Suggestions for suitable devices for use by gateline staff

[fairysdad]

Mods' note: split from Odd incident at Paddington

I believe that Avantix can display what specific restrictions are so it might make more sense to ensure that gateline staff have access to an Avantix.

There are barely enough Avantix to go around as it is. . . . . They are old kit, based on old technology, and are slowly wearing out. I would be very surprised if they are still being made. They are leased from ATOS, I believe, and cost a fortune.

Get some cheap Android tablets, locked down so that it only has access to what it needs and go from there.

Or is that too sensible?

 

[bb21]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Probably cheaper than issuing them with Avantix machines too.

 

[reb0118]

Get some cheap Android tablets, locked down so that it only has access to what it needs and go from there.

I believe guards will soon be issued with tablets for retail & operational purposes. Some are being trialled as we speak. I can not see it as being too difficult to get a few more for each barrier line - that said these staff come under different budgetary control...........

Or is that too sensible?

Probably not.

How much time and effort did it take to get that £72 though?
I bet if you worked out the hourly rate it wouldnt be very high!

Hi 455. Is this referring to a post on another thread? Viz:-

 

[maniacmartin]

Even cheap ebook readers would be better than nothing - and their batteries last ages

 

[dgl]

I wouldn't use anything apple or andriod related, android is too much of a security hole and apple change their standards whenever they feel like it.
A locked down windows tablet would be a much better idea esp. as they support ordinary usb hardware (even the RT ones).

 

[sor]

I wouldn't use anything apple or andriod related, android is too much of a security hole and apple change their standards whenever they feel like it.
A locked down windows tablet would be a much better idea esp. as they support ordinary usb hardware (even the RT ones).

Android doesn't have to be "a security hole" - it could be locked down appropriately so that all it can do is run the ticketing application and wiped/locked if it's lost or stolen - and Android devices can support USB hardware (with the use of a cheap adaptor)

Windows tablets are arguably even more of a "security hole" if not locked down in the same manner, and RT would add more hassle and cost as you have to pay MS for permission to develop and install apps on those tablets

 

[najaB]

...Android devices can support USB hardware (with the use of a cheap adaptor)...

Many don't even need an adaptor, just the appropriate cable.

 

[carriageline]

I have been in plenty of shops that use iPhones as a retailing device (with a separate chip pin either bluetoothed or on the back of the device)

Surely give all the guards iphones as company phones then use them as ticket machines


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dgl]

In all fairness an apple device is quite expensive esp. if the device gets lost and while android can be locked down it is still based on open source software and the problems that introduces, also both ios and android is that they are not really designed that well for business.
The new windows phones can be brought for next to nothing, a good quality 4.7" device (admitiddly with only a WVGA screen) can be had for about £100 and can easily be linked to a company account that allows the company to easily control what goes on. they also have built in device tracking and remote locking/erasing. The operating system is very efficient (much more so than ios and android) and so battery life is generally longer.
With the tiles on the start screen you could set them up so that you just have a screen with all the allowed apps on the main screen (with the more important one at the top) and even have them displaying travel updates (disruption etc.) that automatically update.
Also if maps would be useful the built in maps app supports downloadable maps reside on the device and do not require a network connection to work.
And as they are essentially an updated version of what they already use (although the base operating system is based on NT rather than CE) this should help with the adapting/updating of the advantix software to work on them.

 

[najaB]

...while android can be locked down it is still based on open source software and the problems that introduces...

Posted this on the original thread: Exactly what problems would those be?

 

[BestWestern]

Forgive the pedantry, but this is constant - the ticket issuing machines currently in use are named Avantix - note, there is no 'd' in the name; though I concede it's understandable why many might assume there is.

To reference a previous post, yes they do cost a fortune! I'll happily repeat previous rants and suggest that they are a prime example of why it really costs an outrageous amount to run the railway; third party suppliers who thoroughly take the p*ss, and stupid contracts which allow them to do so with impunity (not, amazingly, paying wages to all those evil Guards who are bleeding the industry dry...). The sooner the outdated, unreliable Avantix is sent to a skip, the better. TOCs are royally fleeced by a certain large contractor who supply and maintain this life expired rubbish, and they would save a huge amount by developing a superior alternative based on a far newer generic platform, which can be maintained and administered without the 'licence to print money' tactics currently suffered.

 

[DownSouth]

Apple devices can be locked down just as well as Android or Windows devices. Their tailored professional solutions are developed by an Apple-IBM partnership and generally branded as IBM if they involve hardware changes.

 

[thelongestroad]

Tasers and pepper spray?


Oh...

 

[user15681]

To give an example, Southeastern will be deploying a large number of tablets to Gateline staff and all train crew by the end of July 2015. The ones given to Gateline will have software on it capable of showing real time running information, whilst those given to train crew will also have this real time running software, as well as a record of training, copy of the rule book and anything else handy to have. All to improve comms between employees and information to passengers.

