Using East London Line for + 'cross-London' journeys

[JonathanH]

I travelled today from Reigate to Bryn on an Advance ticket routed +VWC+CONNECTIONS.

I was booked on the 0807 from Euston to Liverpool (the only reservable train on my journey and decided to use the following connections.

0534 Reigate to Redhill
0607 Redhill to New Cross Gate
0646 New Cross Gate to Whitechapel
Hammersmith & City Line to Euston Square

I did not have any print of the booked journey schedule with me. For the record, I suspect these were not the 'booked trains'.

On board the London Overground train I encountered two revenue protection inspectors.

The inspector stated that my ticket was not valid for travel via Whitechapel stating that only tickets routed +Uxxx (where x denotes London fare zones) are valid for 'cross-London' interchange using the East London Line.

His argument was that I should have taken a National Rail train from New Cross Gate to London Bridge and travelled solely via zone 1 underground interchanges.

My understanding is that Whitechapel is a valid point for changing to the underground as part of a cross-London journey.

Notwithstanding the fact that I wasn't on my booked connection on an Advance ticket which is an infringement of the Rules of such tickets, it seems odd that the East London Line can not be used as part of a 'cross-London journey between points outside London.

I was not charged a penalty fare but the inspector did use his phone to take a picture of the ticket and warned me not to use the East London line for such a journey in the future.

Ignoring the fact that it was an Advance ticket (as that played no part in his argument) was I actually off-route?

 

[CyrusWuff]

My gut instinct is that you weren't on a mapped route between Reigate and the London routeing group after leaving New Cross Gate. Looking at mileages, however:

Reigate - Redhill - Victoria - Euston is 22.75 miles according to the eNRT (Table 186)
Reigate - Redhill - London Bridge - Euston is 22.5 miles
Reigate - Redhill - New Cross Gate - Whitechapel - Euston Square is 23 miles

Having said that, I can't get either the Chiltern implementation of WebTIS or NRES to offer me a journey via Whitechapel...

 

[Clip]

Im struggling to understand why you would go via Whitechapel in the first place however saying that I would say its valid without me checking but the LO is a wonderful quandary of things that are not right.

 

[yorkie]

I travelled today from Reigate to Bryn on an Advance ticket routed +VWC+CONNECTIONS.

I was booked on the 0807 from Euston to Liverpool (the only reservable train on my journey and decided to use the following connections.

0534 Reigate to Redhill
0607 Redhill to New Cross Gate
0646 New Cross Gate to Whitechapel
Hammersmith & City Line to Euston Square

I did not have any print of the booked journey schedule with me. For the record, I suspect these were not the 'booked trains'.

Your booked train was from Euston to Liverpool.

On board the London Overground train I encountered two revenue protection inspectors.

Ah. Yes, I've heard a lot about LO revenue protection inspectors, and the lack of intelligence/knowledge/courtesy of the inspectors encountered (maybe they're not all like that, but your experience is consistent with that of some other people I know....).

The inspector stated that my ticket was not valid for travel via Whitechapel stating that only tickets routed +Uxxx (where x denotes London fare zones) are valid for 'cross-London' interchange using the East London Line.

I wonder where that "rule" is documented?!

I think he made it up, which is consistent with experiences of some other forum members of such individuals.

His argument was that I should have taken a National Rail train from New Cross Gate to London Bridge and travelled solely via zone 1 underground interchanges.

I've been told about several of the arguments that they use, some of them are quite amusing.

My understanding is that Whitechapel is a valid point for changing to the underground as part of a cross-London journey.

Agreed.

Notwithstanding the fact that I wasn't on my booked connection on an Advance ticket which is an infringement of the Rules of such ticket

Your ticket is valid by the booked train(s) and appropriate connecting services. If it was only valid on the booked train from Euston, it would not be valid/issued from Redhill!

, it seems odd that the East London Line can not be used as part of a 'cross-London journey between points outside London.

They made that up.

I was not charged a penalty fare

The rules don't allow them to, though they aren't the sort to follow the rules so I wouldn't trust them.

but the inspector did use his phone to take a picture of the ticket and warned me not to use the East London line for such a journey in the future.

They really don't like their customers, and yes I know other people who have been given the 'warning' (when travelling on perfectly valid tickets) too!

Ignoring the fact that it was an Advance ticket (as that played no part in his argument) was I actually off-route?

Nope, but experiences of LO inspectors and gateline staff suggest they don't adhere to the rules. Just getting them to admit they're a National Rail TOC is a huge battle!

 

[swt_passenger]

In the general case (so ignoring whether your initial route to Whitechapel was OK); Whitechapel is definitely on the ATOC list of stations for transfer between NR and LU anyway. That shows cross London transfer through Whitechapel must be valid for some journeys - I guess LO staff just don't understand plain English.

