pointed out before it doesn't take many units to improve a lot of other services.

 

[sprinterguy]

Had someone other than Virgin Trains of won the Cross Country franchise what trains do you think would have been introduced?

Apparently the three shortlisted bidders for the original Crosscountry franchise in September 1996 were Prism Rail, Virgin and the Great Western Holdings management team originally responsible for the original Great Western and North West Trains franchises.

It seems plausible that, had Great Western Holdings been awarded the franchise, they would have ordered a squadron fleet of class 180s...and the franchise would have been saddled with even greater unreliability woes than ever they had with class 47s and mark 2s! Though there is a chance that we might, just might, have ended up with a decent quality, reasonably reliable train by this stage under Arriva management, much as Grand Central's small fleet of 180s are beginning to achieve.

I have no idea what Prism Rail might have offered,but I personally have little doubt that the initial years of the franchise would have been truly shocking, with little investment or maintenance of the existing fleet. The franchise would then have passed to National Express, as did the other Prism Rail franchises following takeover, before any new trains were to be seen.

I think that with this in mind, with Virgin it was better the devil you know...
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The only other 125mph DMU design for the British loading gauge available since privatisation is the 180, which are quite a bit more comfortable than Voyagers but a lot less reliable.

Though Virgin were originally proposing to use single ended class 67s and 4-car rakes of new build coaching stock, being offered by Bombardier, alongside 4-car tilting Voyagers.

If the Crosscountry franchise had actually taken delivery of these 4-car loco hauled sets, I wonder whether so many observers would still be singing the praises of loco hauled coaching stock so highly.

 

[higthomas]

Though Virgin were originally proposing to use single ended class 67s and 4-car rakes of new build coaching stock, being offered by Bombardier, alongside 4-car tilting Voyagers.

If the Crosscountry franchise had actually taken delivery of these 4-car loco hauled sets, I wonder whether so many observers would still be singing the praises of loco hauled coaching stock so highly.

Do you know what changed their minds?

 

[Bright Boy]

For the second of your complaints, some of us would consider that an advantage.

Well Said, lets hope the sockets stop working then we wont have the lap top prats taking up all the tables and seats with their gear

 

[The Planner]

That's probably because when all the timings were tightened up for "operation Princess" in 2002, the timetable fell apart for several months. They were then eased out drastically and as far as I know haven't been tightened up since.

I wouldnt be so sure about that, there are an abundance of Princess running times still used.

 

[Fishplate84]

I'm with Mark62 on this one.
Terrible things in my view. Designed by the railway for the railway and no thought for the passenger. I actively plan my travel to avoid these and always use East Coast to avoid the pendolino's for the same reason.

Cramped to the point of ridiculousness by being too short and of a stupidly narrow profile. This obsession with shorter journey times misses the point entirely in my view. Best trains ever on the network were the GNER 373s (Eurostars). I'm sure they were expensive to run but they give SPACE! I'd gladly sit for 45 minutes longer on one of those and enjoy the comfort and relaxation / room to work, and probably pay a premium for it, than be cramped elbow to elbow in the beancan voyagers for a marginally shorter time but almost none of it enjoyable or very productive.

I just hope the IEP designers haven't made the same misguided decisions for long distance trains.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I just hope the IEP designers haven't made the same misguided decisions for long distance trains.

With the railways being privately owned and for profit, I would guessed they will be set up to cram as many in as is humanly possible.

You can't blame them for that. They have shareholders to please.

 

[ainsworth74]

With the railways being privately owned and for profit, I would guessed they will be set up to cram as many in as is humanly possible.

You can't blame them for that. They have shareholders to please.

Other than the fact that the DfT was the lead on procurement for IEP and has basically told the railway 'this is the train your getting, end of discussion'...

 

[edwin_m]

Other than the fact that the DfT was the lead on procurement for IEP and has basically told the railway 'this is the train your getting, end of discussion'...

The operators do get to specify the interiors though.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Other than the fact that the DfT was the lead on procurement for IEP and has basically told the railway 'this is the train your getting, end of discussion'...

I thought the train interiors were down to the TOCS and the ROSCos

 

[ainsworth74]

The only interior designs seen so far were specified by the DfT.

 

[edwin_m]

The only interior designs seen so far were specified by the DfT.

Yes, but I believe the winning bidders for GW and EC have the chance to change this before it is finalised. In the case of GW it may be the interim franchise not the long-term one - I'm tempted to think that if it's the current management they will be looking for ways of getting more seats in.

 

[sprinterguy]

Do you know what changed their minds?