So it is happening, tablets do seem to be the way forward. And I don't think it'd be unrealistic to foresee things like restrictions being put on tablets eventually. I haven't a clue which type are being looked at/being used, nor which are most appropriate.

 

[WatcherZero]

Surely though the tablet would still have to be capable of printing a ticket, either your back to a custom hardware solution or your ticket gate staff are constantly having to run into the office to get the tickets they wirelessly printed.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Surely though the tablet would still have to be capable of printing a ticket, either your back to a custom hardware solution or your ticket gate staff are constantly having to run into the office to get the tickets they wirelessly printed.

Could they not modify one of the gateline gates, to include a ticket printer that could connect up over a secured wireless link with their tablets. Hopefully their tablets would have cameras so that if they have any issues with tickets presented to them they could take a photo and send the photo to some help desk.

 

[Daz28]

Avantix machines are no longer available for new supply and the existing machines will no longer be supported after April 2016. I would imagine that TOCs have already begun the procurement exercise to replace them.

 

[dgl]

Posted this on the original thread: Exactly what problems would those be?

essentially the problem with open source is that is can be based on so many components from so many sources that trying to find problems if they arise can be a bit of a nightmare.
At least with the ios/WP approach you have primarily software from one source, also have the advantage of set device minimum specification so hardware performance can be more or less guaranteed.
Look at the problems we had recently with openSSL it was a massive security hole until it was updated, Microsoft's version, however, was fine.

As for connecting printers and suchlike, all tablet/desktop versions of windows (including RT) support it natively. and it behaves just like normal windows.

For something that is probably going to have to last years and is going to be expected to be supported by the manufacturer I can't see why an apple device would ever be suitable.

 

[route:oxford]

For ticket analysis, surely "Google Glass" is a better option?

That way there is no faffing around and the staff can focus on the customer whilst GG analyses paper tickets and reports any rule issues. RFID tickets can be tapped onto a reader about the person of the staff with reporting to GG.

Every pair of glasses would be a security camera too to protect staff against accusations of inappropriate content.

Just need to take them off when you go to the loo.

 

[Clip]

For ticket analysis, surely "Google Glass" is a better option?

That way there is no faffing around and the staff can focus on the customer whilst GG analyses paper tickets and reports any rule issues. RFID tickets can be tapped onto a reader about the person of the staff with reporting to GG.

Every pair of glasses would be a security camera too to protect staff against accusations of inappropriate content.

Just need to take them off when you go to the loo.

LOL a grands worth of eyewear against a 50 note tablet - I think I know which will win there.

 

[Hyphen]

essentially the problem with open source is that is can be based on so many components from so many sources that trying to find problems if they arise can be a bit of a nightmare.

Said like a true MSVP (or whatever they're called today). It does rather sound like you've drank the propaganda that the big computing corps roll out every time one of their clients suggests moving to FOSS.

Look at the problems we had recently with openSSL it was a massive security hole until it was updated, Microsoft's version, however, was fine.

The Heartbleed bug was quite a considerable and worrying issue, I won't deny that. But one bug does not render an entire platform problematic. (Heck, if it did, nobody would exactly use Windows, would they?)

There was a crucial difference in the way the FOSS community handled this bug over the way Microsoft handles many hundreds (thousands?) of bugs a year. The FOSS community were honest and upfront about the issue, and publicised the problem to the people who were in a position to do something about the systems they administer. They immediately had both a patch for existing versions and a fixed newer version available for people, depending how their local policies handle change/versioning.

Compare this to Microsoft. They receive notification of major bugs from various sources. Their usual response is to sit on it for a few days before developing a bugfix package. They then continue to sit on the problem, remaining very quiet in the hope nobody notices, until Patch Tuesday. That could well be an entire month of systems being vulnerable until your patch gets to you! There have been examples in the past of people waiting until the day after Patch Tuesday to release 0-day attacks, knowing it'll be another month before Microsoft roll out a fix.

Perhaps the openness and honesty of the FOSS community was misinterpreted by those who prefer closed source, simply because they otherwise wouldn't expect a software creator to be honest?

I should also point out Android never used the affected version of OpenSSL.

 

[carriageline]

What I said about phones was mostly showing what tech is out there. Plus, if you can combine it with a guards company phone that's 2 birds one stone. Provide them with some sort of wireless printer that can be carried on their shoulder, then everything can be printed.

You also solve the offline payment issue (providing the device has data coverage, even connect them to suitable trains wifi?) and they should be able to sell tickets in an 'offline' mode too.

Even if they bought wireless only iPads (other tablets are available) they could connect it to onboard wifi on the train.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dgl]

I'm not in any way involved with Microsoft and in all fairness have some experience with most operating systems including various versions of OSX, most versions of windows and windows mobile/PPC, MS-DOS, a couple of Linux flavours, BEOS, Solaris (8/10), RISC OS and had an android phone for a bit (did IT at college, has acorns at 3 schools (and on a raspberry pi.)

