Revenue Protection Officer Incident

[pandabear]

First time post, bit of an odd one. I work in Derby, live in Nottingham, get the train every now and then from Notts to Derby. On the way back today, I purchased a ticket from Derby to Beeston (I hadn't needed a return as I'd been presenting in Nottingham in the morning and a colleague had given me a lift back to Derby to work the rest of the day there) as I was going to see my girlfriend. A few minutes before I'm about to get off, she calls and says she's been called into work (she's a nurse, works odd shifts when needed) and so I stay on the train til Nottingham to go home. I looked up the extra fare on my phone app, it was £2, but I couldn't find the ticket guy on the train and had all my bags and laptop with me so didn't want to leave them unattended to search for him.

On the way out of the station, see the RPO's and tell them I haven't paid from Beeston to Nottingham, please can I do so here. A couple of them look on their computers and then one lady suddenly pulls me to one side and starts formally interviewing me, saying it needs to be done. Takes down my driving license number, full address, ticket number (from Derby to Beeston) and takes a full log of how the journey panned out and why I didn't pay the extra £2.

She didn't give me a penalty fare or anything like that, seemed to sympathise with me in fact and said she wishes I'd bought the extra ticket on board (as I now couldn't give her the difference for some reason). I then ask what happens with all the information I've just given and she said she has to formally write it up and I'll get a letter.

Bit concerned about what's going to happen now and was after some advice. Whenever I travel I always buy a whole day ticket and have always paid my fares when I've not driven to work. I know it's technically my fault today, and I certainly seem to have caught them on a bad day, but what can/is likely to happen given the circumstances?

 

[Clip]

Best to wait for the letter from EMT and see what they say. There was a thread about someone doing the same a while back but cant remember the outcome.

Ideally you should've found the guard to get the extra bit to Notts but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[telstarbox]

Quite possible that the guard remained in the fab, it's only a few minutes between Beeston and Nottingham.

Can you give more details of your interview?

 

[bb21]

Which train did you catch? Was it a CrossCountry service or an EMT service?

 

[reb0118]

This is a very common occurrence on the railway and it generally goes by the term short-faring. Let us look at this from the perspective of the railway:-

• You had a ticket to Beeston.
• You alighted at Nottingham.
• The fare to Beeston is less than the fare to Nottingham.

I feel that the railway has enough evidence to successfully prosecute a case of fare evasion, if not via the RoRA 1889 then definitely via a less onerous byelaw offence. The byelaw offence is a statutory offence in that your guilt is proved merely by your inability to present a valid ticket when asked, no intent to avoid your fare is required. The benefit to the byelaw offence, unlike the RoRA, is that, and although both are criminal offences, it is non recordable.

All is not doom and gloom, however, let us look at this from your perspective:-

• You had a ticket to Beeston.
• You received a telephone call that required you to change your plans to now travel to Nottingham.
• In your opinion you did not have time, as you were already travelling, to purchase any additional tickets prior to your arrival at Nottingham.

Now thinking on this how can you prove that you received that call, is your girlfriend willing to provide a sworn statement in front of a notary public? Also, it may be to your advantage to obtain a note, on headed paper, to confirm the short notice of her shift change - her employer should be able to supply this.

What will happen?

Firstly, you should expect a letter from the revenue department asking you for your side of the situation. You should reply truthfully but also concisely (i.e. no waffle) explaining your actions. Enclose any details that will help to prove your defence (if any) and also state any mitigating factors. You should also state what you have learned from the experience and what you will do in the future to avoid situations like these.

What will happen next?

The company may accept your explanation and ask that you pay the fare due either with or without an administrative penalty. If this is the case, and you pay this timeously, then that is the matter closed.

If the company does not accept your explanation then it may ask for further clarification or inform you that it will report you for prosecution. In that case, unless you will be pleading guilty, legal advice should be sought. You can of course ask for further advice here prior to that occurence.

Although not easy, I would not worry too much at this stage as you should await the initial letter and see what that contains.



For the benefit of others reading this who find themselves in similar situations what would be the best advice?

On train of thought might be that if you have not be able to excess your original ticket prior to arrival at your original station then you should alight there and sort out a new ticket prior to continuing.

In this instance I feel the railway will look upon it as either one journey (Derby to Nottingham) where the passenger held a short fare ticket

Or,

Two separate journeys (Derby - Beeston; Beeston - Nottingham) where the passenger should have alighted at Beeston and sorted out his ticket for onward travel there.

I believe that all these services operate with a guard and that, of course, would have been another opportunity to excess the ticket as required.