 

[Clip]

In the general case (so ignoring whether your initial route to Whitechapel was OK); Whitechapel is definitely on the ATOC list of stations for transfer between NR and LU anyway. That shows cross London transfer through Whitechapel must be valid for some journeys - I guess LO staff just don't understand plain English.

They just don't understand. They are purely 'we're TfL and not National rail so nowt matters.

Ive had a run in with a few of them before - mainly because I fumble out both Oysters and they question it to hell. Also I was at Norwood Jnt the other day and they were telling passengers to get the National Rail service on the tannoy!! Its almost like the biggest operator there doesn't exist!!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I wanted to buy a Ranger from an LO ticket office recently who told me to visit a National Rail station. This was at a station that Southern serve....

 

[RJ]

Im struggling to understand why you would go via Whitechapel in the first place however saying that I would say its valid without me checking but the LO is a wonderful quandary of things that are not right.

That's a nice way of summing it up

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe it to be valid, for the reasons CyrusWuff mentions. You can see the list of approved Crossing London interchanges on this NRE page under the 'Crossing London' heading

It is not the route that I would have instinctively chosen, but I can see why you might want to avoid the busy crowded deep-level tube.

Also, as someone who has had the misfortune of being delayed by 30 mins by LO RPIs for trying to stop short on a season ticket on the shortest route, I sympathise with you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They just don't understand. They are purely 'we're TfL and not National rail so nowt matters.

The section of the ELL that was formerly LU is, as I understand it, technically not part of the National Rail network (station signs on that section, and that section only - don't carry the double arrow, for instance) - so he might actually be right.

Neil

 

[causton]

I wanted to buy a Ranger from an LO ticket office recently who told me to visit a National Rail station. This was at a station that Southern serve....

Really?

I've been told they don't issue rovers, then been told they don't issue Priv rovers but can issue 16-25 discounted ones, then told it doesn't work, then tried another station which did issue it but I could clearly see the Priv option in the discount list near 16-25!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Really?

I've been told they don't issue rovers, then been told they don't issue Priv rovers but can issue 16-25 discounted ones, then told it doesn't work, then tried another station which did issue it but I could clearly see the Priv option in the discount list near 16-25!

Ah, rovers from LO...... I didn't have your problem last time. The clerk asked me what to type in the discount box.

 

[Hadders]

The section of the ELL that was formerly LU is, as I understand it, technically not part of the National Rail network (station signs on that section, and that section only - don't carry the double arrow, for instance) - so he might actually be right.

Neil

You've fallen for TFL's publicity hook, line and sinker as that's what they want everyone to think.

In fact they're absolutely part of the National Rail Network.

www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

APPENDIX C

LIST OF TRAIN COMPANIES TO WHICH THE NATIONAL RAIL CONDITIONS OF CARRIAGE APPLY AS AT MAY 2012

...

London Overground Rail Operations Limited

...

 

[bicbasher]

It's going to be hell for passengers during the London Bridge disruption from LO stations that have Southern services to London Bridge to connect with Waterloo East and Charing Cross as some passengers may think they can use the Canada Water route on the ELL as an alternative route to reach those stations.

As far as I'm aware, the Southern London Terminals seasons are NOT valid via Canada Water during the works from mid January (although the Xmas works are I think?). According to a friend who attended the Lewisham Transport committee meeting recently, the LO rep didn't even know himself if those tickets would be allowed as a reasonable route.

Personally, I think LOROL's RPI's will do a blitz on Southern customers who attempt to use the ELL and Jubilee as an alternative route.

 

[Mojo]

The section of the ELL that was formerly LU is, as I understand it, technically not part of the National Rail network (station signs on that section, and that section only - don't carry the double arrow, for instance) - so he might actually be right.

And also, all Overground stations only have the roundel and not the double arrow unless they are also served by trains of another Toc (eg. Shepherds Bush). There may be a few others out there with legacy signage but there's plenty of stations that only have the Overground roundel.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think that in the core section of former LU line, and the re-opened bit up to Dalston Jn (more accurately the west curve connection point) some LO staff must be confused by the difference between 'Network Rail' and 'National Rail'. The track and stations aren't part of the former, but the TOC itself is part of the latter.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I've had Advance tickets from "the north" to S London, where the itinerary given when booking was: change from East Coast at Stevenage into an electric (from Cambridge?) bound for KX as far as Finsbury Park, then a Moorgate train as far as Highbury & Islington and then East London Overground to Peckham Rye.
I did it that way for novelty value, but there were no inspectors to confuse things.