While it is true that the idea of open source software is a good thing there will always be times where a fully engineered private solution is the best.

Also from a user operating standpoint I see WP as the easiest device to use, esp. if someone is not that ofay with smartphones.

And, I suppose, at least with paid software you have more right to complain when something goes wrong.

 

[Class 170101]

Tasers and pepper spray?


Oh...

When I saw the title of this thread I thought that was what this was about

 

[Hyphen]

I'm not in any way involved with Microsoft and in all fairness have some experience with most operating systems including various versions of OSX, most versions of windows and windows mobile/PPC, MS-DOS, a couple of Linux flavours, BEOS, Solaris (8/10), RISC OS and had an android phone for a bit (did IT at college, has acorns at 3 schools (and on a raspberry pi.)

Ahh, fair enough, and sorry for the accusation. In my line of work (I'm an IT Manager in private healthcare) I come across far too many people who hold a piece of paper from Microsoft and therefore believe they know everything Most of these people crumble when you present them with a 'real world' problem (even a Windows one!), and wouldn't have a clue where to start when it comes to implementing a solution to an issue where just buying a piece of software isn't an option.

When conducting interviews I like to throw a couple of 'curveball' questions at people - I will ask them to describe how they would theoretically implement a solution I've implemented in the past, such as home-built SMS appointment reminder messages, or patient bedroom telephone billing. During these interviews I was keen that candidates knew the software products available for the source data, but that they didn't need to describe any particular technology or software product to create the solution - I was more interested in their ability to solve problems.

(I did once hold a round of interviews where one of the questions was "How many golf balls can you fit in a bus?" - the correct answer was "How big is the bus?")

While it is true that the idea of open source software is a good thing there will always be times where a fully engineered private solution is the best.

I suppose this is true in some cases - there's no open-source equivalent to Exchange Server and how it ties in with Outlook - despite many attempts from the FOSS community over the years. Microsoft are also very good with their development tools/environments and their live tie-ins/debugging with things like Windows Mobile (I have no experience with modern Windows Phone!) and XBox.

However, I do quite often find that for certain (niche) things, especially in my sector, out-the-box tools are either very hard to come by, require a lot of tweaking for our setup, or are otherwise just insanely expensive. And quite often I find it's better to roll our own (usually on a Linux box!) - even when we factor in the potential risk of lack of support the home-grown solution ends up looking better.

I'm horrendously off-topic now, so I shall be quiet

 

[sor]

While it is true that the idea of open source software is a good thing there will always be times where a fully engineered private solution is the best.

Which could easily be based on open source software. It's not as if the expectation is for each TOC to run to carphone warehouse and buy whatever they have on the shelves, but that some competent organisation would be able to provide a locked-down device running the appropriate OS. This firm would have to do extensive testing and support on whatever the OS of choice is.

In terms of supplying a device that is designed for ticketing only, Android probably has the edge here - WP and iOS aren't as customisable, and isn't subject to MS/Apple's 18 month upgrade cycle

In a former job I helped to support a very expensive proprietary product that ran on an open source OS. Several members of the development team were dedicated to tweaking and testing the underlying OS for the applications that we ran on it. With Windows that'd be much more difficult.

Also from a user operating standpoint I see WP as the easiest device to use, esp. if someone is not that ofay with smartphones.

Given WP's woeful market share, it's likely that the train staff who will be using the finished product are going to be used to either iOS or Android from owning a smartphone or tablet - and I would assume that any new product would require some training anyway, rather than just giving the new devices to the guards and hoping for the best.

And, I suppose, at least with paid software you have more right to complain when something goes wrong.

Companies like Red Hat get a lot of their income from supporting what is primarily open source software for much more important and business critical tasks than ticket sales, and even stodgier firms like IBM are moving more and more in that direction. I'd assume that an "avantix 2" would be supplied and supported by someone who has the competency to back it up with good support and service.

 

[Muzer]

Indeed, the problem mentioned, that you have components from multiple sources, is most usually solved by having one company package it all up for you and manage things for you when things break. Home users do this too - it's called a distribution (but obviously a professional user would want to pay a company to do this, to gain more of an assurance that things will actually work).

 

[noddingdonkey]

Surely this is all about solving the wrong problem.

If staff need a device on which to look up the restrictions on a ticket, the restrictions should be unenforceable because the passenger has no hope of knowing what is and isn't covered by the restriction.

 

[najaB]

If staff need a device on which to look up the restrictions on a ticket, the restrictions should be unenforceable because the passenger has no hope of knowing what is and isn't covered by the restriction.

"I'm not guilty of drink driving because there's no easy way for me to know the limit." :roll:

 

[talldave]

A brain??