I'm not at all sure - All I know is that from announcing a fleet replacement consisting of 36 class 67/1 locos, 140 carriages and 43 x 4-car tilting Voyagers in March 1998, by December 1998 this had metamorphosed into the Voyager fleet we all now know and regularly debate so hotly.

Perhaps Bombardier were able to offer a cheaper deal on an all DMU fleet?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Other than the fact that the DfT was the lead on procurement for IEP and has basically told the railway 'this is the train your getting, end of discussion'...

...and it was the SRA that forced Virgin away from their "Challenger" HST refurbishment, which was intended to cover the busiest peak trains out of Birmingham.

The Insanely Expensive Project trains will be horrendous plasticky rubbish, if the 395 is anything to go by. But they've been designed by committee not by railway people and certainly not by the TOCs.

 

[MarkyT]

I'm not at all sure - All I know is that from announcing a fleet replacement consisting of 36 class 67/1 locos, 140 carriages and 43 x 4-car tilting Voyagers in March 1998, by December 1998 this had metamorphosed into the Voyager fleet we all now know and regularly debate so hotly.

Perhaps Bombardier were able to offer a cheaper deal on an all DMU fleet?

I think there was also the issue of track access charges being higher for locomotive hauled trains.

 

[Blindtraveler]

We all know the issues with Voyagers. As to a mistake (or not) despite the new TT at the time they needed to all be 6 or 7 coaches and many of them 8 as the point of replacing perfectly good and usable, if a tad unreliable coaches was to make the immage of rail travel sexy and a serious alternative to anything else. This plan worked numbers rose and many punters have stayed with the railways. Its a little unfortunate that 15 years on the same trains that brought a whole new travel experience to the network when new, are turning people away from it now due to the many issues mentioned here and in other threads, you only have to look at the success of Megabus.com and others to see how punters travel habbits have changed.

Im sure someone will be along shortly to point out that Megabus is a slow, road based alternative etc etc etc however what we all know on here is that what people want most these days is a seat, followed by a plug and an internet connection and for a value for money price. The railways are, regardless of stock used struggling to offer this, not helped by the Voyagers and I hope the 800s woant be the same. In short, a long term mistake was made with the voyagers and I hope lessons have been learned and that an unfortunate president has not been set.

 

[rdeez]

I travel on voyagers a lot, and although they're not my favourite, I've never considered them particularly uncomfortable or noisy. XC's are, as others have said, in pretty desperate need of a refurb, but other than that I have few issues with the units themselves. Toilet smell doesn't seem to be as big an issue as it was, though from time to time I still notice it at coach ends.

Interestingly, the one time thus far I've travelled on an XC HST, I found that to be a more unpleasant ride - the door to the vestibule was broken, so that it kept sliding partially open and closed as the train turned and there was a lot of rattling going on from the interior fixtures. Though probably I was just unlucky and got the one carriage sorely in need of maintenance at the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Insanely Expensive Project trains will be horrendous plasticky rubbish, if the 395 is anything to go by. But they've been designed by committee not by railway people and certainly not by the TOCs.

I don't think the Class 395 is "horrendous plasticky rubbish" at all, it's a nice unit, and very well-built. Quite resemblent of the Class 350/1.

And I think the proposed IEP interiors look very nice - almost DB ICE standard.

Neil

 

[fowler9]

The Voyagers whilst nicer than the Pendolinos are still horrible in my personal opinion. I don't think the sewage smell has got any better, maybe younger people are used to it or have grown used to it, they stink. In a country with a growing population providing shorter trains was lunacy. And then there is the having a massive diesel engine under you bum. Again perhaps younger people are used to it or have grown used to it. Oh and the interior was designed by someone who never has to travel on one and the exterior isn't much prettier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Voyagers whilst nicer than the Pendolinos are still horrible in my personal opinion. I don't think the sewage smell has got any better, maybe younger people are used to it or have grown used to it, they stink. In a country with a growing population providing shorter trains was lunacy. And then there is the having a massive diesel engine under you bum. Again perhaps younger people are used to it or have grown used to it. Oh and the interior was designed by someone who never has to travel on one and the exterior isn't much prettier.

I find the engine noise is barely noticeable once moving; it's more of a rumble that sounds a bit like track noise.

Neil

 

[fowler9]

I find the engine noise is barely noticeable once moving; it's more of a rumble that sounds a bit like track noise.

Neil

Fair enough mate. I am more than happy if you like them and find the engine noise unobtrusive. I have more issues with them than just noise. Plus like I said maybe you are younger than me and it is all you have ever known. I don't despise them, I just don't really like them. In years to come I'm not going to be paying to go on a Voyager railtour or splashing cash to save one.