 

[pandabear]

I caught the 16:40 CrossCountry from Derby. The questions she asked me were about my trip, how I ended up with a single from Derby, why I got off at Nottingham instead of Beeston and was it my intention to dodge fare.

I have since spoken to both CrossCountry (I asked about the procedure and of course offered to pay but they said it's nothing to do with them because EMT had the RPO there) and EMT customer services and the chap on the phone at EMT seemed bemused that she didn't just take the £2 off me seeing as I had asked where to pay the £2 and if I can pay it there and then before they even saw my ticket. Without even asking him he opened a case with EMT and someone today is calling me back to discuss it.

 

[Fare-Cop]

One of the most important questions that a well-trained RPI ought to have asked is for you to show the evidence of the received phone call on your mobile.

Did she ask you to do that?

 

[telstarbox]

The record of the incoming call wouldn't prove anything in itself though.

 

[cuccir]

The record of the incoming call wouldn't prove anything in itself though.

No but I suppose it might help inform whether or not to try and prosecute and under what legislation.

 

[ainsworth74]

Have you paid the extra fare yet?

 

[pandabear]

She didn't ask for evidence of anything, just asked me to sign my ticket, sign the interview statement told me she needs to keep both and I could go.

No I haven't paid the extra fare, CrossCountry said they couldn't deal with it as I mentioned above and EMT are due to ring me back today, heard nothing so far though.

 

[carriageline]

The record of the incoming call wouldn't prove anything in itself though.

No, but it's a useful tact to put pressure on someone. If they start flapping you can probably guess they are a little liar!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I caught the 16:40 CrossCountry from Derby. The questions she asked me were about my trip, how I ended up with a single from Derby, why I got off at Nottingham instead of Beeston and was it my intention to dodge fare.

I have since spoken to both CrossCountry (I asked about the procedure and of course offered to pay but they said it's nothing to do with them because EMT had the RPO there) and EMT customer services and the chap on the phone at EMT seemed bemused that she didn't just take the £2 off me seeing as I had asked where to pay the £2 and if I can pay it there and then before they even saw my ticket. Without even asking him he opened a case with EMT and someone today is calling me back to discuss it.

I'm not clear as to why it's anything to do with EMT if the travel was on CrossCountry, unless all EMT stations are compulsory ticket areas (are they?) Surely the EMT RPIs should just pass the details to CrossCountry's prosecution department for their consideration?

Neil

 

[reb0118]

I'm not clear as to why it's anything to do with EMT if the travel was on CrossCountry, unless all EMT stations are compulsory ticket areas (are they?) Surely the EMT RPIs should just pass the details to CrossCountry's prosecution department for their consideration?

Neil

Any authorised person on the railway can deal with such matters as far as I am aware. An example from my neck of the woods: there was a Cross Country service from Aberdeen to Plymouth that called at various stations in Fife en route to Edinburgh during the morning peak. This train was, I believe, eight coaches long and the guard used to struggle to check & collect all the fares prior to its arrival at Edinburgh. ScotRail provided revenue support for this service as the bulk of lost revenue would accrue to ScotRail in any case. Just because a passenger travels with TOC A is does not mean that TOC B does not have a valid reason to ensure that all revenue is collected. Over and above this there are often reciprocal agreements amongst TOCs to perform revenue blocks.

 

[trentside]

Any authorised person on the railway can deal with such matters as far as I am aware. An example from my neck of the woods: there was a Cross Country service from Aberdeen to Plymouth that called at various stations in Fife en route to Edinburgh during the morning peak. This train was, I believe, eight coaches long and the guard used to struggle to check & collect all the fares prior to its arrival at Edinburgh. ScotRail provided revenue support for this service as the bulk of lost revenue would accrue to ScotRail in any case. Just because a passenger travels with TOC A is does not mean that TOC B does not have a valid reason to ensure that all revenue is collected. Over and above this there are often reciprocal agreements amongst TOCs to perform revenue blocks.

Indeed. East Midlands Trains RPOs carry out blocks at Northern managed stations in South Yorkshire, such as Chapeltown and Meadowhall - of course they also carry out checks at EMT stations served by CrossCountry on a regular basis.

 

[Greenback]

Please can we keep this on topic? I doubt the OP is interested in a detailed discussion of the way the industry operates when ticketing irregularities are discovered.

If you want to continue the discussion, please start a new thread to do so. Thanks.

 

[455driver]

Please can we keep this on topic? I doubt the OP is interested in a detailed discussion of the way the industry operates when ticketing irregularities are discovered.

Especially as that very question has been answered 20 times but people still dont/wont get it!

If you want to continue the discussion, please start a new thread to do so. Thanks.

Agreed.

 

[RJ]

OP, were you advised to go back to Beeston at all? Your Derby to Beeston ticket was actually valid at Nottingham.