 

[maniacmartin]

I've had Advance tickets from "the north" to S London, where the itinerary given when booking was: change from East Coast at Stevenage into an electric (from Cambridge?) bound for KX as far as Finsbury Park, then a Moorgate train as far as Highbury & Islington and then East London Overground to Peckham Rye.
I did it that way for novelty value, but there were no inspectors to confuse things.

Now that Canada Water has finally been added to the approved list of interchanges for Crossing London, you'll find those itineraries (which used to appear a lot) become much rarer

 

[Clip]

And also, all Overground stations only have the roundel and not the double arrow unless they are also served by trains of another Toc (eg. Shepherds Bush). There may be a few others out there with legacy signage but there's plenty of stations that only have the Overground roundel.

Norwood Junction has both up and that's where the problem was.

He could've at least said 'Southern'

 

[island]

It's going to be hell for passengers during the London Bridge disruption from LO stations that have Southern services to London Bridge to connect with Waterloo East and Charing Cross as some passengers may think they can use the Canada Water route on the ELL as an alternative route to reach those stations.

As far as I'm aware, the Southern London Terminals seasons are NOT valid via Canada Water during the works from mid January (although the Xmas works are I think?). According to a friend who attended the Lewisham Transport committee meeting recently, the LO rep didn't even know himself if those tickets would be allowed as a reasonable route.

Personally, I think LOROL's RPI's will do a blitz on Southern customers who attempt to use the ELL and Jubilee as an alternative route.

It isn't a valid route but ticket gates don't know that. Only if an RPI block was involved would there be an issue.

 

[bicbasher]

It isn't a valid route but ticket gates don't know that. Only if an RPI block was involved would there be an issue.

Some of my fellow regular commuters on that line have already decided to go via Canada Water regardless of the validity.

Those trains in the peaks are already crammed to the rafters, so if LO decide to do a block, it may be an issue at Canada Water where congestion to the Jubilee line from the direct escalator from the northbound ELL platform would be an issue where it can take until the next train to pull in to get passengers down as it is.

Personally I'll be sticking to using Southern and changing at London Bridge where I'll get a seat for the majority of the journey.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Saw a notice at London Bridge this morning informing passengers who travel on the Anerley - London Bridge corridor that they are able to travel on LO to Canada Water and change to Jubilee to London Bridge/Waterloo.

 

[Clip]

Saw a notice at London Bridge this morning informing passengers who travel on the Anerley - London Bridge corridor that they are able to travel on LO to Canada Water and change to Jubilee to London Bridge/Waterloo.

This morning I did see an LO train advertised form the south as only going to Canada water. Did they lay on some extras or something? Is there a crossover near there to turn it? Cant see anything on RTT about it.

 

[DeparturesBeck]

There are crossovers south of Canada Water, north of Shadwell, and between Haggerston & Dalston Junction.

 

[maniacmartin]

They've turned around some trains at Canada Water in the past during London Bridge engineering works, so its not unprecedented.

 

[bb21]

This morning I did see an LO train advertised form the south as only going to Canada water. Did they lay on some extras or something? Is there a crossover near there to turn it? Cant see anything on RTT about it.

Appears to be STPs such as this one (and a few others).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Appears to be STPs such as this one (and a few others).

To cope with extra peak demand perhaps...

 

[LLivery]

The staff for LO are just not brilliant to say the least. I encountered RPIs the other day and all I did was show him my railcard. I don't think he even realised that I never showed him a ticket! (I did have one by the way). Plenty of LO staff just don't understand the rail network at all. One at a Southern served station couldn't even find Durrington-on-Sea on the system, while another said to a lady "I think the reason you had trouble" getting your advance ticket from the ticket machine is that this isn't a "National Rail station". Just how TfL have managed to get away with all this rubbish for this long baffles me daily.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The section of the ELL that was formerly LU is, as I understand it, technically not part of the National Rail network (station signs on that section, and that section only - don't carry the double arrow, for instance) - so he might actually be right.

Neil

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45801463@N05/13844281175/in/set-72157624242912035
As you can see from the link above, Penge West doesn't even boast the Double Arrow! Explain that one!

 

[yorkie]

.... Just how TfL have managed to get away with all the rubbish for this long baffles me daily.

You're spot on. And plenty of us are unhappy with LO, but what can we do about it?

There's no effective regulator and proper ombudsman with any real powers.

A knowledgeable, proactive passenger watchdog with some powers would be useful too...!

 

[PermitToTravel]

To be fair to the staff, I don't think their training makes it very clear whether they're underground or NR staff, and I don't think many of them have been told that they *are* a TOC. It can result in them saying hilarious things at times, like telling people at Harrow & Wealdstone or at Imperial Wharf that they need to visit a National Rail station