National Rail Enquires advertises that you may travel via Nottingham with that ticket - http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/DBY/BEE/tomorrow/1200/dep?via=Nottingham

As do the CrossCountry and EMT websites. None of them advertise any restriction on break of journey at Nottingham. It's only if you dig deep into the Routeing Guide, you might be able to apply a theory that you can only travel via Nottingham if changing onto a service to take you back to Beeston. Let's face it, who's actually expected to do that when there are journey planners that openly advocate the ticket's validity via Nottingham?

 

[pandabear]

OP, were you advised to go back to Beeston at all? Your Derby to Beeston ticket was actually valid at Nottingham, but only if changing onto a service to take you back to Beeston.

No, and this along with a few other things such as not being given my ticket back or advised what exactly is likely to happen has made me feel more uneasy about the entire thing as it unfolds further.

Does anyone know if EMT can stop this process and resolve it in another way should they choose, like the chap at EMT customer services suggested should happen when I phoned them last night?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OP, were you advised to go back to Beeston at all? Your Derby to Beeston ticket was actually valid at Nottingham.

National Rail Enquires advertises that you may travel via Nottingham with that ticket - http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/DBY/BEE/tomorrow/1200/dep?via=Nottingham

As do the CrossCountry and EMT websites. None of them advertise any restriction on break of journey at Nottingham. It's only if you dig deep into the Routeing Guide, you might be able to apply a theory that you can only travel via Nottingham if changing onto a service to take you back to Beeston. Let's face it, who's actually expected to do that when there are journey planners that openly advocate the ticket's validity via Nottingham?

If they had advised me to go back to Beeston I'm sure I could have managed that, it's just that I was given no other option when I was clearly owning up rather than being caught. It's a bitter pill to swallow if my ticket was actually valid via Nottingham as well. Do you think as a consequence of this I could perhaps use this information when speaking to EMT?

 

[quill]

Surely the ticket can't be valid from Nottm to Beeston if the train you have just got off had already stopped at Beeston?
I would be interested to know which of the three exits at Nottingham the OP attempted to use. If he exited via the main entrance, as an occasional station user he would have known that he would have been stopped at the barriers. This suggests to me a genuine intention to pay the excess. Exiting via either of the side exits doesn't as there are no barriers here and only the occasional presence of protection people.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did the train you were on stop at Beeston? If it did then your ticket is not valid at Nottingham, as validity ends when you reach your destination station.

 

[RJ]

Did the train you were on stop at Beeston? If it did then your ticket is not valid at Nottingham, as validity ends when you reach your destination station.

That is true - and reflected in the NRE journey planner, which requires two tickets for the journey if the first train stops at Beeston.

 

[pandabear]

Did the train you were on stop at Beeston? If it did then your ticket is not valid at Nottingham, as validity ends when you reach your destination station.

Yes, it did, and fair enough if the ticket was then invalid as I originally thought that hence my owning up to it.

 

[RJ]

In that case, probably for the best to try and negotiate an out of court settlement if they send a letter indicating they intend to take matters further. They might not, depending on how they feel about your mitigating circumstances.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think before out of court settlements it would be best to see what EMT actually say in their contact with the OP.

 

[cjmillsnun]

One of the most important questions that a well-trained RPI ought to have asked is for you to show the evidence of the received phone call on your mobile.

Did she ask you to do that?

She has no right to ask you to do that.

 

[LowLevel]

They have every right to ASK, and you have every right to refuse, is what I think you mean. There's nothing to stop them asking.

 

[Fare-Cop]

They have every right to ASK, and you have every right to refuse, is what I think you mean. There's nothing to stop them asking.

Quite right Lowlevel, anyone properly trained in interview techniques that comply with the Police & Criminal Evidence Act (1984) Codes of Practice will have been able to understand that and see the relevance of the question as I note that some contributors already have.

 

[pandabear]

So an update from before, I spoke to EMT customer services and they advised me that contrary to what the chap originally told me there is nothing they can do (does that sound correct?). I have since spoken to EMT prosecutions and the lady simply advised me to what for the letter, implying but not explicitly saying that I would likely be offered an out of court settlement or be taken to court, or if I'm extremely lucky then I would not have anything to settle at all should they seem it that way.

Does anyone have any extra information on this process, what is likely to happen given my circumstances and how much I might end up having to pay should it end up in such a way?

 

[Haywain]

the lady simply advised me to what for the letter, implying but not explicitly saying that I would likely be offered an out of court settlement or be taken to court, or if I'm extremely lucky then I would not have anything to settle at all should they seem it that way.

That seems to have covered the full range of possible outcomes!